Plane shift Vs. Planar Binding


Advice


Hi all !

So I'm running Shackled City (me is the DM) with pathfinder rules, we are presently middle chapter 7 and only had +/- 8 deaths since the start of the campaign ( half of which were unraisable)

But now there`s one death that the wizard really can't forgive so he's hellbent on finding a way to have someone cast true resurrection (since the body is missing, dumped in the fire of Occipitus, and only a finger is left that the devil that manipulated everyone is keeping).

So my wizard is looking at finding someone with True Res. Of course, no one in Cauldron that is high level... so he's thinking about teleporting around and coming back to Cauldron but even then not sure to find a cleric high level enough... So he's thinking about Celestials/Angels. But since he does not have Planar Binding (yet) and even if he did, is not necessarily powerful enough to bring a celestial that is powerful enough to cast lvl 9 cleric spells (using all the binding/calling outsiders mechanics), he's thinking about simply plane shifting to Celestia/Elysium/Heaven/whatever and going to ask around directly.

I am not sure how to handle this if he goes through with his plan.

My own reflex would be that 1- They wouldn't necessarily be seen as deserving a meeting with such powerful beings 2- even if they did, they wouldn't meddle in the things of mortals, dead is dead, even if it was unjust and by the hand of devils....

But then the wizard would want to RP it, and am wondering about other pointers on why Lawful Good beings would refuse to bring someone`s friend to life if they were asked to. At the same time I`m never a fan of circumventing mechanics; why would spell X would exist if you could use X instead which is easier (in this case, Im not high level enough to planar bind so Ill plane shift because it`s easier). I find it hard to make the difference between the players being crafty and just exploiting or going around a rule.


Observations:

So they're around 9th level and you've had 8 character deaths?

Are you the DM? Are you also using the wizard as a DMPC or is this a seperate player?

Are you looking for a mechanical way or an RP way of doing this?

RP-wise, Lawful Good or not, there are many reasons not to help, just as there are many reasons to help.

Reincarnate (Druid 4) will work with the finger you have left.

Otherwise, you have the basic start of a sidequest.


Going to need a bit more then this to help you out.

Finding 9th level caster even in the heavens will be difficult but it could lead to a great story.


When he say's "my wizard" I believe he is referring to another player's character, and is simply an attached GM.


Sounds like a great opportunity to RP it out.
Just planeshifting there does not result in hordes of Resurrection casting Celestials bending over to please you.
There's millions or billions of residents of the Outer Planes, and most of them can't do Resurrection.
Dealing with Celestial society, perhaps some real reckonings with Alignment and character motivation/personality,
some interesting opportunities to use "Good" NPCs in an unusual way/ with different contrasts,
some good old hack and slash and alakazam with violent dramas intersecting Celestial society somehow,
and yeah, eventually the guys gets his Resurrection... ideally, this adventure continues to have relevance,
and maybe will come back to CAULDRON somehow to spice up things there.


darkwarriorkarg wrote:

Observations:

So they're around 9th level and you've had 8 character deaths?

Are you the DM? Are you also using the wizard as a DMPC or is this a seperate player?

Are you looking for a mechanical way or an RP way of doing this?

RP-wise, Lawful Good or not, there are many reasons not to help, just as there are many reasons to help.

Reincarnate (Druid 4) will work with the finger you have left.

Otherwise, you have the basic start of a sidequest.

they are level 11, and yes 8 character death, the wizard died three times alone, first at lower level because of ennemy death attack, another time being constricted by a noble salamander where everyone was too busy to notice him going limp (fighter was dominated, cleric was fending off the fighter, a succubus was harassing everyone), then the fighter died against a bebilith (thanks to the druid, that sent the bebilith in the same pit the fighter fell in, making it a 1 vs. 1 instead of 1 vs. 5) but roleplayed it out and made a pact with a devil to come back to life in exchange that he has to become lord of occipitus and forward the devil agenda, then the ranger got fire giant to the face. Then to become lords of Occipitus (a semi-plane of the Abyss) they had to sacrifice an ally. The cleric sacrificed himself and his gods managed to intervene in his favor and send him back because they wanted a chance for a good guy to rule that plane of the abyss, but while that was happening the fighter took the druid and threw him in the fire, fulfilling the test of sacrifice and also gaining the powers of a ruler of Occipitus. When cleric came back, he used one of his newfound powers (a 1/year wish while in the fortress of Occi) to bring back the wizard to life, the wizard suspected the fighter made a deal with a devil so immediately asked him about it, to which the fighter used HIS wish to say " I WISH HIM DEAD " turning the wizard into an intelligence undead (he got his wish, but corrupted ya'know). Later on, the sorcerer (same player as the now dead ranger) thought he could take on a T-Rex in a random encounter by himself and got swallowed whole, and during an epic fight the barbarian (dead druid's player) and the cleric got killed by the leader of the cathedral they were fighting against, very epic...

So yeah, may deaths, 2 years out of game of playing almost every friday :)

Wizard is a PC, I am the DM.

The finger is being kept by the devil who dumped the body in the fire, so they don't have it "handy" (hurr hurr) so reincarnate or resurrections are not options, nor is wish since the PCs that have access to the 1/year either are dead or had to quit the party AND have used it anyway.

I am looking for an RP way because since I'm following a campaign that I want to bring to its end (if there's characters left alive) they can't leave on long side-quests because time is against them.

Then, when I look how hard it is to planar bind, especially something that can cast level 9 spells, I don<t want it replaced by a simple plane shift that makes it, by the mechanics super easy.

But if I refuse it, I don't want it to be too : no because no, I want it to make sense on why Good Celestials would refuse to raise a good guy if asked directly.

I`d be very curious in those reasons not to help.


Quandary wrote:

Sounds like a great opportunity to RP it out.

Just planeshifting there does not result in hordes of Resurrection casting Celestials bending over to please you.
There's millions or billions of residents of the Outer Planes, and most of them can't do Resurrection.
Dealing with Celestial society, perhaps some real reckonings with Alignment and character motivation/personality,
some interesting opportunities to use "Good" NPCs in an unusual way/ with different contrasts,
some good old hack and slash and alakazam with violent dramas intersecting Celestial society somehow,
and yeah, eventually the guys gets his Resurrection... ideally, this adventure continues to have relevance,
and maybe will come back to CAULDRON somehow to spice up things there.

It seems that it sparked a few ideas in your head, I`d be very interested to know what you think of it more in details. One qualm I have as I was saying is the time constriction, at the point they are in the story, the bad guys have put the main events in motion, so leaving for too long (aka interesting sidequest) could actually make them fail the campaign. But whether they get the resurrection or not, I want them to get a yay or nay with a little bit more flavor than `fine get your resurrection now let`s get back to the story` or `nope sorry, that's not how it works`

But as you said, I don`t believe you can just show up and ask someone for res, but I am wondering how to properly RP and illustrate that fact instead of plain boring answers

I agree it could spark some interesting good on good action and RP.


anyone ? :/


It is true that most angels can have basic ressurection but true resurection, it takes a priest of a high faith to cast and even amongst planar beings, it is not a common power to have. You could have your players have the body raised with the spell in exchange for accepting willingly a quest spell line to provide services in exchange.

Also, you may ask for rolls such as knowledge religion and/or local and/or planes to even being by locating such a person in heavens.

To be honest, it might be simpler to just locate someone of sufficient enough power in the real world since such a high character will defenitely have legendary feats and accomplishments to hear about.

The other thing to consider is the actual cost of the spell too (Diamond worth 25000 gold). Dont forget to consider that 90% of the time, they would not cast the spell for someone or a party whos alignement does not matches the ones of the priest/planar beings as well.

SO it might make for interesting quests to find the person able to help and then acquire the diamond either through stealing, mining or retrieving it from a treasure horde (dragon anyone?).

Note that stealing the diamond may not please and/or be accepted by beings such as angels..


I very much like all those ideas thank you Chillsabre.

The idea behind finding a Celestial instead of a regular high level priest is trying to bank on the : help us, we are doing good, and you are good, so you should help us because you are good.

But I like the ideas of Quest/Gaea's spell, and or reservations if the whole party is not of the right alignment.

Also the diamond, it is true that is a problem on its own finding a diamond like that, I'll have to keep this in mind.


The one problem as can figure it, is that celestials with spell-likes don't cost money.

But otherwise, excellent all-over.


OP Kyujaq, have you played this out yet? What happened?

Doug M.


Tacticslion wrote:

The one problem as can figure it, is that celestials with spell-likes don't cost money.

But otherwise, excellent all-over.

Celestials with spell-likes cost whatever they say they cost. They might require the petitioner to give up everything they hold dear to prove that they truly need the deceased above all else. They might require a thousand days of servitude. Or (since we've ruled out planar binding) they might just holy word you where you stand for your insolence at attempting to upset the natural order without going through proper channels.


It hasn't been played out yet, it has been postponed for more urgent matters, the PC that betrayed the group came back to town and revealed the secret of the wizard to the city of Cauldron (that he is an undead) in the hopes that if the wizard told the city that the fighter betrayed them and worked with the devils, "it's your word against his, but who would believe an undead"

More to come...

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