I apologize in advance for the tricky long wording.
If you have a primary natural attack claw and were also using a two handed weapon, could you make your natural attack as a secondary natural attack while holding the two handed weapon one handed and after delivering said natural attack could you use that very same hand to grab the two handed weapon to deliver your iterative weapon attacks?
Thank you.
Whenever someone asks questions about natural attacks like this, my first question is always this: could you do the same thing with a quickdrawn dagger? Could you do an attack with a dagger, drop it, and then do a full two handed iterative with a two handed weapon?
And in this, the answer is no. Your limbs can each only do one attack routine per round. This principle was put in place to prevent this kind of move in the first place.
How natural attacks interact with manufactured weapon attacks can be complicated. But in general, just assume if you make a natural attack with a limb, that limb cannot then be used to make a manufactured attack in the same round, and vice-versa.
Okay, but how about this.
If you forgo your iterative attacks, could you use your claws if you had a two handed weapon in hand and you didn't sheathed the weapon but instead, switch the weapon of available hands.
Would that be viable?
So I have a separate question, but it's kind of related. If I have claws, and I'm a monk, can I use my "unarmed attack" (which according to the rules does not requires my fists in any way and can be made with my elbows, knees, and feet) and still attack with my claws (as secondary weapons because the unarmed attacks would be primary)?
So I have a separate question, but it's kind of related. If I have claws, and I'm a monk, can I use my "unarmed attack" (which according to the rules does not requires my fists in any way and can be made with my elbows, knees, and feet) and still attack with my claws (as secondary weapons because the unarmed attacks would be primary)?
Yes, you can make (secondary) claw attacks after your unarmed strikes.
BUT, you cannot do so after a flurry of blows (As per the flurry of blows rules).
Okay, but how about this.
If you forgo your iterative attacks, could you use your claws if you had a two handed weapon in hand and you didn't sheathed the weapon but instead, switch the weapon of available hands.
Would that be viable?
Yes, partly.
You could hold the two-handed weapon in one hand, and make a claw attack. But you only make a single claw attack, due to it being a natural weapon.
Okay, but how about this.
If you forgo your iterative attacks, could you use your claws if you had a two handed weapon in hand and you didn't sheathed the weapon but instead, switch the weapon of available hands.
Would that be viable?
As a general rule, I am fairly sure you can't change how you are wielding items in the middle of a full attack. You could attack with one claw while hold a two handed weapon in one hand (obviously you would not be wielding it, so it doesn't threaten or anything). You could only make both claw attacks if you dropped the weapon.
So I have a separate question, but it's kind of related. If I have claws, and I'm a monk, can I use my "unarmed attack" (which according to the rules does not requires my fists in any way and can be made with my elbows, knees, and feet) and still attack with my claws (as secondary weapons because the unarmed attacks would be primary)?
I suppose if you are using your legs. Elbows count for the attack routine for the 'arms' though. The developers generally get miffed when this idea is brought up on the boards though, yet it still seems generally valid.
Also, the natural attacks would be secondary because unarmed strikes are more like manufactured weapons (they get iteratives and they can be used for TWF, so it is a safe assumption). And manufactured weapons are in their own separate little world from natural weapon rules. I just thought I should add to for general clarity's sake.
Okay, but how about this.
If you forgo your iterative attacks, could you use your claws if you had a two handed weapon in hand and you didn't sheathed the weapon but instead, switch the weapon of available hands.
Would that be viable?
If you make an attack with a manufactured weapon in a limb that also has a natural attack, you cannot also make a natural attack that round.
If you have 2 claws for instance you could hold a 1 handed weapon in one hand, and then attack with the one handed weapon for a number of times as provided by your BAB and then attack with your claw once.
If instead you had a two handed weapon you could hold (but not attack with) the two handed weapon and attack with the claw not holding the weapon. Because switching the item between hands is essentially a free aciton you could take both claw attacks by attacking with one, moving the weapon to the other hand and then attacking with your other claw. You get no iterative attacks with natural weapons.
If you attack with a two handed weapon, or are two weapon fighting, you cannot make any attack with your claws because those limbs have already been used to make weapon attacks.
So I have a separate question, but it's kind of related. If I have claws, and I'm a monk, can I use my "unarmed attack" (which according to the rules does not requires my fists in any way and can be made with my elbows, knees, and feet) and still attack with my claws (as secondary weapons because the unarmed attacks would be primary)?
You can make unarmed strikes as provided by your BAB and then follow up with natural attacks. Since an unarmed strike can be with any part of your body you can make all natural attacks that your character possesses. Please note however:
Flurry of Blows (Ex): Starting at 1st level, a monk can make a flurry of blows as a full-attack action. When doing so, he may make on additional attack, taking a -2 penalty on all of his attack rolls, as if using the Two-Weapon Fighting feat. These attacks can be any combination of unarmed strikes and attacks with a monk special weapon (he does not need to use two weapons to use this ability). For the purpose of these attacks, the monk's base attack bonus from his monk class levels is equal to his monk level. For all other purposes, such as qualifying for a feat or a prestige class, the monk uses his normal base attack bonus.
At 8th level, the monk can make two additional attacks when he uses flurry of blows, as if using Improved Two-Weapon Fighting (even if the monk does not meet the prerequisites for the feat).
At 15th level, the monk can make three additional attacks using flurry of blows, as if using Greater Two-Weapon Fighting (even if the monk does not meet the prerequisites for the feat).
A monk applies his full Strength bonus to his damage rolls for all successful attacks made with flurry of blows, whether the attacks are made with an off-hand or with a weapon wielded in both hands. A monk may substitute disarm, sunder, and trip combat maneuvers for unarmed attacks as part of a flurry of blows. A monk cannot use any weapon other than an unarmed strike or a special monk weapon as part of a flurry of blows. A monk with natural weapons cannot use such weapons as part of a flurry of blows, nor can he make natural attacks in addition to his flurry of blows attacks.
So, you cannot FoB and make your natural attacks. You could however make your normal BAB attacks and then natural attack. If you want to have your cake and eat it too, then look into the feat Feral Combat Training
Sorry for the necroposting, but new information has come to light and I need some feedback about it.
The following rules below suggest that A you can take free actions between attacks as part of a full attack, B letting go and grabbing back a two handed weapon qualifies as a free action and C using quick-draw also qualifies as a free action.
http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9o72
Multiple Weapons, Extra Attacks, and Two-Weapon Fighting: If I have extra attacks from a high BAB, can I make attacks with different weapons and not incur a two-weapon fighting penalty?
Yes. Basically, you only incur TWF penalties if you are trying to get an extra attack per round.
Let's assume you're a 6th-level fighter (BAB +6/+1) holding a longsword in one hand and a light mace in the other. Your possible full attack combinations without using two-weapon fighting are:
(A) longsword at +6, longsword +1
(B ) mace +6, mace +1
© longsword +6, mace +1
(D) mace +6, longsword +1
All of these combinations result in you making exactly two attacks, one at +6 and one at +1. You're not getting any extra attacks, therefore you're not using the two-weapon fighting rule, and therefore you're not taking any two-weapon fighting penalties.
If you have Quick Draw, you could even start the round wielding only one weapon, make your main attack with it, draw the second weapon as a free action after your first attack, and use that second weapon to make your iterative attack (an "iterative attack" is an informal term meaning "extra attacks you get from having a high BAB"). As long as you're properly using the BAB values for your iterative attacks, and as long as you're not exceeding the number of attacks per round granted by your BAB, you are not considered to be using two-weapon fighting, and therefore do not take any of the penalties for two-weapon fighting.
The two-weapon fighting option in the Core Rulebook specifically refers to getting an extra attack for using a second weapon in your offhand. In the above four examples, there is no extra attack, therefore you're not using two-weapon fighting.
Using the longsword/mace example, if you use two-weapon fighting you actually have fewer options than if you aren't. Your options are (ignoring the primary/off hand penalties):
(A') primary longsword at +6, primary longsword at +1, off hand mace at +6
(B') primary mace at +6, primary mace at +1, off hand longsword at +6
In other words, once you decide you're using two-weapon fighting to get that extra attack on your turn (which you have to decide before you take any attacks on your turn), that decision locks you in to the format of "my primary weapon gets my main attack and my iterative attack, and my off hand weapon only gets the extra attack, and I apply two-weapon fighting penalties."
Two-Handed Weapons: What kind of action is it to remove your hand from a two-handed weapon or re-grab it with both hands?
Both are free actions. For example, a wizard wielding a quarterstaff can let go of the weapon with one hand as a free action, cast a spell as a standard action, and grasp the weapon again with that hand as a free action; this means the wizard is still able to make attacks of opportunity with the weapon (which requires using two hands).
As with any free action, the GM may decide a reasonable limit to how many times per round you can release and re-grasp the weapon (one release and re-grasp per round is fair).
So taking this new information into account, wouldn't it be possible to make:
1) A natural attack weapon with one hand the grabbing the two handed weapon as a free action and then doing your iterative attacks with the weapon.
Or even better.
2) Make your natural attacks and then with quickdraw take out your weapons and also do your iterative weapon attacks.
What do you guys think?
So taking this new information into account, wouldn't it be possible to make:
1) A natural attack weapon with one hand the grabbing the two handed weapon as a free action and then doing your iterative attacks with the weapon.
Or even better.
2) Make your natural attacks and then with quickdraw take out your weapons and also do your iterative weapon attacks.
What do you guys think?
The information isn't really new, in so far as the ruling preventing one limb from making attacks with multiple weapons (manufactured or natural) already took into account that switching weapons was a free action.
the rules you cited are not new. the questions you asked now have the same answer they did before you cited those rules. you are still trying to make attacks with the same hand with a primary and secondary attack. you cannot do this. if at ANY point in the round, your left hand makes an attack with a manufactured weapon, it cannot EVER in that round, make a secondary attack. the same goes for the other hand. if you make a secondary attack with your left hand, never in that round can you attack with a manufactured weapon in that hand. same for the right. understand?
the only way i would ever allow you to be able to do this, would be by replacing one of your iterative attacks with a secondary attack, which would incur both the -5 from being a secondary attack AND the -5/-10/-15 from the iterative that you replace it with. this would be a terrible idea, but i'd let you do it... this is not, however an official rule, this is a houserule that i would allow.
While I understand the RAW, I house rule that if a creature does not use manufactured weapons, they can use their iterative attacks progression INSTEAD OF (not in addition to) the standard natural attack rules by essentially treating your claws as light slashing weapons. Just cause otherwise it pretty much makes claws pretty much a throwaway trait to me... if you are a level 20 fighter with a two-handed sword you get 5 attacks but then you can't use your claws... you have claws good for you but you can't use them. But you throw down the sword, you only get two attacks? But then take two daggers and the two-weapon fighting progression and you can get up to 8 dagger attacks, but your claws... still worthless! Might also note that this house rule generally only applies to claws, so no biting people 5 times, if you use my house rule, you can't bite in that round because you are focusing on using just your claws.
TL;DR I house rule that you may treat claws as light slashing weapons because why would anyone want two 1d4 claw attacks when they could get 5 1d4 dagger attacks?
TL;DR I house rule that you may treat claws as light slashing weapons because why would anyone want two 1d4 claw attacks when they could get 5 1d4 dagger attacks?
Well it isn't entirely fair to compare a single racial feature (2 claws) with 20 class levels and several feats toward being good at something (fighter levels + TWF).
What those claws give you compared to TWF is:
Higher attack bonus, higher damage from Str and PA, no need for TWF feats, no need for the quickdraw feat, weapons that cannot be disarmed or sundered.
Natural attacks are front-loaded. At lvl 4 the druid or barbarian is amazing with 3 natural attacks, when the fighter get's a single one with his sword. IMO it is not unreasonable that the scales tip in the other direction later in the game.
TL;DR I house rule that you may treat claws as light slashing weapons because why would anyone want two 1d4 claw attacks when they could get 5 1d4 dagger attacks?Well it isn't entirely fair to compare a single racial feature (2 claws) with 20 class levels and several feats toward being good at something (fighter levels + TWF).
What those claws give you compared to TWF is:
Higher attack bonus, higher damage from Str and PA, no need for TWF feats, no need for the quickdraw feat, weapons that cannot be disarmed or sundered.Natural attacks are front-loaded. At lvl 4 the druid or barbarian is amazing with 3 natural attacks, when the fighter get's a single one with his sword. IMO it is not unreasonable that the scales tip in the other direction later in the game.
But why must they tip? Why does a level 20 character who started her career suddenly have a racial ability that makes her subpar if she uses it past a certain level?
If you just treat them as light slashing weapons as I do, then a level 20 claws fighter with all the TWF feats is exactly the same as a level 20 dagger fighter with all the TWF. If you take Improved Natural Attack, then you are sacrificing a feat to get a better weapon... which the regular weapon fighter just has to pick up a better weapon... So, the normal weapon fighter still has an advantage in that he doesn't have to use a feat to increase his damage die.
It just really says to me that unless you know your campaign isn't going to go past a certain level, you're better off just forgetting you have claws (or in the case of some species that can choose claws like catfolk or dhampir) not having them in the first place and using normal weapons.
NOW, that said... I've recently been looking into it and I am going to try to see if I can make an effective level 20 character that uses natural weapons without feeling like they should just retrain all the natural weapon "crap" and pick up a sword. In fact, I think I will create a new thread to further discuss this, and get some help in a nice level 20 build for a claws based fighter.
If I use TWF to make two attacks with manufactured weapons, can I treat my racial primary bite attack as a secondary attack (albeit with the -5 penalty) and use it in the same round?
Yes
Yes
Thanks