Hey, all.
My group is about to run through The Misgivings, and I was looking for advice.
Cool factor, creepiness, mechanically, pretty much any advice you might have to make this a better experience for all.
My first advice would be: Give us more information about your players and your gaming style.
My players LOVED Misgivings because once they learned that haunts were fear-based effects, they sent the paladin ahead to trigger each one so they could learn the story. I allowed the paladin to experience the haunts without taking ability damage from them. *BUT* certain haunts target specific PCs, and I still had those hit those PCs. So there was still a sense of danger: The sorcerer was nearly strangled by the scarf, but easily made the Will save to avoid hurling himself out the window. The bard stabbed the paladin in a misogynistic rage. The barbarian came ONE pip away from coup de gracing himself. There were lots of near-misses, but also lots of haunts where the paladin just allowed them to watch the tale unfold.
This made it feel creepy and dangerous, but they still wanted to learn the whole story, so they intentionally triggered every haunt.
That particular scenario worked because my players care more about story than mechanics or combat. There were no arguments about, "This can't happen by RAW," or, "My PC would never feel that way about anything!"
Many GMs describe Misgivings as an unpleasant grind. This tends to be from gaming groups with an overall attitude of, "Beat that, what's next on the 'to kill' list?" with no concern for overall story or plot. The other groups that have serious issues are those who are inexperienced or unprepared, and so the encounters leave them dead or with irreparable injuries. You'll find many GMs significantly modify the mechanics of the house to suit their group, and those are the happiest GMs. However, you'll see that some made it deadlier, and some made it less deadly, all with their particular group in mind.
So if you can tell us more about how your group reacted to things (Did they do any roleplaying with Nualia? What did they do about Tsuto? How was their overall reaction to events in Sandpoint? How has the second book gone so far with them?), I think you'll get better advice about how GMs with similar styles to yours handled things.
And since you didn't put [Spoilers] in the thread title, don't forget to spoiler key information.
I have two players that are like that "to kill list" person.\
1-Dwarven Fighter 4-killer.
2-Human Wizard 4 and Half-elf Cleric 4-wizard is killer, cleric is much more investigative, oh, these two characters are run by one person.
3-Elf Rogue 4-way more investigation and thought comes from this player than any else.
4-Gnome Sorceror 4-wow. She is just along for the ride, and not as serious as the rest. She does like mysteries, however.
Okay, now that I know how to spoiler things, here we go.
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OK. It sounds like it's running awesomely! And you have a cleric!! Two wins!
With that party makeup and with how things have been running, I'd recommend a straight-up run of Misgivings itself in terms of game play.
Setting the mood is going to be much harder. A lot of GMs lower the lights, play by candlelight, play mood music, or what-have-you, but my players are old and jaded, so we did none of that.
What I DID do is far more AP-specific:
The carrion swarms are your friend. The whole, "You notice a few ravens flying around," then, "You notice more ravens. In fact, the number is now in the dozens, and unusual for this area," and, "There are hundreds of ravens, covering every tree and rock," until finally, "There are enough ravens to black out the sky," is just epic.
The carrion swarms are no threat to a party with a cleric. But the party doesn't know that. Play them as-written, hanging back and menacing the party without getting within channeling range. So the party knows that escape is not an option.
Also don't forget that the building protects itself. I've read multiple campaign journals where PCs threw rocks through windows or lit the building on fire. I hit every single PC who tried with Phantasmal Killer. That is, I hit the *one* PC who tried with it, and they stopped trying to break things.
Feel free to add non-damaging haunts throughout. I love bloody footprints that appear and disappear, leading PCs to an interesting room. The sound of chains rattling. A woman's scream. An organ playing. (Not an accordion. That wrecks the mood.)
Basically, I read the entire history and house layout far more thoroughly than I usually prep. I made copious notes as to what I wanted them to see, what kind of mood they should feel for certain haunts, etc. And then I let them roam loose.
My party was very obliging and followed the haunts in a very pleasant order. If your party starts going the "wrong" way, do something that attracts their attention and leads them in the "right" way.
And personally, if the house hasn't used it up yet, I'd hit the cleric with the Phantasmal Killer the first time he channels. Make the house seem alive, and angry. Emphasize the overwhelming oppressiveness. The molds. The fungi.
Make them feel unwelcome, but focus on getting the story out. I like to think of it as a "split personality". Vorel hates them and wants them dead or gone. The other restless spirits want them to know and remember their fates. So they have to suffer to learn.
Anyway, good luck!
I was also extremely worried about how Misgivings would run for my party, and I ended up wonderfully surprised at how well things went as-written.
Just prep prep prep. That's my best advice.
Could you give a quick run down on what exactly your group did right/wrong? spoiler-ed of course.
I definitely love the idea of scaring them with non-damaging haunts that lead them to the important ones.
About to head out the door for the day, but I'll get this up for you either tonight or tomorrow morning. Hope that's quick enough...
I'm not sure.
No matter the case, your advice has been invaluable in preparing me for the Misgivings.
Thank you. So much.
I used weather, myself. The group was chased into Misgivings with a thunderstorm. Whenever they found one of the stained-glass windows, there would naturally be a flash of lightning to illuminate the windows from without. There would also be periodic rumbles of thunder. And the weather was absolutely no detriment to the ravens in my game, leaving the party even more paranoid about them.
Small thing: I've instituted a "no save-or-die rule in my games. Instead, if you fail your save in that situation, you're at negative half your constitution. It gives time to stabilize you, but still make the spells nasty. (It works for the enemies as well.) With some of the haunts, you might want to institute something similar for effects that would result in deaths. Except for chucking someone out the window. ;)
What if they don't bite with the weather going?
How can you force them to enter ASAP?
Just keep killing citizens?
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That works.
There are significant clues that Misgivings is where you need to go to defeat the ghoul threat. Giving that ghouls and ghasts can just travel underwater, it becomes ni-impossible to defend all of Sandpoint... especially as the ghasts can just capture a boatload of farmers, turn them into ghouls, and then attack Sandpoint with a ghoul army.
If the party refuses to go to the Misgivings, have the townsfolk start to badmouth the party. Some heroes they ended up being, stuff like that. People are being kidnapped and these cowards refuse to confront the source.
You can also ask your players what they want in the AP. Do they want to do the adventure and be heroes? Or become farmers and tavern workers. ;)
We ended up not playing this weekend, so we're good on that front.
Got another week to prepare! Small blessings, right?
That works.
There are significant clues that Misgivings is where you need to go to defeat the ghoul threat. Giving that ghouls and ghasts can just travel underwater, it becomes ni-impossible to defend all of Sandpoint... especially as the ghasts can just capture a boatload of farmers, turn them into ghouls, and then attack Sandpoint with a ghoul army.
If the party refuses to go to the Misgivings, have the townsfolk start to badmouth the party. Some heroes they ended up being, stuff like that. People are being kidnapped and these cowards refuse to confront the source.
You can also ask your players what they want in the AP. Do they want to do the adventure and be heroes? Or become farmers and tavern workers. ;)
Wow! I didn't even see your post, my bad.
So, the best option is to attack Sandpoint with ghouls, ghasts, and other undead beasties?Maybe even upgraded carrionstorms? Cause I love those things.
OK, here's what I liked, spoilered as usual.
My group entered B7 first (I mistakenly told them it looked like the main entrance, because on the map the path looks bigger) and left the piano alone. Both this and the "it takes two visits to trigger the manticore" in B2 are critical: If the PCs take damage the moment they enter, they're not going to be all that interested in a thorough exploration. You want to be patient; get them interested before they start getting hurt.
I was *very* lucky in that they then went through B2, noted the stain in B3, and looked into B8. Again, B8 is creepy (a haunted woman peeking through the window) without doing any damage. At this point, they were kind of hooked on exploring the place and finding out what it all meant.
They then went into B9, and the scarf successfully dropped the sorcerer to -1 hit points.
So we got, "Preface, preface, holy carp this place is dangerous!"
That led to a party determined to explore the entire building, but declaring all kinds of preparatory actions so I didn't end up killing anyone. It was a *very* satisfying experience.
In short, my experience is that if every single room is a nickel-and-dime encounter, the PCs get fed up and leave. If instead they get "interesting occurrence", "interesting occurrence", "near-lethal encounter" they get far more drawn in.
Your mileage may vary.
I really hope my players approach it the same way you did.
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Well, here's my writeup:
My campaign journal entry.
Just be warned -- reading the whole journal will cost you many hours of your life. Of course, being undead, this may be a Good Thing for you.
Haha, thanks.
We members of the unliving do find it hard to fill the years in between PC visits.
wow, in just the first minute, inspiration strikes.
Honestly, the one you mention in the spoiler is one of my favorites: You get SO many saves to survive, that if you fail them all you really do deserve to die, and you can tell a classic story about just how incompetent your character was.
My concerns are far more mundane:
- The multitude of drains
- The "Will save or coup de grace yourself"
If the party starts losing a lot of characteristic points and runs out of lesser restorations, I'd be careful not to drain anyone to death. And I'd just get rid of the "CdG yourself" haunt or make it just a "hit yourself for normal damage" haunt.
Hmm....okay. I'll take your advice.
What do you suggest doing about
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Actually, I think I'm OK with the "Will save or coup de grace yourself" haunt. I mean, it's a full round action, so that means there's a full round of PC action between the round where the afflicted PC moving over and picking up the "dagger", and the round where the coup de grace actually happens. I plan on making it very obvious what the PC is doing: "You see your friend head directly towards a table in the room, pick up a sharp piece of wood, and place it directly against their throat." Presumably, at least one of the PCs will attempt to intervene. If they do, then the afflicted PC changes targets and critically hits that PC with the weapon. The only way the coup de grace happens is if nobody stops them. Either they're exploring a known haunted house by themselves (bad plan), or the rest of the group is just engaging in massive dickery by letting this happen.
As per the book, any unassigned haunts become universal haunts.
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It's six types of themed haunts. A burning theme. I think there's a betrayed theme. Etc.
My notes aren't with me. I'll have to post tonight about this. Long story short, my party LOVED this scene and it scared the crap out of them. I had a lot of pre-prep notes about who was tied to what haunt and why, and then changed the description to match the player's background and RP style.
They also took three attempts to deal with the house, and the third time they had left the house alone for a few days, so it had time to "heal" and "brood" about how best to deal with the players. The final session was brutal and nail biting.
See, my problem is that
** spoiler omitted **
** spoiler omitted **
In an unusual moment, I'm going to respectfully disagree with Misroi:
Full-Round Action: A full-round action consumes all your effort during a round.
All of the action still takes place *within the character's round* -- there's no chance at all for another PC to intervene. For example, a "Full Attack" is also a full-round action, and you don't let other PCs take actions between the fighter's swings.
You may be thinking of full-round spells such as Summon Monster, where the caster is casting from one round to the next, so everyone around the caster has a chance to intervene. Those are different.
So I can see what you're saying: It's one round to go over and pick up the "dagger", and the other PCs can see that that PC is going to do something stupid, and then the second round for the CdG.
But there are too many parties that will sit there the first round and say, "What's he going to do with that dagger? Maybe it's part of the story! We should wait and see what happens!"
Then the CdG happens and the character's in a save-or-die moment, and once it's clear he's going to CdG himself, it's too late.
Yes, you as a GM can mitigate this. "He picks up the dagger and holds it up to his throat," can be part of the description of the preliminary move action.
But LOTS of our group members take Quick Draw as a feat, and it's suddenly 5' step, free action, full-round action and save-or-die before anyone can intervene.
EDIT: I think it's not so much that I disagree with Misroi; it's that I agree with him that you have to telegraph that particular event SO strongly that I don't like it. One slip as a GM and you've likely killed a PC...
So consider it more like, "That event requires careful attention on your part."
Honestly, the one you mention in the spoiler is one of my favorites: You get SO many saves to survive, that if you fail them all you really do deserve to die, and you can tell a classic story about just how incompetent your character was.
My concerns are far more mundane:
** spoiler omitted **
NobodysHome, man. I read your post for the house, and dang. I love how your party experienced it. I hope mine does half the roleplaying yours did. I'm just anticipating that run-through-and-kill-it things.
Yeah. Ask Misroi. I write. A lot. :-P
I'm looking at my notes for Saturday in Xin-Shalast and thinking, "Ah, geez! That's going to take me at least 12 hours to write up," and there were 3 combats for the entire 12-hour day...
Whoa, you're in Xin-Shalast already?
We've got maybe a year to three years til we're there, at least at our pace,
Whoa, you're in Xin-Shalast already?
We've got maybe a year to three years til we're there, at least at our pace,
Oh, yeah. The thread I pointed you to is our *entire* campaign, including 8-10 sessions in a side quest in Absalom.
We play weekly, anywhere from 2-12 hours. When we first started, we sometimes ran 2 sessions a week. And we've been going for 19 months now, virtually every single week.
Games like this last Saturday's are my absolute favorite, though: Lots of juicy roleplaying, plot progression, and only the handful of combats required to progress the plot.
I'm fortunate in that my players feel the same, so we get in *tons* of roleplaying. Last session was the encounter with Ayruzi (the name's not a spoiler, but you can look up that name in Book 6). Post-game we spent an immense amount of time talking about how different that encounter can go depending on the party. We have four gaming groups, and each one would have tackled that very differently. It's a fascinating study in player characters in a single encounter.
Wish it was earlier! :-P
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Actually, NobodysHome doesn't write enough! From my perspective, they're currently in Absalom prepping to go back into Runeforge. ;-P
Seriously, though...
I'll have to examine the room again where the haunt occurs. If it's just a 5' step, that's problematic. Quick Draw shouldn't come into play here - you're not drawing a weapon, you're picking one up, and that falls under "Manipulate an Item" instead of "Draw or Sheathe a Weapon." So, even if it's 5', you should have a second round for the PCs to do something to prevent it.
You do have a very good point, though. I hadn't thought of "what happens if you've got PCs that want to see what happens in the story?" I'm planning on solving that issue when I get to the Misgivings by writing up a series of handouts. When the haunt goes off, the affected PC is given the handout which describes the action as they perceive it, followed by the phrase "Make a (appropriate) save." If they succeed, then they're fine. If not, they get a second handout which describes what happens to them. I'm also planning on writing the handouts from the point of view of the spirit that powers the haunt, when appropriate. I really want to have the PC experience things from that perspective, so they can try to explain to the rest of the party why they did what they did. In this case, I plan on writing the character's frame of mind, how shattered he is of what he's done, and realizing that there's only one way out, one end to the pain. They then get to describe themselves walking over to the table and picking up what they see as a dagger, but the rest of the group sees as a jagged piece of wood. I'm pretty sure my group will stop whoever ends up doing this, but you're right. One wrong move, and they're suddenly out a party member. If they do intervene (and I sincerely hope they do), then the haunt just stabs someone for 2d4+(twice haunt victim's Str bonus) damage.
You have given me food for thought, though. I'll probably revisit this once they get closer to the Misgivings.
Hahah, I know who that is.
How did your group handle that situation?
Especially since there's a paladin in the group. (assuming she's still alive and there.)
She is
And Misroi,
Like I said above, my Cleric befriended the Birdcrushers and the Fighter is training them to add Warrior levels.
They have also claimed Thistle top as their own, and plan on cleaning it up ASAP
The Rogue went on a sidequest where she investigated Banny and a "foreigner" were apparently smuggling gold. she also ended up investigatin Titus Scarnetti for the murders.
Imagine her surprise when both ended up dead, with the Sihedron in their chests!
I'm glad I asked before we ran it.
It'll help so much.
Hahah, I know who that is.
How did your group handle that situation?
Especially since there's a paladin in the group. (assuming she's still alive and there.)
OK. This is cruel to Misroi since as he says I'm a month behind in my writeups so I'm spoilering this. This is my party's encounter with Ayruzi.
It has nothing to do with Misgivings. It's a massive spoiler for Book 6. And it's a huge spoiler for those who are reading my thread and want to see it from start to finish.
My party, being my party, flew up the outside of the Pinnacle of Avarice looking for some way in other than the front door. So they spotted the tunnel leading in. The paladin peeked in and was attacked by the silent, weeping angel. (Shades of Dr. Who.) In one of the most memorable RP moments ever, I rolled a 1 and then a 2 in front of the whole group, then drew, "Broken Haft" from the Fumble deck. It was obvious that Sarenrae herself was intervening to prevent the angel from harming the paladin!
The paladin, being who she is, refused to harm the angel and went full defense, asking the sorcerer and the bard to figure out a solution that would not harm the angel. The barbarian rushed in to grapple and the angel's attack of opportunity was another 1. (This time not a fumble.) So she was grappled for a moment as the bard and the sorcerer discussed what to do.
The angel finally found her bearing and crit the paladin. She still wouldn't fight back.
The bard and sorcerer finally figured it out. The bard told the angel, "We're about to cast Plane Shift on you. Don't resist."
The sorcerer rushed forward, took the attack of opportunity (the paladin cast Paladin's Sacrifice and took a second critical on that one), successfully touched the angel, successfully blew through her SR, and cast Plane Shift.
Simple GM ruling: The creature bound must follow the letter of her orders. Her orders were to 'attack anyone who entered the room' and 'fight to the best of her ability'. They said nothing about which plane she had to fight on. And she'd do MUCH better one-on-one against a sorcerer rather than against the whole party. So I let her be a willing target. If devils can find loopholes, so can angels!
On her home plane, she was free. And angry. And could speak. And the sorcerer brought her back with him. (Took a while -- they used Plane Shift so ended up in the Kodar Mountains, and he had to Greater Teleport them to the ice fens and then have her fly him up while he gave directions.)
So she told them how Khalib had bound her, and come in every day tormenting her with the news that she would either slay an avatar of Sarenrae (the paladin) or be slain.
The paladin is NOT amused.
And Khalib can't scry them inside the pinnacle.
So he's about to walk into a room full of angry with no buffs.
As I said, next session Khalib will regret his life choices.
Man, that's awesome.
I might have to read your whole campaign post.
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In my *totally* unbiased opinion, that's a great idea! :-P
It's sooooo long though, and will take a long time to read.
Good thing I have endless millennium to do so.
I actually really appreciated one reader's post (and I'm grossly paraphrasing): Bookmark the thread, read only one or two posts a day, and you'll be caught up in no time!
(Yes, 349/2 is around 175 days, but I'd guess that more than half the posts are me chatting with readers, so the number of massive "story" posts is much smaller.)
Where does it actually start?
All I see is character backgrounds :D
LOL. Post #13, appropriately enough, is CaroRose dotting the thread just before the players started roleplaying.
All I'm going to say about the backgrounds is that those are the actual e-mails I sent to the PCs to "fill in" the backgrounds they'd given me. They *loved* them.
From now on, *EVERY* campaign I run is having stories like that... skip them at your own risk. :-P
I wish I had a GM that cared that much!
but the good news is that my players for this campaign is my family.
So, we're a tad bit familiar with each other.
Raesh is a DROW?! :O
I'll be doing the Misgivings soon. Good ideas here, everyone! Dot.
I'll be doing the Misgivings soon. Good ideas here, everyone! Dot.
Do you have anything to add?
Raesh is a DROW?! :O
Awesome story -- all those threads on, "Do paladins kill evil babies?" made her come up with the character concept -- a drow who had been rescued as a baby by a paladin of Sarenrae and "redeemed"; forced to worship a goddess whose every temple hurt her eyes.
It's been the best roleplaying of the entire campaign. She's OWNED her drowdom and her paladinhood, and it's led to some epic moments. "Must...bite...off...goblin's...head!!! Must...not...bite...off...goblin's...head!!!"
(Not literally, but she did come VERY close to falling for killing a goblin who'd nearly killed her friend, and her snarling tirade at Sarenrae was awesome. And a bit terrifying, because the player was totally snarling at me (hopefully in character)!)
(I'm writing up their visit to the dwarven city of Janderhoff right now. Now THAT was a fun bit of roleplaying!)
Sorry, been reading y'all guys' story, and just got lost.
Dang. Tis all.
I'll be doing the Misgivings soon. Good ideas here, everyone! Dot.Do you have anything to add?
Not yet! I've only briefly skimmed the section specific to the Misgivings, but my players are of the type to become frustrated and/or resistant to explore if they know bad things are apt to happen. They were mostly raised by other GMs and trained from a young age to basically avoid the GM's dangling carrot at all costs or face certain doom, which has made leading them along the AP difficult enough as is.
Sending them into an obviously creepy haunted house, they're as likely to try to beeline for whatever the goal is (though in this case they probably won't be able to figure that out so easily), rather than explore. And if they do explore, they're the type to take one step, check for traps, take another step, check for traps, etc, etc, until the end of time. Getting them to open up and explore and not be as concerned about death at every turn (due to past GMs being absolutely abusive) will be difficult, especially when it seems like death is actually there at every turn once they enter the Misgivings.
The simplest solution is this: the door leading into the final confrontation is Wizard-Locked. Only the key on the 2nd floor hidden behind that painting can unlock it. Thus even if they break through the other doors... they're stuck and need to check out the house to find their way in.
** spoiler omitted **
** spoiler omitted **
In an unusual moment, I'm going to respectfully disagree with Misroi:
** spoiler omitted **EDIT: I think it's not so much that I disagree with Misroi; it's that I agree with him that you have to telegraph that particular event SO strongly that I don't like it. One slip as a GM and you've likely killed a PC...
So consider it more like, "That event requires careful attention on your part."
I'd like to disagree with the disagreement. Coup de Grace is a full-round action that draws attacks of opportunity. So at a minimum anyone adjacent to the character can intervene with a grapple or other "attack." I'd also like to suggest that using a CdG to commit suicide is a stretch for the rule and no one would execute it quickly or cleanly and therefore I'd give every character in the room an opportunity to stop it.