There was a lot of this going around in the old sling thread too before it got locked. For better or worse its been on display in a lot of Pathfinder design and evaluation.If it's real, it's MUCH WORSE than that. It means the designers hold high-level martial characters to the standards of what sedentary game designers can do, not what actual athletes can do.http://i.imgur.com/LsvEIAj.png%3F1
just saw this image. If this is real, it means the designers design martial characters to be "realistic" instead of "fun" or "balanced"
It's even more worse than that. It means they're approaching it from entirely the wrong direction.
Figure out how what you want the martial characters to be able to do, then come up with a way to let them do it. If you want two weapon firearms to work, introduce a mechanic to allow it. If you don't, don't. Don't make the decision on whether TWF works based on whether you think a gimmick from a pre-existing item is realistic or not.I sure hope the dev's never try to actually cast a spell, either. Or wizards are going to get hosed...
The logic is preposterous; "Hmm, lemme try this thing. Unh, it's not very easy. Ergo, it can't be easy for anyone, ever. Even people who actually practice it. Herpderp."
indeed, I remember that thread and I think E agreed more often than not. I know it made me look at the sling differently in my homebrew and encouraged me to look at the importance of different ammo types for all ranged weaponry.
What if fighters used the monk save progression?I do this. It helps a little, but it's essentially a drop in the bucket and does nothing to address 'realistic martials vs fantastic magic'
Really? Because it made a hell of a lot of difference back in the second ed days. Can you give me some examples, please?
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He's referring tot he fact that it helps them with their defenses against magic.
It doesn't help them do fantastic things. It just helps them resist fantastic things a bit more.
==Aelryinth
Which, while great and definitely helpful, doesn't address the problem at hand - that magic-users can do things beyond the reach of reality, while sword-swingers are limited to "realism", even at levels above 5 or 6, which are beyond anything that could be compared to the real world.
The problem here is that, to an extent, there's not much of a solution beyond magic for everyone. Book of 9 swords did a good job of filing the serial numbers off, but it was still magic, or at least that's how I saw it. What do people want their martial characters to be able to do, exactly?
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What do people want their martial characters to be able to do, exactly?
Conglomeration of random examples I've suggested in other threads from a recent post for another poster's benefit:
Things I have, in the past, suggested for general changes:
-An overhaul of the skills system that delineates where a character has become "super-human". Every 5 ranks of Climb gives you an equivalent Climb speed (ditto Swim). Acrobatics DCs to high and long jump being reduced to more reasonable levels so people specced into it can make superhuman leaps (the Fighter jumps 30 feet in the air, just barely grabbing onto the castle wall, hauling himself over to fight...very cool, very useful). Things like that.
I have hope for this one since SKR seemed to like it.
-As a corollary to the above, change Skill Replacing Spells (Spider Climb, Invisibility, stuff like that) to have a greater benefit on people with skills ranks. Instead of Spider Climb granting a flat 20 ft. Climb speed, have it add on to the character's existing climb speed (10 ft. for people with less than 10 Climb ranks). Don't let Invisibility add +20 to the Stealth score of someone with no Stealth ranks. Casting Invisibility on the Rogue (or other Stealth specced character) should ALWAYS be a better option than just casting it on yourself.
-4+Int skill points should be the minimum.
-Eliminate (or reduce) large Feat chains. Whirlwind Attack's prereqs are f~%~ing ridiculous. I mean, come on.
-Eliminate entirely nonsensical Feat Taxes. Why do you need 13 Int to knock someone over (Trip)? It makes no damn sense that you need a PhD in kicking people in the nuts (Dirty Trick). So why do you need 13 Int and Combat Expertise?
These last three also help Fighter a ton.
Last one is tentative, and may not be stuff everyone will like.
-Give everyone some way to increase their narrative power in some manner. Let the Fighter have access to an army or something that can perform (non combat related) missions. Gathering supplies for the group, delivering ordered goods to the boonies (so you can, with a bit of wait, get custom items without visiting a town), things like that. Think the Organization rules from Way of the Wicked or the groups from Serpent's Skull. Let the Monk achieve ludicrous overland speeds, able to run from one end of the continent to another in less than a day. Let the Barbarian be the undisputed master of feats of pure strength. Sadly, the ones I suggested have since become Mythic abilities (Seven League Leap being one and that one that lets you Charge through walls and stuff), so that'll probably never be. =(
Things I have, in the past, suggested for Fighter:
-Unique, combat and non-combat related skill uses. Something along the lines of Snake Style's Sense Motive to AC (an anti-Feint, if you will). Perception or Sense Motive to analyze a target and assess his relative power level (useful both in and out of combat, makes him less reliant on people with more knowledge skills).
-Eliminate "Fighter only" Feats. Give the Fighter some extra use for a Feat like the Monk gets with stuff like Stunning/Elemental Fist, or lowered level requirement, etc. Loosens the Fighter's death grip on some interesting Feats, but give shim so much more in return.
-Weird one, and may not make much narrative sense, but...let the Fighter apply magic item properties to any item he has Weapon Training in. I'm not talking like Divine Bond or Arcane Pool, I'm saying like "I have a +3 Greatsword, and have Weapon Training in Heavy Blades and Bows. I may transfer the +3 to my Bow at-will, and back again". Essentially the Fighter is so amazingly trained or yadda yadda he acts as a conduit for martial prowess and any weapon he wields he is as good with as any other.
Things I have, in the past, suggested for Monks:
-Trim back the useless and uncomplimentary abilities, and replace them with something useful.
More vague, but that's because it's half the class. Diamond Soul is harmful to the class, Wholeness of Body sucks ass, Tongue of the Sun and Moon is WHY THE F@&& IS THAT A LEVEL 17 ABILITY?
-Add a slotless or "weapon slot" item that lets the Monk enchant his body/it like a normal weapon, please. The AoMF is too expensive and takes up an important item slot to boot.
Hand wraps are out because "It doesn't make sense that handwraps affect your kicks" (though it does make sense that Boots of Speed make your hands faster because...) but anything else works. Tattoos, maybe?
-MOAR STYLE FEATS. Style feats were the best thing that happened to the Monk. Flavorful, powerful, good for multiple different types of builds, mmmmm.
-Fuse Styles as a core ability of the class. I'll admit this one shows my own bias because the MoMS is my favorite class, but I really think it would be helpful. It's thematic, it's powerful, and there's plenty of room for it after trimming the chaff down.
Also, something like these could work.
-Remove the Alignment restrictions. Because I hate alignment restrictions with the hot passion of a million suns.
Things I have, in the past, suggested for Rogues:
-Give them something. Anything, really. Their entire class is Sneak Attack and Trapfinding. Neither is particularly interesting or powerful.
-Fix the Rogue Talents that suck (all but like 5). Add new good Rogue talents.
Example: Adaptable Wit: The Rogue may substitute his Intelligence modifier for any Charisma based skills he has as a class skill.
Reduces MAD like a baws. Lets him take his rightful place as the King of Skills (at least in the NUMBER of skills).
-Presented as an archetype (somebody asked me what I would give in exchange for Cha based class skills), but would do well as an overhaul, I think.
Hitman:The Hitman loses Bluff, Diplomacy, Intimidate, Perform, and Use Magic Device as class skills.Feint Master (Ex): A Hitman gains Improved Feint as a bonus Feat at 1st level, even if he does not meet the prerequisites. At 6th level he gains the Greater Feint Feat. At 9th level he may perform a Feint combat maneuver as a Swift action.
This replaces Uncanny Dodge and the Rogue Talent gained at 2nd level.
It's In Your Eyes (Ex): The Hitman gains a bonus on Bluff and Sense Motive checks equal to half his class level (minimum 1).
This replaces Trap Sense and the skill bonus granted by Trapfinding. A Hitman may still disable magical traps.
Deadly Sneak Attack (Ex): Starting at 4th level, a Hitman rolls d8s instead of d6s when Sneak Attacking a flatfooted opponent. This bonus does not apply to Sneak Attack gained through any other manner. At 6th level a Hitman treats any ones on the Sneak Attack dice as twos. At 8th level a Hitman treats any ones or twos on the Sneak Attack dice as 3s.
This replaces Evasion and Improved Uncanny Dodge.
Just add that stuff to the class in addition to everything else and he's probably still fine.
Increases combat ability by A.) raising his to-hit (technically, by lowering his opponent's AC), B.) Increasing damage output (by making Sneak Attack easier to achieve, and makes average damage a given by 8th level), and C.) Is thematically appropriate for the class.
To be honest I don't care about the Rogue a whole lot as a class so that's all I go specifically for Rogues. My general fixes would help him a lot though.
There's been a bunch more but that's all I can name off the top of my head.
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Which, while great and definitely helpful, doesn't address the problem at hand - that magic-users can do things beyond the reach of reality, while sword-swingers are limited to "realism", even at levels above 5 or 6, which are beyond anything that could be compared to the real world.
Worse than that, it seems that their "realism" is sometimes defined/limited by what sedentary game designers can accomplice by trying for a couple of minutes.
On the plus side, maybe that design philosophy will disappear when SKR leaves.
Considering that it wasn't SKR who made the comment that started this very thread....
Crap I thought it was him.
THE PROBLEM RUNS DEEP!
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Insulting SKR isn't very tasteful at this moment in time. Or any moment, but really bad taste right now.
Some of Rynjin's ideas are interesting, some I have already included, some are a matter of personal preference, and some are just dumb.
I don't think we're really going to get very far in this thread because there are lines that are just in different places for different people due primarily to personal experience- some people in this thread don't agree with me encouraging a link of some kind between one's physical appearance with their charisma score in my games largely because they didn't have to deal with twink I did, for example. It might be wiser to come out with your takes on rulings and your own houserules and come up with some middle ground with the people at the table. I like what I did with the fighters and monks for my own campaign setting, others might not, but if they were to show up at my house and table for a game of Freehold, I'd try to work something out with them. The biggest problem I find is a lack of DM and Player options written into the ruleset- a buffet of strangeness that both sides of the screen can choose from. I've tried to incorporate this into my stuff as best as possible, and will continue to do so as long as I play the game.
Insulting SKR isn't very tasteful at this moment in time. Or any moment, but really bad taste right now.
Not an insult. Just a hopeful statement. I don't agree with his design philosophies for a good number of things (though when he's on the ball he's a f!!!ing master) and it'll be interesting to see how Paizo is going forward.
Some of Rynjin's ideas are interesting, some I have already included, some are a matter of personal preference, and some are just dumb.
Oy, that's not very nice. =(
Which ones didn't you like? Honest question, helps me improve.
I'd be lying if I said everything was teh baist evar or fully fleshed out as ideas, but dumb?
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No really on the topic, but about game design/writing...
The biggest problem I find is a lack of DM and Player options written into the ruleset- a buffet of strangeness that both sides of the screen can choose from. I've tried to incorporate this into my stuff as best as possible, and will continue to do so as long as I play the game.
Too often, "optional rules" aren't considered optional. They're in the book so pretty much everyone uses them, so a lot of authors have stopped included them, they either include the rule, or they don't.
There are a couple of games that have improved on this through writing style, which first appeared in Burning Wheel (not necessarily novel to BW, but first time I encountered it). BW didn't really present optional rules, but rather in book commentary in an attempt to make the rules and reasons for them clearer (still a difficult book to read though and they didn't actually help all that much, but the author tried).
Dresden Files tried it as well, with in character commentary from Harry, a character supposedly interviewing him and some others. Again, trying to provide clarification to how the game worked. It was cute in concept, but at times it really cluttered the book.
Even more recent was 13th Age. The two authors each play the game slightly differently so instead of saying "here's an optional rule" they give a sidebar that describes how each designer approaches the topic differently at their own table. This works really well because you get the reason behind the rule, plus two equally valid opinions on it. Sometimes only one author gets a sidebar, which implicitly means that the other author runs it as written in the rules text.
I think there's a strong community tendency to demand the "correct way" though, so I doubt Paizo would branch out with a change in style, plus it would be a major shift in the style of how the books are written, plus the myriad different authors (not just for each book, but WITHIN some books). They do this some on the forums, which is great if you happen across it (like James Jacobs' house rule on Breath of Life), but not really available if you don't constantly search the forums.
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Went to the actual Facebook page and found the old comment thread, and later he commented this...
...it was a joke and mostly for fun. We changed the rule for game balance reasons, not based off my experimentation. Besides, if I only based rulings off my actual skill sets, the only things characters could do in the game would be design buildings, write game rules, and drink beer.
So, with THAT, I'm mostly okay with it as it doesn't (yet) set a precedent of silly rulings. :P
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Insulting SKR isn't very tasteful at this moment in time. Or any moment, but really bad taste right now.
1. Saying you don't like his RPG work isn't insulting him, it's stating YOUR opinion.
2. The man is moving so his wife can take another job. It's not like anyone has died or anything.I'm sure he's a nice guy in real life, but he often comes across as abrasive on the message boards, and it's rather undeniable that some of his rules decision have, to be exceedingly generous, been quite controversial. (To be less generous, they've sucked.)
Some of you will probably say "But Kthulhu, YOU come across as abrasive on the message boards too! More often than SKR, even!" Yeah, but I'm not representing a company that's trying to sell you stuff. If I'm an jerk, it looks bad on me. If he's an jerk, it looks bad on Paizo. And it looks even worse when his jerky comments are allowed to stand, but those of non-Paizo staff are removed.
So look on the bright side. SKR can soon feel free to be as much of a jerk as he wants to be, without making Paizo look bad while doing it.
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Some of you will probably say "But Kthulhu, YOU come across as abrasive on the message boards too! More often than SKR, even!" Yeah, but I'm not representing a company that's trying to sell you stuff. If I'm an jerk, it looks bad on me.
The most interesting and mature loophole I have ever seen.