I believe the counterargument to this is "But fighter has to buy magic armor and weapon" and "fighter shouldn't have to spend his WBL to keep up with Wizard, and as usual, builds always pit Fighter no WBL versus Wizard w/ Wbl (and ALL the spells)
More or less.
I'm okay with the fighter being expected to spend WBL. And I'm okay with Christmas trees and all that.
But the observation is just that for every coin a fighter spends to catch up with the wizard, the wizard can spend a coin to pull further ahead. There are at least as many and at least as powerful magical items aimed at wizards as there are aimed at fighters. In fact, while I have not counted, I expect there are more.
I believe the counterargument to this is "But fighter has to buy magic armor and weapon" and "fighter shouldn't have to spend his WBL to keep up with Wizard, and as usual, builds always pit Fighter no WBL versus Wizard w/ Wbl (and ALL the spells)More or less.
I'm okay with the fighter being expected to spend WBL. And I'm okay with Christmas trees and all that.
But the observation is just that for every coin a fighter spends to catch up with the wizard, the wizard can spend a coin to pull further ahead. There are at least as many and at least as powerful magical items aimed at wizards as there are aimed at fighters. In fact, while I have not counted, I expect there are more.
I'm not sure I agree with that assertion. When I get to make a Wizard at high level I struggle to find things worth spending my funds on after I've purchased all the spells that I want.
But I think part of the problem is that many groups yada-yada through all the expensive components, spell book upkeep costs, ect.
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One of the problems is that the fighters main gig: lots of feats, is ridiculously negated by the developers insistence on putting all the worthwhile feats for a fighter behind LONG chains of prerequisites that range from mediocre to outright crappy. When you get past all that BS, the fighter probably has HALF as many decent feats as characters that don't get bonus feats.
And that's ignoring the fact that feats do far more to limit options than expand them.
@ S.E.A.L.S.-- I wouldn't put them as level 2 or 3 rangers. Those guys and other SF guys don't miss, from long range, hitting small targets, ect. I would put a CSS soldier in the Warrior or expert class, CA soldiers as fighters or rangers, and SF guys would be in the range of at least 8-10th level-- those guys are highly skilled/trained/competent. (And they even get better equipment such as higher level characters would with WBL. . .)Yup. Definitely not playing a martial character in your campaign. Not if you expect a real human being limited by reality to be somehow keeping up with 5th level spells.If you do the math on how often they hit small targets from long distances I garauntee they aren't 2nd level rangers.
And I think you would be surprised how much a sniper rifle can compensate for spells. . .
Take a look at the heavy crossbow, change the reload from a full round action to a free action, and there's your sniper rifle. That certainly doesn't compete with spells.
(If you want to discuss real world accuracy comparisons, I'm entirely non-military and would be labeled as a level 1 warrior if I was LUCKY [more likely a level 1 commoner] with maybe a 12 dex at best, but I can outshoot any 3.X first level martial character against a stationary or mostly stationary target.)
i'm not military either. i'm probably a level 1 commoner. despite the fact that by middle school, before i stopped in high school. i had a blue belt in tae-kwan do, a blue belt in kenpo, a blue belt in hapkido, a blue belt in judo, a blue belt in shotakan, and a blue belt in kendo.
Knowing Nathaneal, he would assume i had monk levels or something. but i wasn't flurrying and i sure as hell didn't use stunning fist. i couldn't take on a trained military guy, but take on 10 untrained people that are armed with an assortment of butterfly knives, billy clubs or brass knuckles. sure i could, in the correct terrain. i would have to run to a chokepoint to fight them one on one. but it isn't impossible. i couldn't take on all 10 at once. but i'm a 1st level commoner with fairly decent HP, for a commoner and fairly decent unarmed combat ability for one. i'm not a first level fighter, ranger or monk, and i'm not a 1st level brawler or warrior.
my commoner array, using nonheroic 3 point buy as a baseline would be
Strength 13 Dexterity 7 Constitution 12 Intelligence 14 Wisdom 10 Charisma 10 and i obviously have improved unarmed strike as a feat. i don't know what my second is though. but it's definitely not a combat feat. probably fast learner or skill focus knowledge (cutesy anime girls) my favored class bonus, went to skills, not HP.
i can take down other people that have commoner levels. as long as they don't have excessively advantageous weaponry. a lot of street brawlers are untrained, and i know enough of their patterns to take them down, because i was taught proper chambering and chambering, is important to any attack. i can't take down a trained gunslinger, but school bullies, sure thing.
EDIT but the eastern martial arts philosophy is to try to avoid getting your hands dirty by fighting, unless you had no choice, so i preferred to turn bullies against each other like i was Lelouch Lamperouge or something. nothing like taking unrefined savages whom exploit the weak and turning them against each other. i still, after 10 years of not practicing, know how to apply a lot of the techniques against untrained opponents. it's just my Raw attributes are a bit rusty at the age of 25 from lack of continued training.
SEALs are level 3 or 4 by Pathfinder standards, with Far Shot to increase range increments, and armed with very good modern weaponry and FE: Human for a flat +2/+2 to all attacks.
Don't forget sniper scopes also increase range tremendously. Sniper Rifles probably have range increments of 100 yds, and all of these armaments likely ignore most armor (not that AC's are going to be above 16 or so without cover.)
trying to fight a level 3 or 4 martial class as a level 2 or 3 expert is just asking to get your ass handed to you. These guys aren't 8-10...they're just 2 or 3 times as good as most people at fighting, and using better gear. Of course they are awesome.
In PF? They're the mooks a level 8 mows through, much to their fatal dismay.
==Aelryinth
To make that work you'd need Fighters to actually get skill points Aerlynth.
Honestly... in my own games I've given up on the Fighter and Rogue as separate characters. I'm working on a homebrew class that gets 6 skill points per level and a ton of Combat Feats and Rogue Talents
I agree that fighters should have more skill points.
Two other alternatives: Let Fighters and Rogues use the training rules for more skill points; double the bonuses gained from using FC bonuses to get more skill points for FIghters and Rogues; treat Toughness and FC: Hit points and give Fighters and rogues an additional set of hit points as if they had trained for more (i.e. raising their per die instead of their maximum possible.)
Another thing fighters and rogues should have is vastly lowered cost on weaponry (most martials, really). The massive overpricing of magical weapons is yet another thing driving the disparity.
==Aelryinth
Wait people have groups where the wizard is decked out in as much magic gear as the fighter?
Wealth is very lopsided in our parties. Mainly because the wizard doesn't need/want 90% of the dropped items.
The permablindness only works when they're within 30ft and also,
Why would they need crits?
Wait people have groups where the wizard is decked out in as much magic gear as the fighter?
Wealth is very lopsided in our parties. Mainly because the wizard doesn't need/want 90% of the dropped items.
Yes we have groups where the wizard gets his cut of WBL. A lot of times it's stipulated in-character; the party adventures for profit (or is a mercenary band, or...) and all proceeds are divided evenly or by a set agreement. Items aforementioned wizard cannot use get turned into other items and/or gold (through resale) and then crafted into the things he actually wants.
@ S.E.A.L.S.-- I wouldn't put them as level 2 or 3 rangers. Those guys and other SF guys don't miss, from long range, hitting small targets, ect. I would put a CSS soldier in the Warrior or expert class, CA soldiers as fighters or rangers, and SF guys would be in the range of at least 8-10th level-- those guys are highly skilled/trained/competent. (And they even get better equipment such as higher level characters would with WBL. . .)
Wait, 10th level? So if we assume a 12 Con, which is slightly tougher than average and seems reasonable, we're looking at an average of 70 hp. That'd give them about a 50/50% chance to survive AND STAY CONSCIOUS after being SUBMERGED IN MAGMA FOR 6 SECONDS. The chance to survive (but perhaps fall unconscious) would be like 80% or so.
...Yeah I vote more like level 2-3.
Also, attacking a human-sized still target at 800 ft with a early modern rifle with mounted scope, you're looking at a ranged attack at a -10 penalty against an AC of 3.
With a dex of 16, BAB +2, Weapon Focus (Rifle), a masterwork rifle, and lining up the shot, that's:
+3+2+1+1+5-10= 1d20+2 vs AC 3.
In other words, a 2nd level ranger with a good early modern firearm with a scope has a 95% chance to hit a medium-sized still target at 800 ft. I would imagine with a truly modern firearm the range increment is more like 120-200 ft, leading to the same chance to hit at 1200-2000 ft. distance.
EDIT: If we instead assume a truly modern firearm with a 200ft range increment, the same distance, and a moving but unaware target (AC 10), the chance to hit is +7+5-4= 1d20+8 vs AC10, or 90% chance. Not bad ey. Consider favored enemy on that and it's 95% which is the max by the system.
Ah, well math and stuff. Either way if that's really how these people play it explains a lot. I mean in my games Martials buy the Casters Pearls of Power so the caster can buff them without giving up a spell slot (It's only fair after all).
@ S.E.A.L.S.-- I wouldn't put them as level 2 or 3 rangers. Those guys and other SF guys don't miss, from long range, hitting small targets, ect. I would put a CSS soldier in the Warrior or expert class, CA soldiers as fighters or rangers, and SF guys would be in the range of at least 8-10th level-- those guys are highly skilled/trained/competent. (And they even get better equipment such as higher level characters would with WBL. . .)Wait, 10th level? So if we assume a 12 Con, which is slightly tougher than average and seems reasonable, we're looking at an average of 70 hp. That'd give them about a 50/50% chance to survive AND STAY CONSCIOUS after being SUBMERGED IN MAGMA FOR 6 SECONDS. The chance to survive (but perhaps fall unconscious) would be like 80% or so.
...Yeah I vote more like level 2-3.
Also, attacking a human-sized still target at 800 ft with a early modern rifle with mounted scope, you're looking at a ranged attack at a -10 penalty against an AC of 3.
With a dex of 16, BAB +2, Weapon Focus (Rifle), a masterwork rifle, and lining up the shot, that's:
+3+2+1+1+5-10= 1d20+2 vs AC 3.In other words, a 2nd level ranger with a good early modern firearm with a scope has a 95% chance to hit a medium-sized still target at 800 ft. I would imagine with a truly modern firearm the range increment is more like 120-200 ft, leading to the same chance to hit at 1200-2000 ft. distance.
EDIT: If we instead assume a truly modern firearm with a 200ft range increment, the same distance, and a moving but unaware target (AC 10), the chance to hit is +7+5-4= 1d20+8 vs AC10, or 90% chance. Not bad ey. Consider favored enemy on that and it's 95% which is the max by the system.
Where did you get the AC of 3? -7 Dex mod? So confused. . .
I have tremendous respect for SEALS. I also know that nobody on the planet ever passed level 6 by PF standards.
the best fighter/soldier on the planet MIGHT be a 5. He's probably just a 4 who got lucky with great stats and rolls.
But when you are wielding modern weapons with armor-piercing ammo, automatic fire, deadly aim, of course they look awesome. Give that same weapon to a level 8 gunslinger and suddenly you have real life Gun Fu.
A squad of SEALs could easily take down a Stone Giant, the same way a squad of Musket using Gunslingers could...and they don't have reload or misfire problems. Guns are THAT powerful.
God made man. But Sam Colt made men equal. Instead of having a warrior class based around training with weapons and armor from a very young age, you have a weapon any schmuck (like, oh, me) can pick up and use to kill someone with one shot, at a distance. That does a LOT.
But it doesn't make them level 8-10.
And if you read comics, SEALS and elite spec ops forces are the guys the heroes plow through on a regular basis. They just aren't in the same league.
==Aelryinth
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Aelryinth, the GMG itself lists a simple city guard captain as being fighter level 7. SEALs should be a tiny bit above that, at least.
The reason a guard captain is level seven is because PC's exist and the hope is that a group of players can't become despots before level 10.
Aelryinth, the GMG itself lists a simple city guard captain as being fighter level 7. SEALs should be a tiny bit above that, at least.
Its funny that the argument for limiting a S.E.A.L. to 2-3 level is bound on how much they can't do that PF fighters can, but the same people are complaining about what PF fighters can't do. . .
The reason a guard captain is level seven is because PC's exist and the hope is that a group of players can't become despots before level 10.
Correct, normal human guard captains are level 7 only for story reasons and not because they've slain a small army of orcs and giants in order to gain the necessary XP. How did they do this? Time + training + some experience seems to be the case. So...why is that not applicable to Navy SEALs, again?
Aelryinth, the GMG itself lists a simple city guard captain as being fighter level 7. SEALs should be a tiny bit above that, at least.
Level 7. As in able to butcher a grizzly bear with a knife in his hand. To tackle an otyugh without batting an eye. To jump forty feet off a building, hit the ground, and run away without breaking stride. To take a spoon and bash it through a brick wall.
THAT level 7? Um, no, SEAL not level 7. Realize that PF people fight monstrous and powerful things. SEALS fight humans. There's something of a raised bar in Pathfinder.
SEALS kill things with modern weapons that deal huge damage. That doesn't make them high level. That makes them much, much better then you or I at using modern weapons.
But it in no way makes them anywhere near level 7. In this world, you don't need to be level 7 to be awesome.
==Aelryinth
Aelryinth, the GMG itself lists a simple city guard captain as being fighter level 7. SEALs should be a tiny bit above that, at least.
What? My sources have Guard Captain as level 5.
If SEALs were above level 7 that makes them able to survive 1000 foot drops and being dipped in lava for 6 seconds.
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Who said the city guard captain ever encountered a low-tier demon, or a dire-bear, or an otyugh? There's nothing in the GMG stating that's the case. They're meant to be place-holders, an easy way to show that proficiency and toughness don't have to come from dozens of forays into monster-infested forests and caves. You seriously think that a city guard captain is a stealthier, tougher, more proficient, deadlier soldier than the guys in SEAL Team Six? Than the guys in Force Recon? Ooo-kay, you have fun with that notion, sir. Frankly, I think some people in this thread are a little too insistent on the notion that fantastic battle prowess is something only high-level fantasy heroes can possess.
Who said the city guard captain ever encountered a low-tier demon, or a dire-bear, or an otyugh? There's nothing in the GMG stating that's the case. They're meant to be place-holders, an easy way to show that proficiency and toughness don't have to come from dozens of forays into monster-infested forests and caves. You seriously think that a city guard captain is a stealthier, tougher, more proficient, deadlier soldier than the guys in SEAL Team Six? Than the guys in Force Recon? Ooo-kay, you have fun with that notion, sir. Frankly, I think some people in this thread are a little to insistent on the notion that fantastic battle prowess is something only high-level fantasy heroes can possess.
Okay. That doesn't stop being able to survive from a 1000 foot drop and being dipped in lava for 6 seconds from being completely out of reach for anyone within our world. For this reason, they couldn't possibly be level 7 or higher because that is what it entails. A completely fantastical durability.
Aelryinth, the GMG itself lists a simple city guard captain as being fighter level 7. SEALs should be a tiny bit above that, at least.What? My sources have Guard Captain as level 5.
If SEALs were above level 7 that makes them able to survive 1000 foot drops and being dipped in lava for 6 seconds.
GMG, second printing of Nov 2010. Page 261, which is chapter 9. The Watch Captain is listed as fighter level 7. It's right in front of me as I type this.
Has anyone here stopped to consider for a moment that a lot of these numbers being tossed around are abstractions and you should not be modelling EVERYTHING else in reality off of them? I'm pretty sure I've seen a Dev stating that somewhere in the past at least a few times. Or, if not a Dev, someone like James Jacobs.Okay. That doesn't stop being able to survive from a 1000 foot drop and being dipped in lava for 6 seconds from being completely out of reach for anyone within our world. For this reason, they couldn't possibly be level 7 or higher because that is what it entails. A completely fantastical durability.
It caps at 20d6 of falling damage. There have been reports, verified ones, of men in WWII who jumped out of airplanes without working chutes who landed, got beat up by trees on the way down, then walked away later. These weren't the elite soldiers of the lot, either. Sorry, but I'm going to go with PF is the abstraction that needs tweaking on occasion, not reality.
GMG, second printing of Nov 2010. Page 261, which is chapter 9. The Watch Captain is listed as fighter level 7. It's right in front of me as I type this.
Has anyone here stopped to consider for a moment that a lot of these numbers being tossed around are abstractions and you should not be modelling EVERYTHING else in reality off of them? I'm pretty sure I've seen a Dev stating that somewhere in the past at least a few times. Or, if not a Dev, someone like James Jacobs.
Okay. That doesn't stop being able to survive from a 1000 foot drop and being dipped in lava for 6 seconds from being completely out of reach for anyone within our world. For this reason, they couldn't possibly be level 7 or higher because that is what it entails. A completely fantastical durability.It caps at 20d6 of falling damage. There have been reports, verified ones, of men in WWII who jumped out of airplanes without working chutes who landed, got beat up by trees on the way down, then walked away later. These weren't the elite soldiers of the lot, either. Sorry, but I'm going to go with PF is the abstraction that needs tweaking on occasion, not reality.
Maybe since it isn't a good comparison we shouldn't compare real people to things in pathfinder.
But at this point you're just arguing semantics. If you want to translate people into the world and rules of pathfinder that includes the punishment they can take. I know for a fact that people can't be dipped in lava and survive.
Ok, lets reset and try another. . . what level do you put Logen Ninefingers at?
How am I arguing semantics? Pathfinder is meant to model real-life to a degree. Not exactly, mind-you, but I believe the idea is that you could run a low/no magic campaign set in medieval Europe off of those rules. If Nicholas Alkemade's story breaks what is believable for a martial class in PF, maybe PF needs to give those guys more durability as part of their class levels. And yes, that guy or a Navy Seal would be horribly killed in moments by being submerged in lava. So, maybe 'submerged in lava' damage needs to be increased. Why do the rules of falling and lava damage have higher precedence in the 'should not be changed' queue over those of the reality the game is attempting to emulate?
Aelryinth, the GMG itself lists a simple city guard captain as being fighter level 7. SEALs should be a tiny bit above that, at least.Its funny that the argument for limiting a S.E.A.L. to 2-3 level is bound on how much they can't do that PF fighters can, but the same people are complaining about what PF fighters can't do. . .
Ya, I mean when the choice is between an elite team of seals, or one guy who can tell the universe what to do, clearly the bet is on the mundane albeit well trained people. (Sarcasm).
But ya, that's exactly why we'd like martials to be better, because again to many people are letting our elites who are low leveled be the defining model for a martial past level 10.
The SEALs to fantasy world Guard Captain thing is an apples to oranges debate. It can't ever be won. It can't even be reasonably discussed without laying down a ton of groundwork first just to make sure everyone is on the same page.
If we want to discuss that, a new thread should be made. I'm sure the discussion would be interesting, but it's derailing this thread a lot.
Real Life Navy Seals, are level 3-4 human rangers with highly powerful weaponry that kills most opponents in a single round. they can still die to pistol crits.
Fantasy Guard Captains and Fantasy Seals, would be higher level, and do stuff drastically beyond the level of Real World Seals. remember, 8th level Ranger Fantasy Seals, are NOT modern Navy Seals, they have gained Minor Wuxiaesque powers and are taking on Fantastic foes, so the Fantasy Seals, would have be more Fantastic to take on Fantastic foes.
Hell. most soldiers whom Join the Modern Military Organizations, are 1st level Rangers with Favored Enemy (Human) and Very few, have a 16+ if pushing it.
Real Life Navy Seals, are level 3-4 human rangers with highly powerful weaponry that kills most opponents in a single round. they can still die to pistol crits.
Fantasy Guard Captains and Fantasy Seals, would be higher level, and do stuff drastically beyond the level of Real World Seals. remember, 8th level Ranger Fantasy Seals, are NOT modern Navy Seals, they have gained Minor Wuxiaesque powers and are taking on Fantastic foes, so the Fantasy Seals, would have be more Fantastic to take on Fantastic foes.
Hell. most soldiers whom Join the Modern Military Organizations, are 1st level Rangers with Favored Enemy (Human) and Very few, have a 16+ if pushing it.
Hell, I'd argue that most are Level 1 commoners as they go in to enlist, retrain into level 1 warriors after basic training, only after months of experience being able to retrain into actual PC levels, where most will only ever get one or two.
In Fantasy, you see level 7 Town guards, because the story demands it. But the reason the vast majority are level 1-3 is because that's what the vast majority of guards in fantasy worlds are. Pretty much anything above level 5 exists because you need something to throw against the PCs, who are already getting to be larger than life. Now, I wouldn't mind 1-20 running from gritty fantasy to heroic fantasy to only just barely rising above that, but were that the case, you wouldn't see fighters be able to survive the feats they can in D&D or the shear power of spells you see wizards throwing past level 9 (in fact I'd probably actually prefer it), but as D&D is written levels 4-5 are about the boundary of realism, and above that point you're already larger than life.
One of the problems is that the fighters main gig: lots of feats, is ridiculously negated by the developers insistence on putting all the worthwhile feats for a fighter behind LONG chains of prerequisites that range from mediocre to outright crappy. When you get past all that BS, the fighter probably has HALF as many decent feats as characters that don't get bonus feats.
And that's ignoring the fact that feats do far more to limit options than expand them.
So, another nice thing martial characters should have is powerful high end feats that are not behind walls of prerequisites.
(what the heck does Ray Shield have to do with Disruptive/Spellbreaker that the latter is a prerequisite for the former?)
Real Life Navy Seals, are level 3-4 human rangers with highly powerful weaponry that kills most opponents in a single round. they can still die to pistol crits.
Fantasy Guard Captains and Fantasy Seals, would be higher level, and do stuff drastically beyond the level of Real World Seals. remember, 8th level Ranger Fantasy Seals, are NOT modern Navy Seals, they have gained Minor Wuxiaesque powers and are taking on Fantastic foes, so the Fantasy Seals, would have be more Fantastic to take on Fantastic foes.
Hell. most soldiers whom Join the Modern Military Organizations, are 1st level Rangers with Favored Enemy (Human) and Very few, have a 16+ if pushing it.
Hell, I'd argue that most are Level 1 commoners as they go in to enlist, retrain into level 1 warriors after basic training, only after months of experience being able to retrain into actual PC levels, where most will only ever get one or two.
In Fantasy, you see level 7 Town guards, because the story demands it. But the reason the vast majority are level 1-3 is because that's what the vast majority of guards in fantasy worlds are. Pretty much anything above level 5 exists because you need something to throw against the PCs, who are already getting to be larger than life. Now, I wouldn't mind 1-20 running from gritty fantasy to heroic fantasy to only just barely rising above that, but were that the case, you wouldn't see fighters be able to survive the feats they can in D&D or the shear power of spells you see wizards throwing past level 9 (in fact I'd probably actually prefer it), but as D&D is written levels 4-5 are about the boundary of realism, and above that point you're already larger than life.
true
they may not be 1st level rangers when they graduate, but 1st level Ranger seems the expected path. but yeah, the only reason level 7 town guards exist, is to throw something against the PCs.
imagine the trouble the PCs could cause if the king was only a 1st or 2nd level Aristocrat like they would be in our own world. there is a Reason the Stat Blocks in the Game Mastery Guide and NPC Codex were made. throw stuff against the PCs.
Real Life Navy Seals, are level 3-4 human rangers with highly powerful weaponry that kills most opponents in a single round. they can still die to pistol crits.
Fantasy Guard Captains and Fantasy Seals, would be higher level, and do stuff drastically beyond the level of Real World Seals. remember, 8th level Ranger Fantasy Seals, are NOT modern Navy Seals, they have gained Minor Wuxiaesque powers and are taking on Fantastic foes, so the Fantasy Seals, would have be more Fantastic to take on Fantastic foes.
Hell. most soldiers whom Join the Modern Military Organizations, are 1st level Rangers with Favored Enemy (Human) and Very few, have a 16+ if pushing it.
Hell, I'd argue that most are Level 1 commoners as they go in to enlist, retrain into level 1 warriors after basic training, only after months of experience being able to retrain into actual PC levels, where most will only ever get one or two.
In Fantasy, you see level 7 Town guards, because the story demands it. But the reason the vast majority are level 1-3 is because that's what the vast majority of guards in fantasy worlds are. Pretty much anything above level 5 exists because you need something to throw against the PCs, who are already getting to be larger than life. Now, I wouldn't mind 1-20 running from gritty fantasy to heroic fantasy to only just barely rising above that, but were that the case, you wouldn't see fighters be able to survive the feats they can in D&D or the shear power of spells you see wizards throwing past level 9 (in fact I'd probably actually prefer it), but as D&D is written levels 4-5 are about the boundary of realism, and above that point you're already larger than life.
Oh come on give us some credit. I'd say most people are Expert 1 anymore. (To be honest I got rid of the Commoner class and just use Experts, because Commoner just seems odd as a class.)
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By the by, former army ranger here of 4 years, My go to war rucksack weighed in at 286 pounds... thats not counting the equipment i wore, guess what, thats over the 16 str in carrying capacity. Why was i only a ranger for 4 years... you see jumping out of a perfectly good airplane on a training mission, My parachute malfunctioned and i hit the ground going about twice as fast as i should have and it jacked my back up. Those 20d6 must have been all low rolls.
Lastly please try not to put real life versus the fantasy world. As they mentioned. You put a living being in liquid hot magma and submerse them i dont care what level they are they are crispy critter. Trying to compare what level a real world soldier would be to a fantasy charector is a silly exercise in pointlessness as for all those who seem to think theses high level fantasy monsters would just roll over out modern forces... well thats a discussion i would gladly have with you and perhaps change your mind. (its called simple things like oh... air support, calling for fire, running ambushes, baited ambushes... I could go on and on and on.)
That being said... enjoy your conversations and thanks for your time.
Lastly please try not to put real life versus the fantasy world. As they mentioned. You put a living being in liquid hot magma and submerse them i dont care what level they are they are crispy critter.
That just means there is a fixed level cap in reality.
Oh and lifeforms do exist inside nuclear reactors, so I doubt that nothing can live in lava.