I know that sometimes it's listed in a stat block, like for undead traits, that calls it out separately, but the universal monster rules has damage and drain under the same section.
So should creatures immune to ability damage also inherently be immune to ability drain if not listed? I would assume that the undead trait states it that way, as a way to overrule general common sense about it and allows for ability damage to be applied to mental scores.
This question is sparked from the tarrasque's stat block. It says immune ability damage, but not drain. And with an int of 2... if you find int drain (which I'm looking for) then you can one round him and he's dead forever... which makes his "lore" real stupid. Because everyone that matters in the known universe would no longer fear the tarrasque, at all, and he wouldn't have the "almost impossible to kill" lore.
Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
If a creature is immune to stat damage, that includes drain as well.
LazarX wrote: If a creature is immune to stat damage, that includes drain as well. Do you have a link to a FAQ, or anything that can help me define that? I feel the same way, as to how it should be, but I'm just curious if you have any rules source. Do you remember maybe reading it on a forum here, or something?
Thank you for the input.
LazarX wrote: If a creature is immune to stat damage, that includes drain as well. I can't find anything to corroborate that anywhere. Can you provide a link to rules or FAQ stating such?
In fact, many monsters specify immunity to both Ability Damage and Ability Drain (see the Shinigami), which makes me think there is a need to specify both.
Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
MrSnarfle wrote: LazarX wrote: If a creature is immune to stat damage, that includes drain as well. I can't find anything to corroborate that anywhere. Can you provide a link to rules or FAQ stating such?
In fact, many monsters specify immunity to both Ability Damage and Ability Drain (see the Shinigami), which makes me think there is a need to specify both. It only means that different people have different writing styles and some are more terse than others. (or might have been squeezed for word count, which is a more touchy issue with page design than you might think.)
But it goes with plain reason. if you can't damage a stat, you can't drain it. And it's a definite fact that you can't down a tarrasque with a mere 2 pt stat damaging spell.
That's my call as a GM, and for me that's all that's needed. If you're a GM, you don't need any more justification, or any justification at all. And if you're a player that's going press the issue, you're invited to stand in front of one and try it out.
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LazarX wrote: MrSnarfle wrote: LazarX wrote: If a creature is immune to stat damage, that includes drain as well. I can't find anything to corroborate that anywhere. Can you provide a link to rules or FAQ stating such?
In fact, many monsters specify immunity to both Ability Damage and Ability Drain (see the Shinigami), which makes me think there is a need to specify both. It only means that different people have different writing styles and some are more terse than others. (or might have been squeezed for word count, which is a more touchy issue with page design than you might think.)
But it goes with plain reason. if you can't damage a stat, you can't drain it. And it's a definite fact that you can't down a tarrasque with a mere 2 pt stat damaging spell.
That's my call as a GM, and for me that's all that's needed. If you're a GM, you don't need any more justification, or any justification at all. And if you're a player that's going press the issue, you're invited to stand in front of one and try it out. Ability damage and ability drain are not the same thing. I don't know of anything that is immune to "stat damage", as that is not something that exists in PF. Ability Damage and Ability Drain are two different things, being immune to one doesn't grant immunity to the other.
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Ability damage and ability drain are not the same thing. Drain actually reduces your stat. Ability damage just provides a penalty to the modifier without actually lowering the stat.
Yeah, I don't agree with the logic that "if you can't damage a stat, you can't drain it."
Ability drain is more of a supernatural effect. Ability damage can come from any number of mundane things (poisons, a Mi-Go's evisceration, a rogue's crippling strke), and is cured by normal healing.
I don't, however, know of any mundane causes of ability drain... And it has to be healed via a spell. It is far more severe than ability damage.
I think that dismissing it as "different writing styles" might be a little premature. I personally have no problem thinking it's logical that they are different things and require separate immunities...
Separate immunities that are statted out in all of the creature types that receive them (undead/ construct/whatnot), as well as in specific monster's stat blocks.
If what you all say is true, then the lore for the tarrasque is b!##+!$! because any mid level cleric/wizard can stop it alone with some prep work, and the world would have never feared it to begin with.
Does this mean the stat block is probably wrong?
Also how could something be so strong as to be immune to a stronger affect, but weaker against the weaker effect (immune drain, but not damage).
Also then why are they listed together in the universal monster guide, if they were not assumed to be approximately the same effect? I understand is one is different than the other, but technically it's a stronger affect. And yes there are mundane ways to do drain. There are diseases and poisons that do it.
Normally you are not immune to "shaken" (never heard of this) and not also "frightened" because frightened is a more severe fear-effect. They simply created something to refer to this. It seems with ability damage/drain they failed to create one to combine them, for whatever reason. Maybe it's because there is only 2, and not 3 of them (I am excluding penalty because it cannot be used to kill/unconcious and does not stack, so it's a much different beast, even lesser than damage if you wanted to include).
It seems to be, that something immune to damage, would be also immune to drain, and it's just lazyness or undersight on the designers perspective.
If this is not the case, and the stat block is not broken, then the tarrasque is a kitty cat and everything it did should never have occured in lore because he would have been stopped instantly.
Quote: It only means that different people have different writing styles and some are more terse than others. (or might have been squeezed for word count, which is a more touchy issue with page design than you might think.) This is also complete bogus--ability drain and ability damage were explicitly made different in the 3.0 Monster Manual, primarily written by Monte Cook. In the same book, Cook decided to make undead immune to ability damage and ability drain, but the Tarrasque only immune to ability damage. Those distinctions were then carried into the 3.5 monster manual and the PFRPG Bestiary. For your claim to hold any weight whatsoever, you would need to argue that Monte Cook completely misunderstood his own rules written in the same exact book.
Now, sure, maybe it's possible that every single designer who's every written a d20 product, including the people who created the system, completely misunderstood the rules, and you miraculously managed to decipher them, and really ability drain and damage are the same thing despite being clearly defined as different....
or maybe it's possible that the game's designers understand their own rules better than you do, and wrote them accordingly.
digitalpacman wrote: Also how could something be so strong as to be immune to a stronger affect, but weaker against the weaker effect (immune drain, but not damage). AFAIK there are no published monsters immune to ability drain but not damage. The Tarrasque is immune to ability damage (the weaker effect) but not ability drain (the stronger effect), which makes sense, since ability drain is stronger and hence harder to resist.
Quote: It seems to be, that something immune to damage, would be also immune to drain, and it's just lazyness or undersight on the designers perspective. So, your theory is that the original designers of the system, along with all the hundreds of authors that have written for it, just completely didn't understand the rules and/or were lazy?
Quote: Also then why are they listed together in the universal monster guide, if they were not assumed to be approximately the same effect? I understand is one is different than the other, but technically it's a stronger affect. And yes there are mundane ways to do drain. There are diseases and poisons that do it. Ability drain is intentionally more powerful than ability damage. A +1 magic weapon can overcome DR/Magic, but not DR/Epic. That isn't an "oversight", that's because DR/Epic is suppose to be more powerful. Ability drain is meant to be more potent than ability damage. That's why the effects that generate it tend to be higher leveled, and why it is harder to cure with restoration spells, and harder to resist.
Now, if you could find a monster that was immune to ability drain, but not immune to ability damage, that would probably be a mistake. Which is why there aren't any such monsters.
"AFAIK there are no published monsters immune to ability drain but not damage. The Tarrasque is immune to ability damage (the weaker effect) but not ability drain (the stronger effect), which makes sense, since ability drain is stronger and hence harder to resist."
I found one just now, I don't have the link. But yes it exists.
"So, your theory is that the original designers of the system, along with all the hundreds of authors that have written for it, just completely didn't understand the rules and/or were lazy?"
Yes as I see typos all the time that you would find from just reading your own product. I'm a software engineer and _every_ _single_ _word_ is read by at least 3 people before it goes up to customers. And all it takes is a single read through to see typos, grammatical errors, and so forth in paizo products. I love the content, but their QA is bad.
"Now, if you could find a monster that was immune to ability drain, but not immune to ability damage, that would probably be a mistake. Which is why there aren't any such monsters."
http://www.archivesofnethys.com/MonsterDisplay.aspx?ItemName=The%20Mourning %20One
I've been doing a lot of looking into this :) And yes, development teams are people and people make mistakes.
And this particular mistake means the lore for the tarrasque is all a lie, this is why it is irking me. A level 3 cleric can take down the tarrasque in a matter of rounds with little to know danger to himself. And a level 15+ NPC cleric/wizard (who would have been trying to stop him from whatever kingdom the tarrasque is killing) would have been able stop him no problem. And since multiple nations would most likely assist then this becomes a giant joke.
The link you just posted doesn't work, but I'll take your word for it for the moment. Yes, I'd say that that is probably a mistake, someone who is immune to ability DRAIN should be immune to ability DAMAGE--just like a +6 weapon that can bypass DR/Epic also bypasses DR/Magic.
The converse is not true, though, bypassing the WEAKER ability doesn't grant you immunity to the STRONGER ability. Given that the distiction has been in core since the beginning and has not been changed in either of the two revisions or any errata, I seriously doubt that ability drain and damage are somehow meant to be the same.
As for your claims about the tarrasque...huh? I don't see anything a 3rd level cleric or wizard could cast that does ability DRAIN--the tarrasque is immune to ability DAMAGE. Either way, they would die very quickly against a tarrasque.
And no, the tarrasque cannot be killed, even by ability drain, because the stat-block says so:
3.5 Tarrasque wrote: No form of attack deals lethal damage to the tarrasque. The tarrasque regenerates even if it fails a saving throw against a disintegrate spell or a death effect. If the tarrasque fails its save against a spell or effect that would kill it instantly (such as those mentioned above), the spell or effect instead deals nonlethal damage equal to the creature’s full normal hit points +10 (or 868 hp). The tarrasque is immune to effects that produce incurable or bleeding wounds, such as mummy rot, a sword with the wounding special ability, or a clay golem’s cursed wound ability.
The tarrasque can be slain only by raising its nonlethal damage total to its full normal hit points +10 (or 868 hit points) and using a wish or miracle spell to keep it dead.
If the tarrasque loses a limb or body part, the lost portion regrows in 1d6 minutes (the detached piece dies and decays normally). The creature can reattach the severed member instantly by holding it to the stump.
So no, you could deal ability drain to the Tarrasque, it wouldn't help you win.
In the 3.5->PF conversion, they decided to make it even stronger:
Quote: Regeneration (Ex) No form of attack can suppress the tarrasque's regeneration—it regenerates even if disintegrated or slain by a death effect. If the tarrasque fails a save against an effect that would kill it instantly, it rises from death 3 rounds later with 1 hit point if no further damage is inflicted upon its remains. It can be banished or otherwise transported as a means to save a region, but the method to truly kill it has yet to be discovered. So, once again, a high level caster can throw ability drain at it, but you won't be killing it any time soon.
EDIT: The Tarrasque is actually extremely easy to defeat, for reasons completely unrelated to ability damage/drain: it can't fly, and any PC by that level should be able to fly, so pelting it with ranged attacks from the air is a really easy way to beat the Tarrasque. If there is a mistake in the Tarrasque's stat-block, it is that the usual environment is "any", while it should be "underground".
digitalpacman wrote: "AFAIK there are no published monsters immune to ability drain but not damage. The Tarrasque is immune to ability damage (the weaker effect) but not ability drain (the stronger effect), which makes sense, since ability drain is stronger and hence harder to resist."
I found one just now, I don't have the link. But yes it exists.
"So, your theory is that the original designers of the system, along with all the hundreds of authors that have written for it, just completely didn't understand the rules and/or were lazy?"
Yes as I see typos all the time that you would find from just reading your own product. I'm a software engineer and _every_ _single_ _word_ is read by at least 3 people before it goes up to customers. And all it takes is a single read through to see typos, grammatical errors, and so forth in paizo products. I love the content, but their QA is bad.
"Now, if you could find a monster that was immune to ability drain, but not immune to ability damage, that would probably be a mistake. Which is why there aren't any such monsters."
http://www.archivesofnethys.com/MonsterDisplay.aspx?ItemName=The%20Mourning %20One
I've been doing a lot of looking into this :) And yes, development teams are people and people make mistakes.
And this particular mistake means the lore for the tarrasque is all a lie, this is why it is irking me. A level 3 cleric can take down the tarrasque in a matter of rounds with little to know danger to himself. And a level 15+ NPC cleric/wizard (who would have been trying to stop him from whatever kingdom the tarrasque is killing) would have been able stop him no problem. And since multiple nations would most likely assist then this becomes a giant joke.
How is a level 3 cleric taking Big T down? Once you answer that you can move on to telling me about the level 15 cleric, which might be possible.
It is not secret that the the books have grammatical and statblock errors. Sometimes they are really small, and sometimes, not so small.
PS:That link to nethys did not work so I went to the site, and I could not find the monster. I also could not find it on d20pfsrd.com. If there is a monster known as The Mourning you need another link.
PS2: If nations actually assisted in taking down bad guys in the games there would be no need for PC's most of the time since there are NPC's that are just as powerful and could reasonably be hurt by the current BBEG's actions.
It's the same answer for either classes. You use control undead spells to take over an incorporeal undead creature that deals ability drain. The tarrasque cannot touch incorporeal, and at low levels it takes a long time, yes, but it's just an example of it's weakness. The creature has to confirm a critical on the tarrasque for 1 wisdom damage X number of times till it's dead... but since command is DAYS of length it can just follow the tarrasque around till it happens.
The higher level cleric has an option of this one undead creature that can ONE SHOT a tarrasque with INT drain, which on a save does half. So a 1d6, 6, one shots. Min 3 rounds to kill the tarrasque. That would be a high level cleric, around 15, taking control of a CR 13 incorporeal mob.
This strategy is posted in _EVERY_ single "how to kill tarrasque" page. Google it. It's a thing.
The problem is not KILLING IT. Just STOPPING it. I am sorry if I used the word kill, that was a typo. I meant STOP a tarrasque. Once it's STOPPED, permanently, unless someone heals it, because regen does not heal drain, you can spend any number of years trying to find a way to banish it.
The link was broken because paizo's website is retarded and malformed the URL I posted. I'll try to fix it. Their site has so many problems that I've submitted and haven't been fixed (another case of lazyness :P, I could fix all these issues in a matter of minutes).
http://www.archivesofnethys.com/MonsterDisplay.aspx?ItemName=The%20Mourning %20One
NOTE: I CANNOT FIX THIS LINK THE BOARDS DONT WORK. In the URL, make sure there are no SPACES after you paste it. It is adding a space between MOURNING and the percent 20.
It is a paizo created creature from paizo created content, available to buy on their store.
CREATURES TO USE:
This is the one on every single how to tarrasque guide.
The creature must crit to do drain 1 wisdom drain. ~15 crits = disabled tarrasque
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/bestiary3/allip.html
This uses con, and will KILL the tarrasque, then he will revive, and immediately die that round, this is by far the worst solution but it will significantly slow him down making him take 3 rounds to revive and a movement to stand.
http://www.dxcontent.com/MDB_MonsterBlock.asp?MDBID=331
This is the slowest of all of them. This uses STR drain, but same concept. The main idea is to use non-con drains.
And they are weighted based on how easily the monster is to find and if it can be created. The wraith can be created, is the worst option, but since it can be created is much easier. I'm sure there are some kind of summons spells you can use to find undead... not sure never played a high level character.
http://www.dxcontent.com/MDB_MonsterBlock.asp?MDBID=1703
The higher level you get the easiest this becomes.
http://www.dxcontent.com/MDB_MonsterBlock.asp?MDBID=1817
Another con drain one, but real hard to resist
http://www.dxcontent.com/MDB_MonsterBlock.asp?MDBID=2224
This is the BEST one to use... which a 15 level cleric could easily do. Int drain. Can 1shot the tarrasque.
http://www.dxcontent.com/MDB_MonsterBlock.asp?MDBID=480
The idea is incorporeal, undead, non-con drain. Standard listed easiest way to kill a tarrasque.
digitalpacman wrote: It's the same answer for either classes. You use control undead spells to take over an incorporeal undead creature that deals ability drain. The tarrasque cannot touch incorporeal, and at low levels it takes a long time, yes, but it's just an example of it's weakness. The creature has to confirm a critical on the tarrasque for 1 wisdom damage X number of times till it's dead... but since command is DAYS of length it can just follow the tarrasque around till it happens.
The higher level cleric has an option of this one undead creature that can ONE SHOT a tarrasque with INT drain, which on a save does half. So a 1d6, 6, one shots. Min 3 rounds to kill the tarrasque. That would be a high level cleric, around 15, taking control of a CR 13 incorporeal mob.
This strategy is posted in _EVERY_ single "how to kill tarrasque" page. Google it. It's a thing.
The problem is not KILLING IT. Just STOPPING it. I am sorry if I used the word kill, that was a typo. I meant STOP a tarrasque. Once it's STOPPED, permanently, unless someone heals it, because regen does not heal drain, you can spend any number of years trying to find a way to banish it.
The link was broken because paizo's website is retarded and malformed the URL I posted. I'll try to fix it. Their site has so many problems that I've submitted and haven't been fixed (another case of lazyness :P, I could fix all these issues in a matter of minutes).
http://www.archivesofnethys.com/MonsterDisplay.aspx?ItemName=The%20Mourning %20One
NOTE: I CANNOT FIX THIS LINK THE BOARDS DONT WORK. In the URL, make sure there are no SPACES after you paste it. It is adding a space between MOURNING and the percent 20.
It is a paizo created creature from paizo created content, available to buy on their store.
CREATURES TO USE:
This is the one on every single how to tarrasque guide.
The creature must crit to do drain 1 wisdom drain. ~15 crits = disabled tarrasque
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/bestiary3/allip.html
This uses con, and will KILL the...
You are assuming the cleric will not die while trying to gain control of monster X. Big T will likely kill the cleric well before any creature kills him. At that point he should flee the scene, assuming he can outpace the undead that is going after him. Big T does have a fairly good wisdom score. I think Big T is assumed to be able to recover from anything eventually*.
This time the link worked when I copied it..That was strange, and yes I do think the monster has a typo. It should have both energy drain and energy damage listed, not just drain IMHO.
Back to the topic: Wraiths do con drain, but I don't think a level 3 cleric is going to survive combat with one on average, and even so their con drain requires a fort save.
*With all of that aside I think Big T is not worthy of a CR 25 label, but that is no secret. A level 15ish party can defeat him if prepared for him. Meeting him with little to no time to prepare is not so easy.
Back to the rules question. Damage and drain are not the same thing. One is much more severe, and the fact that they are often listed separately shows the intent.
Example:
Quote: Undead are not subject to ability drain, energy drain, or nonlethal damage. Undead are immune to damage or penalties to their physical ability scores (Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution), as well as to fatigue and exhaustion effects. Undead are not at risk of death from massive damage. As you can see the two are listed separately.
Another example:
Quote: Construct Traits (Ex) Constructs are immune to death effects, disease, mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects), necromancy effects, paralysis, poison, sleep, stun, and any effect that requires a Fortitude save (unless the effect also works on objects, or is harmless). Constructs are not subject to nonlethal damage, ability damage, ability drain, fatigue, exhaustion, or energy drain. Constructs are not at risk of death from massive damage. Once again they are listed separately.
You are assuming a single level 3 cleric.. someone playing a single player game... a party against a CR 3 is a joke.
Anyways. It wasn't a rules question, per say. It was, if this is a typo, and the rules DON'T say this, then the lore is wrong.
Something _has_ to be wrong.
I understand that they are different... it's just... grgrglellele. Makes no sense.
I'm adding immunity to damage drain onto Big T's stats.
digitalpacman wrote: You are assuming a single level 3 cleric.. someone playing a single player game... a party against a CR 3 is a joke.
Anyways. It wasn't a rules question, per say. It was, if this is a typo, and the rules DON'T say this, then the lore is wrong.
Something _has_ to be wrong.
I understand that they are different... it's just... grgrglellele. Makes no sense.
I'm adding immunity to damage drain onto Big T's stats.
I don't disagree about Big T having an overblown reputation. The problem with ability drain and Big T was noted in 3.5, but still not fixed. They did give him a ranged attack so he is a little better.
If you plan on using him in an actual game I would grant an ability to heal ability drain at rate of 1 per round or just grant flat out immunity. I would also allow him to be able to attack incorporeal creatures. The last one is mostly to keep his lore in tact.
edit: and yes I did assume a level 3 cleric which is a CR 2 because it was worded as if the cleric was running solo and wraiths are CR 5 IIRC so still tough for a party made of CR 2's, but your point about Big T not holding up does stand.
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