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Since she is a CG deity do the rules allow a LG Paladin? Or is that too far from her alignment?
Thanks!
As far as I can see yes. Unless the GM says no.
If you're not in PFS, then the sky's the limit if your GM is up for it! :)
In PFS, you have to be within one step of your deity and you have to choose a deity to be a divine caster, so only folks who worship LG, LN, and NG deities need apply. (The rule is on page 10 of the Guide to PFS Organized Play 5.0.)
In my games, I usually require divine casters and related classes to be within one step each way of their chosen deity.
How about bringing in the 3.x Paladin of Freedom, whose adaptation would basically replace "lawful" with "chaotic" and "fear" with "charm/compulsion" throughout the Paladin class description? :)
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Paladin of Pharasma in PFS.
(I quit PFS)
Cleric's have the one step rule in the Core, but Paladins do not. The one step rule is for all divine casters (except Druid/Oracle/Ranger) in the GtPFS.
You must understand this isn't to prevent the Paladin of Pharasma, but rather to block Paladin of Asmodeous player who would make a mess of tables. Basically the rule isn't to stop creativity, but to stop anti social behavior by individuals in the form of character creation. ;-)
At least that is why I think the rule exists.
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You must understand this isn't to prevent the Paladin of Pharasma, but rather to block Paladin of Asmodeous player who would make a mess of tables. Basically the rule isn't to stop creativity, but to stop anti social behavior by individuals in the form of character creation. ;-)
Excuse me? I, Milton Smithson AM a Paladin of Asmodeus and I am a Pathfinder Society legal character. Which of the many Paladin abilities would you like for me to display?
By RAW in a non PFS game, you could do it, but it's unlikely there would be an Order of Paladins sponsored by Desna. in all likelihood your Paladin of Desna would be an anomaly, and one of maybe dozens in the entirety of the world (if even that many).
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Desna, the guiding star, the Core deity who's known to have entered the Abyss to deal justice to a demon lord? See also her church's role in
I can absolutely see paladins following her in particular aspects. It would raise some interesting doctrinal tensions on both sides.
Since she is a CG deity do the rules allow a LG Paladin? Or is that too far from her alignment?
Thanks!
Depends on the DM. Personally I would be leery of it for the reason you said. If you are THAT far from the deities point of view... then your really NOT the shining example of their faith that they want.
RAW, there is nothing preventing it... but I believe the intent is that Paladins also have the 'one step' rule that Clerics have. In the Faith's of Purity book they list alternate Paladin codes for the Good gods.
Well... the LG and NG gods. Nothing for the CG ones. No mention of paladins for them at all.
Some LN and NG deities have small orders of paladins, i.e. Abadar, Irori, Sarenrae and Shelyn all do. Even Aroden did while he was alive.
If you are THAT far from the deities point of view... then your really NOT the shining example of their faith that they want.
RAW, there is nothing preventing it... but I believe the intent is that Paladins also have the 'one step' rule that Clerics have. In the Faith's of Purity book they list alternate Paladin codes for the Good gods.
This, a thousand times and the important part bolded for emphasis. There's a specific archetype for paladins who want to revere one deity above all others. It's called Sacred Servant and it specifically states that you can only venerate a LG, LN, or NG deity.
Outside of PFS:
Only the Sacred Servant Paladin actually serves a Deity and derives their powers from them like a Cleric.
They effectively have the same 1-step rule (so, Deities 1 step from LG).
Other Paladins have no special relationship with a Deity, mechanically speaking,
a Paladin "of Desna" means about as much as a Brick Layer "of Desna".
There isn't any mechanical limitations or connections there.
That said, affilition and support of things in conflict with Paladin Code or requirements would eventually have consequences leading to a fall.
But since there is no mechanical link, what "Paladin of Desna" actually means is up to you to define in-game roleplaying.
If you start supporting and going along with things that go against Paladin-hood, you will fall.
Realistically, there needs to be SOMETHING in the Deity's aspect that is compatable with a LG perspective.
So worshipping Demon Lords is probably out.
(Assuming you are not a Sacred Servant Paladin)
If you only adhere to and promote the aspects of Desna that are Paladin-compatable, then you are fine.
So basically, you can't get into the Chaotic side of Desna.
But you shouldn't have TOO much conflict with a NG Cleric of Desna, even if your ideals don't exactly coincide.
You should probably consider that there is a wing of Desna followers and dogma that IS inherently Chaotic,
and that you would thusly not get along with well, although that doesn't mean open conflict.
You should consider what that group(s) might be like, and how you would define your conflict/disagreement with them.
Doesn't matter if Desn is interested, there is no actual mutual relationship invoked by a non-Sacred Servant Paladin "worshipping" her. There is no metaphysical connection to the deity involved, it's just talking about her and following social rituals dedicated to her, etc. Probably alot of "lay worshippers" aren't wholly in line with all the Deities they worship. AFAIK, many 'lay people' "worship" a very broad array of Deities, even for specific purposes relevant to that Deity's Domains/etc, and even when said Deities may be well outside their own Alignment.
Doesn't matter if Desn is interested, there is no actual mutual relationship invoked by a non-Sacred Servant Paladin "worshipping" her. There is no metaphysical connection to the deity involved, it's just talking about her and following social rituals dedicated to her, etc. Probably alot of "lay worshippers" aren't wholly in line with all the Deities they worship. AFAIK, many 'lay people' "worship" a very broad array of Deities, even for specific purposes relevant to that Deity's Domains/etc, and even when said Deities may be well outside their own Alignment.
Yeah... lots of people SAY that... but I've never heard of a DM that agreed with that interpretation. MECHANICALLY, they don't have to be attached to a god... but Fluff/description wise???
Seriously, the first paragraph....
Through a select, worthy few shines the power of the divine. Called paladins, these noble souls dedicate their swords and lives to the battle against evil. Knights, crusaders, and lawbringers,
paladins seek not just to spread divine justice but
to embody the teachings of the virtuous deities they serve.
In pursuit of their lofty goals, they adhere to ironclad laws of
morality and discipline. As reward for their righteousness,
these holy champions are blessed with boons to aid them
in their quests: powers to banish evil, heal the innocent,
and inspire the faithful. Although their convictions might
lead them into conflict with the very souls they would
save, paladins weather endless challenges of faith and dark
temptations, risking their lives to do right and fighting to
bring about a brighter future.
and then under divine bond...
Upon reaching 5th level, a paladin
forms a divine bond with her god. This bond can take one of
two forms. Once the form is chosen, it cannot be changed.
Soooo the idea of Paladins without gods are THERE... the idea of them being attached to them is ALSO still there. As the Faiths of Purity focuses on.
Does this mean that 'as written' if you don't have a god, you don't get Divine Bond?
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Doesn't matter if Desn is interested, there is no actual mutual relationship invoked by a non-Sacred Servant Paladin "worshipping" her.
Either it is a mutual relationship, or the phrase "paladin of Desna" is basically meaningless. If it is the former, then what I said stand. If it's the latter, then you can name your character whatever you want. I recommend "paladin of Shisumo." I think it has a nice ring to it.
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There's some flavour for a paladin having a strong magical tie to their deity, but by RAW they don't fall for disobeying their deity's tenants and the magic section states that "the divine forces of law and good power paladin spells." This explains why the class description reads "Through a select, worthy few shines the power of the divine" but a deity isn't required - not all divine forces are deities. It's also not required to have a metaphysical link to a "virtuous deity" to "serve" them.
As far as I can tell, the RAW best supports a state of affairs where deities with ideals friendly to paladinhood establish orders to recruit & support paladins in service of their causes, and these paladins have a strong social & emotional connection to their deities but no actual magical link. Paladins are free to worship other deities, but deities and fellow clergy that are more than one step from LG don't support paladin worshippers as well as near-LG faiths.
"Paladin of Desna" could always represent a paladin who strongly wishes to represent Desna and champion (most of) her ideals even without a metaphysical tie. After all, you can declare yourself "a lover of the arts" without implying that the arts love you back.
A GM is free to establish a closer tie between a paladin and their deity, but that's not required by RAW.
How about bringing in the 3.x Paladin of Freedom, whose adaptation would basically replace "lawful" with "chaotic" and "fear" with "charm/compulsion" throughout the Paladin class description? :)
Interestingly enough, aside from the initial description and Code of Conduct, "law" doesn't appear anywhere in the Paladin class (though "axiomatic" is in the Divine Bond and would need to be swapped for "anarchic)". Also, Paladins get charm immunity at level 8 and compulsion immunity at level 17, so you'd probably have to re-order those instead of just swapping them out.
What I tend to use are cleric alignments for paladins. When I look up Desna HERE in the Pathfinder Wiki, you'll see a list of permitted Cleric alignments. For Desna, it's NG, CG, CN. LG isn't an option, so generally if a LG cleric isn't permitted, I don't think a paladin would either.
I made a paladin of Abadar, which permits LG.
As a houserule for my campaigns all Paladins and Clerics must have a deity. They must be within 1 step on the alignment scale. This is a houserule, though personally I find it makes more sense the the alternative.
While technically a LG Paladin could worship Rovagug, it just doesn't make sense. If he continued that path of worship in any meaningful way he would eventually fall. Rather than let players traipse down that line, it have a restriciton to prevent such things.
We already have a precedent in the Martial Artist archetype for the Monk (which does not have to be lawful). The Paladin of Freedom in Unearthed Arcana could easily be converted to a paladin archetype, although I would probably strip the archetype down to what is actually required in order to make it compatible with as many existing paladin archetypes as possible.
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I think there should be an archetype to allow paladins to follow CG patrons.
Even though it is in 3pp (Way of the Wicked from Fire Mountain Games), there is an archetype for the anti-paladin for a Lord of Darkness (Asmodeus worshipper).
Why not for paladins too?
Or...you could fill the flavor with the Cleric, Inquisitor, or War Priest.
I like the paladin being unique. To remove the restriciton on alignments...it removes one of the cooler parts of playing a paladin.
I think there should be an archetype to allow paladins to follow CG patrons.
Why not for paladins too?
Because if there is no actual mechanical limitation, you don't need a mechanic to change anything.
I made a paladin of Abadar, which permits LG.Which is also supported by RAW, as Faiths of Balance clearly gives a code for Paladins of Abadar.
Irori (LN) clearly also allows Paladins, otherwise the Champion of Irori is a poorly envisioned Prestige Class.
Likewise Sacred Servant Archetype specifically mentions than NG and LN Deities are A-OK, without any fluff to suggest that this is a change vs. other Paladins, the only change is actually deriving powers FROM these Deities (which applies equally for LG Deities).
Crazy characters aside (which actual Clerics of Desna would be aware are a fraud),
there's no reason a Paladin would ever believe their power "Comes from Desna".
Such a Paladin would be in the same boat as an atheist Paladin, and any "worship" of Desna is totally elective,
in the same boat as "worshipping" 10 different gods at different days of the week and for different thematic purposes, but no real power.
They should certainly be aware their power comes from Cosmic LG-ness, which is in fact not 100% in line with Desna.
Still, if Desna is big in their culture and popular, there's nothing wrong with "worshipping" her Good side.
The only deities which COULD actually power a Paladin are LG, LN, and NG, as per Sacred Servant.
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I personally love the idea of a paladin of Desna. Desna's main foes are the evils that lie in the dark and sow fear and nightmare in people. A shining champion immune to such fearsome creatures would be useful to Desna's goal. I don't see any reason why such a character should be banned.
A real CG (or LE) Champion should need a specific Archetype, like CE has Anti-Paladin.
Barring that, you can also be an Inquisitor or Warpriest of Desna.
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One thing I've learned in the forums is that people have a lot of different opinions about the primary characteristic of paladins, and hold those opinions very strongly. Champions of a deity vs champions of an alignment is part of that.
Current RAW says you can play a LG Paladin of a CG deity.
Opinions on flavour and the meaning of the paladin range from "No, that doesn't make sense" to "you can play it but other Paladins and Clergy of Desna will look at you funny" to "no, but you can play a CG paladin of Desna."
As with all things Paladin, check with your GM.
Or...we can all just "file off the serial numbers," forget the flavor text, and view the classes as what they really are- groupings of statistics that we can use towards whatever aesthetic end we desire.
Or...we can all just "file off the serial numbers," forget the flavor text, and view the classes as what they really are- groupings of statistics that we can use towards whatever aesthetic end we desire.
Strangely, it seems Paladins are the only class for whom "filing off the serial numbers," as it were, is akin to the most heinous of acts. I'd have to assume it comes from the AD&D perspective, where Paladins were pretty much just strictly better than the fighter, but you had to 'pay' for that, in a manner of speaking, by having to follow a more restrictive code. Similarly in 3e, where they weren't strictly better, but (barring MAD issues) they were better than fighters, that type of idea continued, to the point that many people see filing off the serial numbers as not upholding your end of the bargain of trading better mechanics for more restrictive roleplaying rules. Never mind the fact that while paladins are still arguably better than fighters, they still pale in comparison to other, non-martial, classes.
You must understand this isn't to prevent the Paladin of Pharasma, but rather to block Paladin of Asmodeous player who would make a mess of tables. Basically the rule isn't to stop creativity, but to stop anti social behavior by individuals in the form of character creation. ;-)Excuse me? I, Milton Smithson AM a Paladin of Asmodeus and I am a Pathfinder Society legal character. Which of the many Paladin abilities would you like for me to display?
** spoiler omitted **
Totally awesome character concept! I love it!
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Strangely, it seems Paladins are the only class for whom "filing off the serial numbers," as it were, is akin to the most heinous of acts. I'd have to assume it comes from the AD&D perspective, where Paladins were pretty much just strictly better than the fighter, but you had to 'pay' for that, in a manner of speaking, by having to follow a more restrictive code. Similarly in 3e, where they weren't strictly better, but (barring MAD issues) they were better than fighters, that type of idea continued, to the point that many people see filing off the serial numbers as not upholding your end of the bargain of trading better mechanics for more restrictive roleplaying rules. Never mind the fact that while paladins are still arguably better than fighters, they still pale in comparison to other, non-martial, classes.
I think you're right that's why people are opposed to it, but...
you shouldn't balance flavor with mechanics, or vice versa
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Totally awesome character concept! I love it!
You must understand this isn't to prevent the Paladin of Pharasma, but rather to block Paladin of Asmodeous player who would make a mess of tables. Basically the rule isn't to stop creativity, but to stop anti social behavior by individuals in the form of character creation. ;-)Excuse me? I, Milton Smithson AM a Paladin of Asmodeus and I am a Pathfinder Society legal character. Which of the many Paladin abilities would you like for me to display?
** spoiler omitted **
Will you be at GenCon? Let's play a round, and you too can say you played with a Paladin of Asmodeus?
I've always understood it that following a Chaotic Deity does not necessitate being outright "Lawless" yourself, at least not when they are also Good. You can go that route, sure, but even the most Chaotic of Good Deities have certain codes and beliefs they adhere to, thus making a Paladin quite possible to build based upon those tenets. They just need to focus on upholding the Good side of things, and making it possible for the Chaos (vis-a-vis "personal freedom of others") to be able to flourish in a positive way. The drawback is they can never fully commit to that way of life themselves, but that is the sacrifice they make in order to allow others to enjoy it.
And soooo...
I see your Paladin of Desna, and I raise you the racial choice of GNOLL Paladin of Desna! :D
Yes, I have in fact run a Gnoll Paladin of Desna. While this might seem like a completely counter-intuitive character choice at first, considering Gnolls are typically followers of Lamashtu (The CE Deity directly opposed to Desna), there are always exceptions to the rule. Not all members of a particular race are necessarily Evil - outliers can and do exist. Admittedly this particular outlier has taken his particular outlier-ness to the extreme, but I did my best to fit his story to the setting and I think I did a passable job of it.
In any case, it's made for a fun and very driven character so far, with a fanatical devotion to destroying the cult of Lamashtu (mirroring Desna's own devotion to this cause), coupled with the irrepressible wanderlust of your typical Desnan adherent (which in no way clashes with being a paladin - after all, it allows him to quest perpetually!). It also gives him the complication of having most of his own race branding him a traitor (quite literally) and wanting him dead. It's one of my most successful and fun characters to date. :)
If it interests you at all, I actually published his back story some time ago on DA, complete with character picture. I hope it's ok to post external links? http://nadermadcat.deviantart.com/art/Jangral-Gnoll-Paladin-of-Desna-284421 371
Anyway, to sum up, my stance is that you can have paladins of virtually any deity (and race!), but it's down to how you fit their back story to the setting, and more importantly in how you roleplay them which decides if they're really effective or not. There is always the increased risk of a fall as they struggle with their unusual circumstances, but I think that just makes them a lot more interesting to play! (And touch wood, Jangral has not fallen... yet)
The answer depends entirely on your GM.
For my own campaign set in Golarion's Inner Sea, I specified in my campaign charter/campaign proposal/whatever that I expected all clerics, paladins, and inquisitors to have deities and to follow the one-step rule, and select appropriate domains for their diety, and for all other divine casters to follow the religious views as detailed in their classes (such as druids worshiping nature, oracles worshiping themes, etc), and I specified that only standard Pathfinder deities and powers were allowed.
For non-Golarion setting, even clerics aren't required to have deities, and can just worship concepts, as detailed in the class description in the Core Rulebook. For the Pathfinder Campaign Setting, it's my understanding that oracles represent the worshiping-concepts class, and all clerics should have deities. I'm not sure where it actually says that in print material though, or if it does outside of PFS.
One can argue that while a paladin might believe in a chaotic deity, he's still dedicating his life to upholding the philosophy of chaos, which makes him lawful. He's a disciplined man that protects anarchy. This also might be akin to a person using evil means to protect lives. The person is clearly evil, but fights for same cause of good deities. A deities might find value in such individuals as long as they do not go too far.
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Why would that be anti social? Wasn't in an official paizo book (mother of flies or smt) that said that Asmodeous has paladins?
It may be that I've ran into too many "bad" players and the two Paladins of Asmodeous in this thread are not those types of players.
I've ran into players (a few) that like to build characters to grief others. They do it by building characters and using Paladin levels then doing things like murdering people they are trying to save (One was in a PFS scenario looking for an injured or kidnapped pathfinder and when found and identified the character didn't want to go back to the pathfinder lodge as the VC "requested" but wanted to continue his mission. So the "Paladin" kill him and the rest of the table freaked out got pissed and the tabled died. The paladin's plan was bring him back "dead or alive" instead of dealing with the quirk of the adventure that is to help the pathfinder complete his mission.)
No one wants that type of experience. And it is too common to ignore.
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While not really talking about Paladins per se, I really enjoyed this comment by JJ.
While we're on the topic, you can apparently be True Neutral and follow any one of the Horsemen.
How does that work!? Doesn't worshiping a Horseman basically turn you into a nihilistic puppykicker?
If you're really devout and worshiping the horseman of your choice "correctly" it doesn't work. You soon become neutral evil.
The "one step away" alignments are really the domain of heretics and outliers.
This is how I pretty much see it too. If you've sworn to uphold the ideals of your god... then you should be the same alignment as your god. The farther you disagree with them... the less your following them.
Heretics are a nice word. You ARE following... but not the way the 'core church' agrees with...
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Why do people forget that at any point someone could become a Vindictive Bastard of [Insert Deity Here].
Is the archetype weaker than regular Paladin? Yeah, no question about it. But hey you don't have an alignment limitation anymore.
Might have something to do with that archetype being from the Anti-Hero's Handbook, which was printed in September of 2017 and this thread being from February of 2014