Hi
Alright so I'm new to Pathfinder, though I've played DnD a bunch of times both as player and GM in the past and I've decided to pick it up again using a premade game (Haunting of Harrowstone) for the first time. So far it's been going alright, but my party of 6 players is composed almost exclusively of curious and unlikely players that are new to the whole RPG thing... they've never played dnd, but they're pretty willing to learn (though reluctant to do any "nerd" stuff like speaking in character or over analyzing)and have been pretty thankful of the work I've done for them. In short, they're enjoying themselves... up til now.
My problem seems to rest on many issues, so bear with me, because I want to give you a good idea of what's going on. They started exploring the haunted prison last session and I had a pretty hard time to manage the whole thing.
I'm used to make my own adventures and I usually spend little time doing "dungeon explorations" on lengthy periods of times (like whole sessions). Since they're new and I kept telling them they can proceed pretty much however they want, they decided to go pretty much separate ways. I tried numerous times (in vain) to make them understand how this game works, meaning how they need to act as their character logically would... that means being cautious and making the distinction between what they know as a player and as a character (they can't instinctively know their friends are in danger and such).
Anyway,so they went separate ways on separate floors and, as I had to try to be detailed and immersive when I told them what they stumbled upon, each turn quickly turned out to be going way to slowly, especially for the characters that stumbled upon less interesting stuff. So to speed things up I spent less time being descriptive and also I skipped a bunch of haunts (that I find terribly boring) and modified some encounters like animated objects that I found too corny. But as I was doing that, I didn't have time to replace the haunts I was getting rid of, so the first floor turned into a huge empty husk. As the whole thing seemed to turn out like a huge boring prison, the players quickly took to misuse (in my interpretation) the perception skill, basically just saying they make a perception roll in ANY room they entered for "anything unusual" in general after I describe the room with what I consider to be obvious details. The point being I don't want them making perception rolls at every turn, sometimes twice a turn, leaving me with blank stares whenever I tell them they don't see anything out of the ordinary in general. They either think their roll wasn't high enough when it was, or that I'm not being fair if they get a high roll and there's nothing to be found. I also tell them to be more specific when they want to make a perception roll, to little avail as they always find their way back to just saying "I dunno, something unusual" whenever I ask them what they're looking for exactly or where are they investigating in the room.
So with them going around in every direction, asking to find unspecific "unusal" detail,I quickly got overwhelmed. I started flipping through the adventure book's pages to detail the rooms, draw the thing on their map and help them through their actions (they don't know most of the rules the first time they try using it, at my request usually). This had me skipping and forgetting a lot of things, which in turn had them scatter around more as nothing too bad was happening. The wizard did stumble upon 2 encounters, but as he's new, he used his most powerful spells right away on small encounters that would have required the rest of the players to vanquish, forcing them to group up.
As things got out of control for me, two players ventured too far ahead and were nearly killed (they were incapacitated for at least 1 hour in the result) by an encounter that they persisted in trying to handle on their own, telling the rest of the players that they were going to be fine.
The whole thing turned out to be quite boring for 4 of the 6 players who only got to do usually inconclusive perception rolls and frustrating for 2 players that were "cheaply" removed from the action. And from the perspective of a GM, the whole thing was a disaster, with players sighing, rolling eyes, playing games on their phone, etc.
So obviously, I will make notes for the next game (I'm used to wing things through with very good effect or so I've been told and proved, I guess, as I converted several people to the game through the years)so I don't have to search for the information I need AND for the details of every action they attempt.
But this being said I'm having a hard time with dungeon exploration. So my questions are the following:
1) How to you handle turns during this phase of the game? I tried to stick to the combat round format with 1 standard action and 1 move.
2) How do you manage the perception skill during dungeon exploration?
3) Do you usually try to force this kind of group to stick together or do you allow them to roam around and if you do, how do you manage simultaneous combats and such?
3) How do you keep things going smoothly and interesting without having to speed things up too much?
Kudos for trying to manage that many dispersed players for that long....
1) How to you handle turns during this phase of the game? I tried to stick to the combat round format with 1 standard action and 1 move.2) How do you manage the perception skill during dungeon exploration?
3) Do you usually try to force this kind of group to stick together or do you allow them to roam around and if you do, how do you manage simultaneous combats and such?
3) How do you keep things going smoothly and interesting without having to speed things up too much?
1_ in combat.. combat rounds... out of combat, single questions directed to players for general actions, then give them the response, but they have to wait for the other rooms before there is much 'follow up' to the scene
2_ I ask alot whenever there is something to possibly find (but I punish metagamers who try to search b/c a roll was required)
3_ sticking together is an implied social contact... people who wander off on their own a likely to get killed by a challenge designed to threaten the entire party
4_ more art than science, and it requires alot of synergy from the players
1 Only go into turn order when there is a battle. These perception checks are probably the result of people trying to find a use for their actions. Normally I'd just ask the group what they're doing and let people act in whatever order they like.
2 If what they're doing is annoying then don't let them do it. Or say "there's nothing there" instead of "you don't find anything" which makes it sound like there's something to find. (Even if there is a secret door they failed to find, their character believes there's nothing there.)
3 Force them to stick together. Never split the group. Most of your problems seem to come from jumping around all over the place. Hopefully your players will learn this from getting attacked by enemies they can't take on their own.
3 I'd suggest speeding things up whenever possible.
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A lot of the issues you’re bringing up seem to be a combination of expectations management & play style.
This can be incredibly frustrating for newer players who haven’t been indoctrinated into the “right” way of doing things, but can also be very cool as it can challenge how you as a GM view / run things for future players by being able to see and realize core assumptions you may be making about play style without even realizing it.
First of all, make sure that your players understand that it’s a simulationist sort of thing – the “rounds” and actions are supposed to represent what meaningful things their characters can accomplish in approximately six seconds, not be an accurate representation of what they would like to accomplish in the whole of the combat. This is one of those funny ones in that newer players seem to understand and follow this part better than a lot of veteran players who sometimes have their characters try to give the verbal equivalent of the Gettysburg Address as a free action. I’ve found with newer players that making it much more descriptive after all the dice rolls are in helps create a narrative that will draw them in and give them the sense of ownership that “roll to hit, roll to damage” often fails to deliver. (I'm assuming you do realize that "rounds" only generally matter in combat or social situations that may quickly escalate to combat or conflict resolution with specific timing needed.)
“Don’t split the party is a tried and true trope of both RPGs & horror movies”. If your new player group is having issues conceptualizing the game as an RPG due to a lack of experience, you may want to frame your answers and your narrative a bit more like that of a horror movie (especially with Carrion Crown). If they want to split up, you may want to ask the players what they think might happen to characters in a horror movie when making that decision…
Regarding Perception, it is mostly a passive skill in Pathfinder, which is to say that if there is something there to be seen a roll is made (whether or not the players specify that they are looking). This is one of the most common “table variation” rules I’ve seen as many of us have carryover from prior versions of D&D/PF. Short term, you may want to make the relevant rolls for them and advise them when they find something, which will also let you “fudge rolls” if you need to in order to keep your game running at a better pace.
If a part DOES split, a lot of it is going to vary based on who is doing what, where and when. If the party is going to completely different towns/cities/continents/planes for an extended period of time, the best thing to do may be to break the game at that point and run them separately. If they are only going a few rooms away, then it’s a bit more problematic with having to ask other players to leave the table so that they don’t get the “sudden intuition” that the rest of their party may be bleeding out in a spiked pit trap.
Practice, sage advice (though not the Skip Williams variety), and more practice… seriously, this is something that most everyone has issues with when they first start running games and pacing is always a challenge when you have new players, no matter how experienced the GM is.
On a side note, have you thought about maybe running your new players through something more akin to an intro module, like maybe the Beginner’s Box stuff? It’s literally designed for new players & new GMs to be introduced to the game.
Hope that helps.
-TimD
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Surprised you found haunts boring. They were an absolute hit at my table. I tended to really play up the action of them though. I also houseruled in a halucination that the PCs experiecne right before the haunt manifests. The PCs are actually reliving the experience that made the ahunt in the first place. Ton of fun.
your questions though:
1. I dont do turns out of combat. I let players enter a room and make a percpetion check. If they roll well enough they spot any traps, secrets, things out of the ordinary. If they dont they just see whats in the room and have it described to them.
2. See #1.
3. My players generally wouldnt split in a haunted mansion of violence and death. They might when they just arrived in a new or familiar village or town though. We are old hands at this RPG thing so we understand that spiltting the party means splitting the face time. That said when the party is split I try not to neglect others as best as possible. Sometimes I will do "cut scene" or "meanwhile..." and move between the split memebers so people are not waiting forever to act.
Seperate combats are really tricky. I might have everyone roll intative and run it all together as one big combat. So haunt is happening downstairs to group A while monsters are attacking group B up stairs. This way everyone is engaged. If one group gets out of their situation maybe a perception roll will tip them off to noise or something amiss with their friends.
4. see second paragraph of answer 3. I try to my best to keep everyone involved at all times. Obviously that cant always happen so when it doesnt I try and move things along as best I can.
The grognard in me wishes you would have killed off your players for splitting in such a dangerous place. The modern gamer in me thinks maybe you should have tried to scare them back together. It is hard to say whats best. I dont have any experience with your players and their expectations. Hopefully my advice helps.
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1) How to you handle turns during this phase of the game? I tried to stick to the combat round format with 1 standard action and 1 move.
2) How do you manage the perception skill during dungeon exploration?
3) Do you usually try to force this kind of group to stick together or do you allow them to roam around and if you do, how do you manage simultaneous combats and such?
3) How do you keep things going smoothly and interesting without having to speed things up too much?
1) When haunts are involved I present the encounters like scary campfire stories. I avoid combat rounds entirely and switch between characters when it's dramatically interesting - usually at a suspenseful moment.
2) If it's meant to be scary, I roll their perception rolls for them and keep the results secret. Removing this certainty from the players makes them more careful and curious.
3) If you have a group that likes to split up, insert more traps and less monsters into the encounter. Traps can debilitate a character without killing them, and leave them calling/screaming for help. Escaping traps will encourage characters to work together. For simultaneous combats, I give each group/character about three rounds before switching. I'll usually make the monsters more mobile, to lure the characters into the same encounter.
4) This is a skill you just need to practice. The only advice I can offer is never treat an encounter/room as 'boring', even if there's nothing of importance in it. A well described pile of useless junk can keep a player intrigued for longer than you'd imagine.
Good luck!
Step 1...Tell them this joke
How many adventures does it take to screw in aALL OF THEM! DONT SPLIT THE PARTY! Repeat until they get the message.
That alone will make the game go alot faster, and those empty rooms be alot more tedious.
Step 2...
I dont know if you picked a good begining adventure for either your style or theirs. I think something a little more traditional like dragons demand might be a good start. I'd normally have suggested the begginer box, but given you've already started with the normal rules that might not work out.
Step 3...
You need to get them to act and think in character. If they think that talking in character is too 'nerdy' you might want to have a conversation with them. Its one thing if they arent comfortable, or dont know how to do it. But if they honestly have a negative feeling for roleplaying of any kind when playing a roleplaying game, you are always going to have issues. Its less about the actual roleplay and more the mentality. They will never get 'into' the game if they always treat it like a video game or something.
Step 4...
You dont need all those rooms. Paizo goes to great lengths to make their buildings, dungeosn etc make sense. But it can be really boring to search through 9 empty store rooms to find the 1 room in that hall that is important. Especially with this kind of group its probably just fine to say 'you go down a hallway with several rooms that when you look inside dont have much of interest in them, but then there are 2 doors at the end of the hall' where the 2 doors at the end are the ones that actually matter. If they want to go back and really look around in those other rooms let them, but dont go into detail about each and every room, and you can easily just give it a brief once over and direct them past it if its unimportant.
Step 5...
You need to remind yourself to differentiate between what the player can do and what the character can do. You seem intent on them being specific about 'what they are looking for' when they make perception checks. But the truth is, they are inexperience roleplayers, who likely arent crack detectives in their day jobs. Their characters are likely MUCH better at knowing where and how to look for 'clues' or important details then the players themselves. Thats why there is a search aspect to the perception skill in the first place. The players themselves shouldnt have to think of where they need to look for things any more then the fighter's player needs to be good at swinging a sword, or the cleric's player needs to have the ability to heal grievous injuries with a touch.
Step 6...
How many adventurers does itALL OF THEM DONT SPLIT THE PARTY!
They won't know if they rolled high or low and won't keep trying to search more on low rolls that way.
I wouldn't count on that to speed things up. The GM might roll a 20, the PC finds nothing because there's nothing to find, the player assumes they rolled low, and keeps on searching.
Thank you all for your help. Many suggestions I see here ressembles what I always did before, but the fact that it's the first time I'm using a premade quest and the first time I'm playing Pathfinder (which seems to me has more rules) had me trying to play this like a board game instead of the RPG that it is. I have 3 more questions.
1) Should I make these changes without telling them or should I take some time prior to the game to speak of the perception check, the splitting of the group and the simulator aspects of a roleplaying game?
2) How do you guys deal with the drawing of the dungeon? Do you have the players draw it? Do you draw it for them? Do you only draw when there's a special encounter or a combat? Do you draw it in advance?
3) I'm also curious about you guys manage the detect magic/evil/undead. My players make use of it so much that sometimes it's hard to just keep things secret from them without them contesting it.
Thank you all for your help.
You’re welcome!
1) Should I make these changes without telling them or should I take some time prior to the game to speak of the perception check, the splitting of the group and the simulator aspects of a roleplaying game?
GM-Player communication is key in any RPG. As you get more experienced you can fudge it here & there with players you know well to assist in dramatic tension and meta-game curve balls, but just starting out its much better to have as much system transparency as you can with your players so that everyone is on the same page. Things that are perceived “nerfs” or rules changes are especially important – it keeps OOP confusion from bleeding into the game (as the above mentioned rolling for perceptions and the players assuming that their characters keep getting low-roll results rather than there not being anything of note to find).
2) How do you guys deal with the drawing of the dungeon? Do you have the players draw it? Do you draw it for them? Do you only draw when there's a special encounter or a combat? Do you draw it in advance?
Wow. Now we’re talking old school. :) I can’t remember the last time I had a PC draw out a dungeon as they went through it. Late 90’s, I think.
In general, it’s only important to draw things out if there is combat or if there is something that PC spacing is important for (such as a trap).
PF assumes mini use in combat, so a lot of people will draw maps of areas they antipate combat to occur in. If the area is simple, it’s pretty easy to draw just before combat. If its more complicated, I prefer to draw it out before hand. This is one of those “most people do it at least a little differently” areas of Pathfinder. It pretty much all comes down to personal preference of the GM.
Oh, and quick side note on this – just before combat can also be a good time to give players a break while you draw out the map, but this can also be bad for some groups with attention-span challenged players.
3) I'm also curious about you guys manage the detect magic/evil/undead. My players make use of it so much that sometimes it's hard to just keep things secret from them without them contesting it.
Most detects are a standard action to case and must be concentrated on to be very effective. If PCs are having discussions about what they are detecting as they are moving through an inhabited area, the denizens of that area will likely have a chance to hear them coming and prepare an unwelcome surprise.
It may be another area to discuss with your players out of game as they may not realize that their spell casting & in-play discussion may both slow their progress and let any enemies that they may not yet be aware of know that they are coming.Other than that, I’ve mostly seen them work as intended.
Another side note – you may want to make sure you read more closely on the spells & effects your PCs use often as well, one of the more common things I’ve seen with folks new to PF is the fact that they are unaware that “minor evil” doesn’t show up to Detect Evil, only those with sufficient hit dice, an aura class ability, etc.
-TimD
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"Don't split the party" is a mantra of mine and many other gaming groups. It is a lesson we learned in blood, and sometimes it is a lesson learned in blood. That module is a rather haunt intensive module, at least until the basement., the Haunts are also balanced in the module to consume party resources, provide experience, and set atmosphere. You should probably try and reintroduce them, and try to illustrate to the players that traveling alone can be harmful to your health.
If your just starting you might be better off with running some PFS scenarios, which are a lot tighter, you could string a few together to make a mini campaign. Or run something like Dragon's Demand, where the early dungeon stuff is smaller and more linear
GM-Player communication is key in any RPG. As you get more experienced you can fudge it here & there with players you know well to assist in dramatic tension and meta-game curve balls, but just starting out its much better to have as much system transparency as you can with your players so that everyone is on the same page. Things that are perceived “nerfs” or rules changes are especially important – it keeps OOP confusion from bleeding into the game (as the above mentioned rolling for perceptions and the players assuming that their characters keep getting low-roll results rather than there not being anything of note to find).
I agree! My main fear with this is that they'll start thinking I am incompetent and modifying the rules to limit their freedom of action.
Wow. Now we’re talking old school. :) I can’t remember the last time I had a PC draw out a dungeon as they went through it. Late 90’s, I think
Well, here's my story with DnD. My father used to play it in the 70s and carried over all his first edition books during his adulthood. They were my favorite reading when I was a child. I'd always have the bestiary as a bedside reading. So he had my brother, some friends and I play a bunch of times when we were 8-9 years old and that's how we'd proceed. We'd print grid sheets and tape them together as we were exploring the dungeon. It seemed to work well at the time!
I'm 28 now and since then I've played a few times with the second and the third edition as both GM and player. I never was one to look up every rules and I mostly GMed the way I had seen others do it, with rules coming in handy from time to time, but since I was playing with new players, it was easy to just say something without people being able to tell if I was making it up or being faithful to the game. Since I'm not very good at conceptualizing dungeons, I never really got around to ask myself how it was done. Like you said, I'd usually draw small encounter maps in advance or on the spot on a 8 1/2 11 blank sheet (not even a grid) and that was it.
So this is, as I said, a case where I seemed to be doing the right thing but having a dungeon map to follow and picking up PF and focusing on the rules had me trying to play this like a board game. Like I wanted to take this opportunity (switching to PF) to do it right, addressing my faults as a GM from when I played DnD without focusing on the rules.
As for the detect magic/evil spell, since most of the time is spent outside the combat phase which is the only time standard and movement actions must be taken into account, it doesn't imply much to concentrate "3 turns". That's how I perceive it. Whenever my paladin makes a detect evil spell, whether she's meeting up with a new NPC or entering a room, I can't just say "well this takes a standard action... so you need 3 turn to really figure out something" since turns aren't that big a deal outside combat.
I guess this brings to question how do you handle turns outside combat? I usually ask what they're doing after describing a situation and if it gets out of hand I set up an order of action from the player to my left to the player to my right. Thing is I got 6 players, some of which are pretty shy, and no definite leader to just give the final word. It makes things especially hard when there's an interaction with an NPC, which they seem to address like it's a video game, with them expecting me to give them the info they need and that's it.
I agree! My main fear with this is that they'll start thinking I am incompetent and modifying the rules to limit their freedom of action.
First off, there is a huge difference between inexperience and incompetency. One is generally much more correctable than the other and the fact that you’re on these boards looking for advice on how to be a better GM says a lot. Kudos to you on that.
RE: Maps
I’ve recently started to use the handy-dandy flip mats that Paizo does. Not only because I’m lazy, but because they look great and many are incredibly handy. If you’ve the finances to be able to afford a few, I highly recommend them for creating some simple areas to get started.
(Though sadly, once they are gone, they are GONE. I’ve been trying to find Flip-Mat: City Streets for a price less than that of a car for awhile and thus far failing miserably. If the powers-that-be are reading this, please add another urban / streets map to the line-up soon!)
The “industry standard”, however, is probably the Chessex 1” inch battle mats made of vinyl . Those are base I’ve seen for the majority of maps I’ve seen drawn in the last 15 or so years of gaming. Others may have had different experiences.
I’m not sure where you live or what your time constraints are, but I might also encourage you to try to see if there are some PFS games in your area to either try playing or at least observing. I always find it interesting to see how folks do the same things I do in different manners and that’s one thing I’ve enjoyed most about the Society since I started playing just shy of a year ago.
RE: Detect Evil / Magic
Paladins (and, by extension, Inquisitors) are a somewhat odd area on the “detect” spectrum. They don’t actually have to cast spells to get their detect “going”, instead they are a spell-like ability. Thematically, this makes them both more interesting (as it’s a bit cooler to just focus your senses) and more complicated (as there is much less information to give away what they are doing). This is also where I often see house rules come in for NPCs noticing the paladin giving the “the fuzzy eyeball” and perhaps returning the “detect favor” (as the detect evil is a Sp, the paladin’s detect will itself detect as magical while it is active and will also linger for a few rounds, per the detect magic rules).
I’ve found that when this causes things to drag, the best option to reign it in is for it to have negative social consequences or inopportune timing on the “stun” from the overwhelming aura. Not to animate the dead horse from above, but again, it might be best to discuss some of your concerns with your players and make sure that you’re on the same page.
Hope that helps.
-TimD
As Galnörag sez "Don't split the party". First explain to them OOC that this makes twice as much work for you,m and half as much fun for them. You can then enforce this IC by a number of ways.
Read the detect spells. It's surprising how little will block and what few things detect as evil.
Some thug in a bar? Not evil. Not even the commoner who has murdered his wife and buried her in the cornfield.
Also even if you use the detect spells out of combat, unless you are a paladin, it takes 18 seconds to get all the information from them. That's a lot of time. Especially mid-conversation. It may be workable during exploration, but if they really think they are going to sweep and entire dungeon with the Detect spells, then that is going to take hours.
As for maps, I like to have them pre-drawn. When I ran HoH, I had the entire prison mapped out on gaming paper. Pausing at the beginning of combat to draw the map really takes players out of the immersive experience.
You should definitely use the haunts in Harrowstone, even if you don't want to use the haunt mechanic, having all the spooky and creepy things happening to them helps them realize they are actually in a seriously haunted prison.
What sane person splits up to go wandering around a haunted prison? If they continue to do so, use the encounters to punish them. There are several monsters or haunts in the prison that would be extremely challenging or downright deadly to a solo character.
If you don't want to kill off a character completely, just knock them unconscious and let the rest of the party find them later, perhaps in a creepy position, like hanging from the ceiling with hooks in them, or tied to the rack, or locked in cell wearing prison garb.
What sane person splits up to go wandering around a haunted prison?
Let's split up, gang! Shaggy and Scooby and the girl with the glasses can check out the torture chamber in the basement while me and the attractive girl check out the warden's private quarters...
In Scooby Doo: splitting up = winning
In PF: splitting up = TPK
CRs and general strengths/weaknesses of encounters in modules are based on the assumption of a 4-person crew capable of dishing out a variety of different attack types, buffs, and powers. Picture 4 level 1 PCs, a cleric, wizard, fighter and rogue entering a graveyard and suddenly a ghoul pops up behind a tombstone. Said ghoul gets a surprise round, hits the rogue and that PC is paralyzed. Round 1 begins.
Initiative:
Wizard
Ghoul
Fighter
Cleric
Wizard: 5' step; Ray of Frost +3 (1d3 +2) hits and deals 4 damage
Ghoul: 5' step to wizard; bite +3 (1d6 +1), 2 claws (1d6 +1) hits with claws and deals 9 damage; wizard is paralyzed and dying
Fighter: moves to flank (draws AoO from ghoul; AoO misses); greatsword +6 (2d6 +8) hits and deals 15 damage finishing the ghoul
Cleric: moves to wizard and casts Cure Light Wounds healing 4 HP
Now, imagine if just the rogue were off, on his own. Surprise round: fight over; remaining PCs are now facing 2 ghouls.
You can run the same exercise against any CR 1 encounter. Maybe it's 4 kobold warrior 1; 1 mite and 2 fire beetles; a goblin druid 1 and 4 trained bats. Whatever the case it would be disastrous for a single PC to meet the encounter head on, alone, and have to deal with it.
What sane person splits up to go wandering around a haunted prison?Let's split up, gang! Shaggy and Scooby and the girl with the glasses can check out the torture chamber in the basement while me and the attractive girl check out the warden's private quarters...
I've always wondered where the "you can't kill PCs unless the players are OK with it" folks got that idea.
Scooby-Freakin'-Doo! Of course! It all makes sense now...-TimD