According to the Acrobatics skill description, you can make an Acrobatics check to avoid taking an attack of opportunity when moving through a threatened area.
This check:
- does not cost you an action
- can be made untrained
- doesn't have any other costs (if you accept the +10 DC for moving at your full speed)
- has no penalties for failing (other than that your enemy gets to make the AOO)
From the skill description it seems to be a no-brainer: whenever you can make an acrobatics check to avoid an AOO, you should always make that roll.
But then again, the Combat chapter has a whole section on AOOs (which cross references several other rules that interact with AOOs) - and it doesn't mention this at all.
Its almost as if Acrobatics is this obscure loophole in the rules that gives you an extra chance not to get hit, but only if you know about it. (as a reward for having studied the skill descriptions?)
Is the Acrobatics check to avoid an AOO really that good? Or am I missing something?
Is there any reason why that Acrobatics check doesn't happen automatically, as part of resolving the AOO, whenever the provoking character qualifies for it?
If you fail the Arcobatics check, you not only provoke an attack of opportunity but end the move action. Sometimes it's more important to suck an AoO for a guaranteed chance of movement, particulary if you have the Mobility feat and/or a high AC.
It's against CMD so eventually it becomes pretty impossible to make the checks.
It halves your speed. +10 DC to move full speed is like saying "Yeah I want to fail this check." Lets look at a CMD of a CR10 monster. At that level a 10th level character likely has about a +low 20ish Acrobatics if he was really pumping it. Armor check Penalty applies as well. Now add +10 for moving full speed. The Fire Giant has an effective CMD of 41. Good luck.
Eating the Attack of Opportunity protects your friends should they want to move through it's threatened area.
If you fail the Arcobatics check, you not only provoke an attack of opportunity but end the move action. Sometimes it's more important to suck an AoO for a guaranteed chance of movement, particulary if you have the Mobility feat and/or a high AC.
Yeah, I don't think I've ever seen another GM enforce that. Most think you get to keep moving just fine. Of course, when the GM is letting my fellow players get away with it, I'm certainly not going to point it out...
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The movement penalty is the only reason I ever decline an acrobatics check.
Sometimes, half-speed-movement, even for just one square, won't cut it.
Agreed. If you must move your full rate, just take the AoO. In most cases acrobatics is a harmless thing to try that might work. Remember Armor Check Penalties.
Acrobatics is unlikely to work unless you are good at it, but there's no harm in trying. Magda avoids AoOs with acrobatics fairly frequently. At higher levels it seems to fail about half the time.
I've twice seen NPC foes use acrobatics/tumbling to avoid AoOs, in hundreds of battles. I'd like to see it more. I'm trying to use it more when I GM.
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If you fail the Arcobatics check, you not only provoke an attack of opportunity but end the move action. Sometimes it's more important to suck an AoO for a guaranteed chance of movement, particulary if you have the Mobility feat and/or a high AC.Yeah, I don't think I've ever seen another GM enforce that. Most think you get to keep moving just fine. Of course, when the GM is letting my fellow players get away with it, I'm certainly not going to point it out...
That because it doesn't. You only lose the move if you are moving through their space, not their threatened space. also, if your speed is reduced due to armor on encumbrance, you can't make the check, it is not allowed.
Is there any reason why that Acrobatics check doesn't happen automatically, as part of resolving the AOO, whenever the provoking character qualifies for it?
YES, there are reasons why characters would not want to make acrobatics checks. My barbarian wants to provoke when moving through an enemy's threatened square. He can take the hit; bfd. He's tried to soak up multiple attacks of opp in one round before (trying to fish for combat reflexes). This does a couple things: it figures out if the opponent has combat reflexes, and if so, with some careful work you can figure out how many attacks he can take in a round. (i.e. I fall prone; I stand up. I attempt a combat maneuver. Oh, he only takes one attack, so no reflexes). This also means that he can soak up all the attacks, allowing another character who doesn't have the survivability to pass through a threatened square or otherwise perform an action that would provoke. There is logic to this; it is not always unwise. It's especially good if you can trust the party healer to do his/her job. Sometimes you're provoking so that the party healer can do his/her job.
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Remember, you can't use the tumble version of acrobatics if you're wearing medium/heavy armor or under medium/heavy encumbrance.
It's against CMD so eventually it becomes pretty impossible to make the checks.
Remember that it's a skill, which means you can get up to +30 from a magic item and another +2 from a masterwork tool, so this is far from true.
+30? how do you get +30.
20 dex: +5
Class Skill: +3Ranks: +10
Trait: +1
Acrobatic: +4
Skill Focus: +6
Belt of Dex: +3
Boots of Elven Kind (comp bonus): +5
Elixir of Tumbling (comp bonus): +10
It's not all that hard to get a +30
If you fail the Arcobatics check, you not only provoke an attack of opportunity but end the move action. Sometimes it's more important to suck an AoO for a guaranteed chance of movement, particulary if you have the Mobility feat and/or a high AC.
This is the primary reason. If you fail the check you stop moving. Assuming you actually wanted to move past them, you have to then use your standard action to complete the movement or stay where you were.
Is there a rule about how "losing the move action" woŕks?
I had a GM rule that when you fail your Acrobatics check, you provoke AND go back to the starting square on which you started your movement. I found that very counter intuitive but well, you know, rule N1
Is there a rule about how "losing the move action" woŕks?
I had a GM rule that when you fail your Acrobatics check, you provoke AND go back to the starting square on which you started your movement. I found that very counter intuitive but well, you know, rule N1
In addition, you can move through a threatened square without provoking an attack of opportunity from an enemy by using Acrobatics. When moving in this way, you move at half speed. You can move at full speed by increasing the DC of the check by 10. You cannot use Acrobatics to move past foes if your speed is reduced due to carrying a medium or heavy load or wearing medium or heavy armor. If an ability allows you to move at full speed under such conditions, you can use Acrobatics to move past foes. You can use Acrobatics in this way while prone, but doing so requires a full-round action to move 5 feet, and the DC is increased by 5. If you attempt to move though an enemy's space and fail the check, you lose the move action and provoke an attack of opportunity.
Emphasis mine.
Should you move through the enemy's square, as in through the square your enemy stands in, but fail the acrobatics check, you lose the movement. GMs infer that you're pushed back to your starting square because you lost the whole movement; you're not shunted to the nearest available square. It's a risky maneuver. Moving through a threatened square does not incur this penalty.
But it sometimes doesn't make any sense, I mean if I'm using an Acrobatics at full speed with a 40' speed to move 30' and then move through a threatened area, it seems stupid to me that I would get back to my starting point and provoke, actually moving 80' with my move somehow
But it sometimes doesn't make any sense, I mean if I'm using an Acrobatics at full speed with a 40' speed to move 30' and then move through a threatened area, it seems stupid to me that I would get back to my starting point and provoke, actually moving 80' with my move somehow
The short answer: Real world doesn't always apply to Pathfinder.
No, it doesn't make sense, but it does solve the "Where does my character go?" problem that could otherwise be easily exploited.
Say V is you. X is enemy. Y is ally. Z is empty space.
ZZZ
YXY
YYY
ZVZ
You could try to tumble through X. If you fail, X pretty much blocks your path; if the ruling was "shunted to the nearest square" then you'd have successfully moved through X. Having you lose your movement, provoke, and return to your starting square prevents people from a failed acrobatics check.
EDIT: And since PF doesn't use facing and direction, saying "The nearest square in front of the enemy. Furthermore, the closest square could be out of your movement, preventing you from reaching it, if the case was:
ZYY
YXY
YYY
ZZV
Because you have lots of summoned creatures or allies or pets. If V only has 20' of movement, his first diagonal is 5'. His move through X takes him to 15. Tumbling out to Z is a second diagonal and at half speed, so it's worth 20;, taking the grand total of the movement to 35.'
He can double move to get there, but then why not just double move to begin with?
The above format also applies when hallways are 5' or 10' wide.
In this game there is a lot of things that don't make a lot of sense. As a GM I rule that you stop just in front of the enemy as opposed to haunting all the way back, but wouldn't even bring it up as a player if a GM kept the rule as written.
EDIT: the above example is a good one. In that case yeah I'd either put the character back to where they started or put them back and give the allies penalties for the fumbling guy trying to dance through the melee.
I actually was unaware of that rule before that game, most GMs let you go finish your movement even if you fail your Acrobatics
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+30? how do you get +30.20 dex: +5
Class Skill: +3
Ranks: +10
Trait: +1
Acrobatic: +4
Skill Focus: +6
Belt of Dex: +3
Boots of Elven Kind (comp bonus): +5
Elixir of Tumbling (comp bonus): +10It's not all that hard to get a +30
Note, GhostwheelX said "+30 from a magic item", which would make anyone say 'what?'. Most of these bonuses you noted are not magic items.
Also, competence bonuses do not stack...
If you have mobility you have a +4 to AC against those attacks. Combine that with a really high AC and you are likely to not get hit, and you don't have to move at half speed like you would with acrobatics.
+30? how do you get +30.20 dex: +5
Class Skill: +3
Ranks: +10
Trait: +1
Acrobatic: +4
Skill Focus: +6
Belt of Dex: +3
Boots of Elven Kind (comp bonus): +5
Elixir of Tumbling (comp bonus): +10It's not all that hard to get a +30
Note, GhostwheelX said "+30 from a magic item", which would make anyone say 'what?'. Most of these bonuses you noted are not magic items.
Also, competence bonuses do not stack...
I understood +30 as +30 with magic items and other things.
I'm aware comp. bonuses do not stack, which is why I singled them out and did not list a grand total. I simply listed ways for characters to get to +30. What character's going to take both Skill Focus: Acrobatics and Acrobatic as feats, anyway?
If you fail an Acrobatics check to move through a threatened square without provoking, you end movement in the square that provoked the attack that hit you. This normally would be the first square you leave that the attacker threatens.
If you attempt to move through a foe's space and fail, you end up adjacent to the target in the square you last left.
A common house rule that I've seen is that rather than end in those squares you use the "missed throw" rules to determine the square in which you end up.
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I see some misinformation in this thread, and I wanted to address it before too many people head off to their games with it.
The only time your movement is halted is if you attempted to Acrobatics through your enemy's actual space, and failed.
Failing Acrobatics while moving through their threatened space does not end your movement.
The question is WHERE do you end your acrobatics, it's still hard for me to swallow that you would return to your original location
Remember, you can't use the tumble version of acrobatics if you're wearing medium/heavy armor or under medium/heavy encumbrance.
It's against CMD so eventually it becomes pretty impossible to make the checks.Remember that it's a skill, which means you can get up to +30 from a magic item and another +2 from a masterwork tool, so this is far from true.
Do note that even with all that investment, you only get a 50/50 when you move full speed on your tumble against a Fire Giant.
That is really crappy when it's only going to get worse from there on.
Also competence bonuses don't stack.
The question is WHERE do you end your acrobatics, it's still hard for me to swallow that you would return to your original location
You got an answer that actually answers the question. Not liking the answer is a desperate issue.
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From the FAQ:
"Acrobatics: What happens if I fail the check when using this skill to move through an enemy's square?
You lose the move action and provoke an AOO. (Note: This means you can attempt this up to two times in the same round, once as a move action and once as a standard action.)
Update: Page 88—In the Acrobatics skill, at the end of the third paragraph (which begins on page 87), add the following sentence: “If you attempt to move through an enemy’s space and fail the check, you lose the move action and provoke an attack of opportunity.”
—Sean K Reynolds, 08/30/11
That because it doesn't. You only lose the move if you are moving through their space, not their threatened space. also, if your speed is reduced due to armor on encumbrance, you can't make the check, it is not allowed.
Thanks for pointing this out. I've seen a lot of people adjudicating this incorrectly, and just took the ruling at face value without closely reading Acrobatics.
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From the FAQ:
"Acrobatics: What happens if I fail the check when using this skill to move through an enemy's square?
You lose the move action and provoke an AOO. (Note: This means you can attempt this up to two times in the same round, once as a move action and once as a standard action.)Update: Page 88—In the Acrobatics skill, at the end of the third paragraph (which begins on page 87), add the following sentence: “If you attempt to move through an enemy’s space and fail the check, you lose the move action and provoke an attack of opportunity.”
—Sean K Reynolds, 08/30/11
The key phrase in both of those is "enemy's space", not "enemy's threatened area". The movement stoppage only occurs if you are trying to paas through a square actually occupied by an enemy.
I actually was unaware of that rule before that game, most GMs let you go finish your movement even if you fail your Acrobatics
Good, they're supposed to, unless you're moving through your enemy's square (not just threatened space).
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Except that they were doing it also when I tried to move through the ennemy space ;)
But I guess you can't expect every GM to know all the rules
Thank you all for the question. I didn't realize that the "end movement" was only for moving through a square. Personally, I will probably continue ending movement moving through threatened squares as well, as a house rule; I feel like the risk\reward (move without provoking but with a risk of not successfully moving at all) is a better model.
RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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I'd been wondering about this myself lately. I wasn't aware of the light-load/armor restriction. Interestingly, it seems to be tied to a reduction in speed, not simply the wearing/carrying of a medium or heavy load:
You cannot use Acrobatics to move past foes if your speed is reduced due to ...Would that mean that dwarves, or fighters with Armor training, can always attempt Acrobatics to move through threatened squares?
Just remember to check the fighter's encumbrance: if the weight of his gear (including armor) puts him into medium load, then his speed is reduced anyway, regardless of Armor Training.
Also, remember that you have to be trained in Acrobatics to use this particular function. (Annoyingly, this fact is found in the Combat chapter.)
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Personally, I will probably continue ending movement moving through threatened squares as well, as a house rule; I feel like the risk\reward (move without provoking but with a risk of not successfully moving at all) is a better model.
As a houserule, that is your right, but wouldn't that eliminate the need for the Stand Still feat, which does basically just that?
The question is WHERE do you end your acrobatics, it's still hard for me to swallow that you would return to your original location
When the little Dexy rogue tries to tumble under the hulking fighter and instead bumps off his girth stumbling back so much as to provoke an AoO, clearly that's where the movement ended, the place at which you failed. It would be better to say that you forfeit any remaining movement speed, true. But I myself, and perhaps the author, imagine the primary use being dancing about an enemy to flank, not running at them and sliding underneath them. Though that is a cool use.
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Also, remember that you have to be trained in Acrobatics to use this particular function. (Annoyingly, this fact is found in the Combat chapter.)
To further clarify, you only need to be trained in Acrobatics to move through an occupied square. You don't need to be trained to move through a threatened square. (And yes, this is annoying that there isn't at least an asterisked note, or something, in the Acrobatics description).
Personally, I will probably continue ending movement moving through threatened squares as well, as a house rule; I feel like the risk\reward (move without provoking but with a risk of not successfully moving at all) is a better model.As a houserule, that is your right, but wouldn't that eliminate the need for the Stand Still feat, which does basically just that?
Stand Still allows you to do that with any provoking movement, and it also stops them from moving at all for the remainder of their turn (they can't even sub a move action as their standard if you use Stand Still on them); I'm talking specifically about when they fail an Acrobatics check to avoid provoking - sorry if that wasn't clear :)
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I will probably continue ending movement moving through threatened squares as well, as a house rule; I feel like the risk\reward (move without provoking but with a risk of not successfully moving at all) is a better model.
Interesting.
I think you're looking at this from a perspective that the movement is a required action, and thus there is no additional risk to attempting an Acrobatics check. So you see it as:
- Reward: Avoid an Attack.
- Risk: May not get to move.
I generally see the movement as a choice, thus:
- Reward: Move.
- Risk: May be attacked.
I would agree more with your perspective if Acrobatics prevented AoOs entirely (like Casting Defensively does), and the check was for the movement to succeed.
It's important to realize that (from the FAQ and subsequent printings) if trying to move through an enemy's square and fail the Acrobatics check, you lose the move action. That means you go back to the square that you started the move from.
That is a potential interpretation, but you're adding words to the text. "Lose the move action" need not mean that you erase it from existence, it can simply you end it, or lose the rest of it (or the entirety if you were already standing right next to the foe).
As for where you end up, the last empty square you occupied is very appropriate (which might be where you started, if you have a lot of allies in the way). Simple description for this, "You dart forward through your allies and try to slip past, only to be solidly knocked back by the Minotaur and stumble backwards to get clear."
Provided you pay attention and depending on how combat progresses, it is possible to determine which of your foes have Combat Reflexes and which don't. If you're fairly sure that whoever is threatening the squares has no more AoO's available then there's not really any reason to 1/2 your movement in order to make the acrobatics check.
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That is a potential interpretation, but you're adding words to the text. "Lose the move action" need not mean that you erase it from existence, it can simply you end it, or lose the rest of it (or the entirety if you were already standing right next to the foe).
As a point of order, what you're saying is actually "adding words to the text". I'm merely taking a literal interpretation of the rule.
As for where you end up, the last empty square you occupied is very appropriate (which might be where you started, if you have a lot of allies in the way). Simple description for this, "You dart forward through your allies and try to slip past, only to be solidly knocked back by the Minotaur and stumble backwards to get clear."
This is certainly plausable. Though, your "stumble backwards" justification is perfectly applicable to the move action being lost and the character having to go back to the starting square, even if that square isn't adjacent to the opponent.
Panther Style is why my character doesn't avoid AOOs. My silly alchemonk thrives on those weird reverse AOOs you get through the feat chain.