I'm not sure it's entirely pointless. I like to think that every time I have to explain that "No, this set of rules works like this." Someone viewing the thread might say "Hey, I never thought of that before."
Though yes, responding the same points over and over does get very tiring. I wouldn't mind an actual discussion, but to often I find that when I present a unassailable rules position, it nonetheless comes under attack anyway.
Edit: Ya, that's a pretty good looking break down kyrt-ryder.
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@ TheNine: You realize you can make Simulacrums of other things... like Solars and Balors right? And that such creature keep their SLAs? And when would I run out of spells? Even if I did an infinitely...
Actually i am aware of that, but at the same time are you aware what a supposed omnipotent adversary means.DO you really think an All knowing All powerful, blah blah blah (no im not religious your arguement is flawed.) Is going to what sit and watch you while you build your army of minions. Especially one if you go by the bible has the ability to create anything? If you wanted to say a level 20 wizard given enough time and the ability to prepare however he wished could challenge a god then it might be a different cup of tea. But wanted to pick a fight with a god based on the words in their holy book, comparing your wizard versus a figure in it. SO your saying that what the book said about jesus is correct. If its saying Jesus can do this, then you have to take the fact god can create whatever he wants as fact. (back to the all knowing and powerful part) So your now dead, cause he decided to lay a plague on you while flooding your home and blasting it out of existance at the same time with no casting rounds or whatever equally crazy thing a being of supposed power that could be all powerful and all knowing could do.
That line of discussion is being moved to the other thread, check there for answers to your problems (and not omnipotent enough to defeat iron chariots).
In this thread though, why don't you tell what threat a Fighter poses to a deity? And how you feel that measures up to what a Wizard can do. Do you believe there is balance there?
They should be as much a threat to the status of deities at level 20 as a Wizard is. If people do not wish to take that point seriously Kirth, I find it to be an error on their part and one they would likely commit anyway, given the lack of seriousness with which many treat the gap. I mean what does it say that we have to exclude actual abilities the Wizard has to have even a basic discussion? Nothing favorable about martial classes that's for sure. But they will have some excuse why this is not at all demonstrative of any gap.
Because this is now on-topic again: judging by the state of the General Discussion board, I think most of the posters here, including myself, are in agreement that martial classes like the fighter, rogue, monk, or cavalier are in seriousness need of some love. Framing the debate, however, in terms of "Wizards can solo gods as their capstone!" sets an unrealistic expectation of where we need to raise martial power for the game to reach parity between magical and non-magical capability at high level. The recent unveiling of how mythic works shows there are power levels even a wizard at their capstone can't touch. It's a presumed power level that's existed forever, Paizo simply spelled it out for us at its most basic with that book.
There's a reason why the argument you're making for wizard power is called the "Batman wizard". Each scenario it's trotted out in paints an enemy as facing off against a PC that has apparently near-limitless resources and had time to study the enemy in order to plan out an attack that goes after all their known weakness. Presumably, the wizard also has an ungodly number of buff spells up as well. I don't know about you, but I've never seen a high-level game work like that. Taking the book that Blood Money comes from as an example, the party has no idea what to expect in the Eye of Avarice besides just Karzoug. If your party was level 20, a single wizard could never solo that room, not after everything else they'd done that day.
So, please, let's give those who doubt Tar Baphon could kill Pharasma some credit. He couldn't take Aroden pre-god, I don't think he's going to slay the arbiter of all life-after-death or her kind any time soon. Claiming otherwise is not going to help close the gap any time sooner.
Oh trust me, a regular joe Caster can absolutely murder a Mythic Opponent (provided they are not a Mythic Caster obviously) with little to no effort, a few extra abilities is not going to save them from the chasm of disparity.
And believe you me, if they gave the Gods stats, there would be a caster build that could kill them as a matter of course on the boards in... oh lets say 3 hours. And actually Andreww has been showing solo runs of various things with a 20th level sorcerer and he's put some pretty big limitations on himself. See this thread: Here.
So ya. Show me a martial that can do that.
I won't because I can't because, as I said, I can see that martials don't play by the same empowering rule-set. My issue is with claiming a non-mythic caster can take out a god, since pretty much all gods are expected to also be spellcasters OR, at the very least, have Miracle as a SLA at will. They are an undefined level of supreme power that is to mythic tiers what mythic tiers are to normal levels: something which increases power and capability exponentially. Just to put this in perspective, if I were to claim Karzoug could kill Baba Yaga by just walking up to her hut and unloading, what would your response be?
Gods in pathfinder have neither stats nor CR. No PC can touch them without a GM fiat.
A MT 100000000, Level 10000000000000000 Wizard/Cleric couldn't kill a god anymore than a lvl 3 martial.
I won't because I can't because, as I said, I can see that martials don't play by the same empowering rule-set. My issue is with claiming a non-mythic caster can take out a god, since pretty much all gods are expected to also be spellcasters OR, at the very least, have Miracle as a SLA at will. They are an undefined level of supreme power that is to mythic tiers what mythic tiers are to normal levels: something which increases power and capability exponentially. Just to put this in perspective, if I were to claim Karzoug could kill Baba Yaga by just walking up to her hut and unloading, what would your response be?
Considering Baba Yaga is a mythic Witch, it would probably come down to whose prepared more and who wins initiative.
See the problem is when they get defined. A mythic tier martial is no real threat to a non-mythic caster. And really assuming all Gods would get miracle is what makes this discussion hard, because there's no real evidence that's the case, but you insist on it like it is. Most gods are not that impressive. The powers of Zeus can easily be replicated by 13th level Druid, so really just because something calls itself a "god" isn't something to get all impressed about.
Baba Yaga would win obviously, but that's because she's a stronger caster.
See the problem is when they get defined. A mythic tier martial is no real threat to a non-mythic caster. And really assuming all Gods would get miracle is what makes this discussion hard, because there's no real evidence that's the case, but you insist on it like it is. Most gods are not that impressive. The powers of Zeus can easily be replicated by 13th level Druid, so really just because something calls itself a "god" isn't something to get all impressed about.
Baba Yaga would win obviously, but that's because she's a stronger caster.
I didn't say it had to be Miracle at will, but why is that so unbelievable? What, it's fine to assume your 200,000 simulacrum army will carry a quarter million cubic miles of water into another planet without a hitch, but ascribing to a god the power to shape reality as gods have been described doing for centuries is somehow beyond belief? We're not talking Zeus or Thor or here, when man-kind had less imagination for what ultimate power really meant. We're talking beings who ignited all the stars in the Prime (Desna), who can process billions of souls into their respective afterlives each second (Pharasma), who imprisoned the mad Qlippoth god of destruction in a super-dimensional cage the size of a planet (Asmodeus). Your free Wish is ludicrously weak in comparison to such acts. Your wizard would get crushed under Baba Yaga's heel (you can't kill her, she's actually immortal, and not just the against old-age kind), and she's not even capable of posing a threat to these beings.
Now, should your wizard ever actually acquire 10 mythic tiers and a number of divine ranks, then yes, that would make more sense claiming you could slay Nethys one-on-one. Until then, it's pointless hot air that does not help address the martial / caster power disparity debate.
Because there are rules for doing one of those things. And believe me, if you give Nethys specific abilities and not just fluff, he'll be very killable. Extremely so. Look at the 3.5 Deities to see how this dance goes.
Your wizard would get crushed under Baba Yaga's heel (you can't kill her, she's actually immortal, and not just the against old-age kind), and she's not even capable of posing a threat to these beings.
I have Baba Yaga's stats: http://www.archivesofnethys.com/MythicMonsterDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Baba%20Y aga
She come back to life but she is killable. So just knock her into negatives and unconscious then turn her to stone bypassing her immortality or Imprison her at center of earth (can't free yourself).
That's because 3.5 had epic rules, where you could gain, theoretically, an infinite number of levels. Some of the gods there only had 20-30 class levels and no other HD, plus some okay divine powers. Pathfinder, otoh, hard caps players to 20. It's a completely different design paradigm. The rules for statting up gods don't exist yet because Paizo isn't quite sure how to express that level of supernatural power, or if it's wise to try. You can extrapolate how hard it might be, though, considering 10 mythic tiers making you unkillable except by a major artifact. Now consider how much harder it will be to kill something that is to max mythic what mythic is to non-mythic. You don't have to take measurements down to the eighth decimal place to see the power divide and know that, if you mess with something like that, you're screwed. It's equivalent to the 10th level sorcerer thinking he can take on Rovagug: in a word, delusional.
EDIT: left out a couple words
Umm.. the 3.5 Deities were considered jokes for most level 20 casters to handle. And a mythic non-caster will lose to a regular caster. So really... I don't see your point here.
The thing is, Anzyr, wizards are Tier 1 even in the absence of stoopidly broken splatbook spells like blood money. Hinging arguments on that spell just leads the ignorant masses to think that the game is perfectly balanced in all other respects, when in fact it's anything but.
Likewise, simulacrum is so geared towards abuse that it derves to be its own topic, not part of the caster-vs.-martials one.
And, pretty please, take the Yahweh stuff into that thread. Cluttering up the "what should martials have" thread with it just encourages people to not take anything in this one seriously.
I agree that this is the practical effect.
It's even encouraging me to take this thread less seriously, and I want martial characters to have nice things.
Umm.. the 3.5 Deities were considered jokes for most level 20 casters to handle.
*eye twitch
Bro do you even divine ranks?
In Deities and Demigods ALL the gods had 40 levels, 20 in two classes plus broken as hell divine ranks. The most powerful deities had 19 divine ranks. 21+ divine ranks deities were beyond the ken of mortals, as in you could neither know about them or conceive of them.
High enough ranked deities can utter the word "death" to kill any mortal even dragons with no save.
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The thing is, Anzyr, wizards are Tier 1 even in the absence of stoopidly broken splatbook spells like blood money. Hinging arguments on that spell just leads the ignorant masses to think that the game is perfectly balanced in all other respects, when in fact it's anything but.
Likewise, simulacrum is so geared towards abuse that it derves to be its own topic, not part of the caster-vs.-martials one.
And, pretty please, take the Yahweh stuff into that thread. Cluttering up the "what should martials have" thread with it just encourages people to not take anything in this one seriously.
I agree that this is the practical effect.
It's even encouraging me to take this thread less seriously, and I want martial characters to have nice things.
Martials DO have issues. Caster/martial disparity is a problem.
That being said, casters are being WAY too over hyped in this thread. Makes the whole issue seem silly and only occurs on op boards by munchkin powergamers upset that they can't make a fighter that can create plane eating black holes with the swing of a butter-knife
Umm.. the 3.5 Deities were considered jokes for most level 20 casters to handle.*eye twitch
Bro do you even divine ranks?
In Deities and Demigods ALL the gods had 40 levels, 20 in two classes plus broken as hell divine ranks. The most powerful deities had 19 divine ranks. 21+ divine ranks deities were beyond the ken of mortals, as in you could neither know about them or conceive of them.
High enough ranked deities can utter the word "death" to kill any mortal even dragons with no save.
Wait, so technically all the Outer Gods were divine rank 21+?
Also, be nice to each other. No reason to be insulting when discussing your point of view. :)
Can't say I've read all the pages.
Has anyone mentioned flight by lvl 10 though? If not, that.
The thing is, Anzyr, wizards are Tier 1 even in the absence of stoopidly broken splatbook spells like blood money. Hinging arguments on that spell just leads the ignorant masses to think that the game is perfectly balanced in all other respects, when in fact it's anything but.
Likewise, simulacrum is so geared towards abuse that it derves to be its own topic, not part of the caster-vs.-martials one.
And, pretty please, take the Yahweh stuff into that thread. Cluttering up the "what should martials have" thread with it just encourages people to not take anything in this one seriously.
I agree that this is the practical effect.
It's even encouraging me to take this thread less seriously, and I want martial characters to have nice things.
Martials DO have issues. Caster/martial disparity is a problem.
That being said, casters are being WAY too over hyped in this thread. Makes the whole issue seem silly and only occurs on op boards by munchkin powergamers upset that they can't make a fighter that can create plane eating black holes with the swing of a butter-knife
I'm not sure anyone is overhyping casters, some of us just like to remember what exactly the upper limits of casters *are* even to some people that is "munchkin powergaming".
The larger thrust of my point that seems to keep getting missed is that as kyrt-ryder helpfully labeled for us 17-20 is the functional god level of play, so I feel that at that level Martials should abilities that make them functionally god like. Same at the 13-16 range, martials should be doing demigod level stuff. Does that make the point clearer?
I'd interpret him as a Barbarian and ya I'd be ok with pegging him at 8-9 at the current point in the story, 10 was really just an off hand nice even number.
a Lot of Mythological Heroes, Shonen Protagonists, Novel Heroes, and Movie characters can be replicated by 4th level or lower Pathfinder Characters with 14s to 16s in their primary stats if you take the following into account.
1. a lot of them, could be either gestalted or mimicked by a hybrid class, Batman, Aragorn, Eragon, and Aladdin could all be done fairly well with Ranger levels. the latter 2 cases, with DMPCs
2. a significant number, had a lot more wealth than a 4th level character should have. Batman has unlimited funds, King Arthur had a few powerful Magic Toys, Chu-Chulainn had a highly advanced spear with all sorts of Tech Advantages
3. a good number, had powers gained from race or templates, on top of their class levels. Superman was a Kryptonian, Achilles and Hercules, had the Son of Zeus Template
4. a lot of them, used unofficial or even homebrewed feats, so 3.5 and 3pp material may be needed. a lot of Gut's abilities come from the Iron Heart Discipline and Warblade levels. yeah, Guts might be a little higher, but he isn't 10th, 8th would be pushing it
5. a lot of them, were fighting lower powered enemies, Eragon was mostly fighting human warriors, and it took him a great deal of effort, or help, to defeat a single Urgal. Urgals are basically reskinned CR4 minotuars
6. a lot of the characters either multiclassed, or used unique archetypes with special progressions. some probably used multiclass archetypes too.
7. a lot of the characters, ignored the 'daily uses' limitation on their abilities and casters often followed a sorcerer or psion template of limited known options, rather than a wizard one of preparing in advance.
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Uh, Eragon at the start is totally low level, once he starts getting his No Save Just Dies and Mind Rape Promises and his nonsense "Be an Elf" upgrade... less so. But ya he's probably not knocking on level 20's door.
No one is claiming Batman is high level. Or King Arthur. Chu-Chulainn however can jump on a spear. That's not an effect of the spear its something he can just do.
But nothing in DBZ is level 4. Not even the first episode where the ability to fly is a matter of course. The ninja's in Naruto? I'm sorry but their actually Wizards and they toss around high level spells routinely. Impure World Resurrection is not Level 4 or even Level 16, we're talking at least a 9th level spell though more likely an Epic Spell from 3.0 considering how stupid powerful it is.
Sorry but for most Shonen Hero's level 4 isn't going to work. For some mythological characters it will. Perseus is nothing special, but Hercules is definitely higher then level 4 (though probably not 10) divine parentage not with standing he accomplishes impressive things.
Uh, Eragon at the start is totally low level, once he starts getting his No Save Just Dies and Mind Rape Promises and his nonsense "Be an Elf" upgrade... less so. But ya he's probably not knocking on level 20's door.
No one is claiming Batman is high level. Or King Arthur. Chu-Chulainn however can jump on a spear. That's not an effect of the spear its something he can just do.
But nothing in DBZ is level 4. Not even the first episode where the ability to fly is a matter of course. The ninja's in Naruto? I'm sorry but their actually Wizards and they toss around high level spells routinely. Impure World Resurrection is not Level 4 or even Level 16, we're talking at least a 9th level spell though more likely an Epic Spell from 3.0 considering how stupid powerful it is.
Sorry but for most Shonen Hero's level 4 isn't going to work. For some mythological characters it will. Perseus is nothing special, but Hercules is definitely higher then level 4 (though probably not 10) divine parentage not with standing he accomplishes impressive things.
there aren't many Shonen heroes i would Peg at 10th level off the bat, let alone 11+. but in a lot of the long running mainstream works. a lot of them climb quickly.
Hercules can be done with a 4th level human barbarian whom took a Template called "Scion of Zeus"
Off the bat no, but Ruby Rose from RWBY for example is definetly starting at higher then 6th level, I'd peg her at around 10th personally and a good example of what a martial character should be able to accomplish. Namely they should be able to mow down an small group of mooks while moving. And pull off some fancy footwork, and of course overkill their targets thoroughly.
I think the other problem with balancing martials is that when they do anything outside their humdrum 1-6 just like reality, people immediately peg it as epic. You shouldn't need more then 20 levels to do the stuff Gutz does... 10 maybe, sure. After all, after 6-10, you've already moved past heroic fantasy. 11-16 is it's own game and Gilgamesh and Gutz would be very at home there.Since Guts got brought up.....
(I am ignoring class, Guts could be interpreted as either Fighter [though he demonstrates more skills than his int would imply of a Fighter], Barbarian, or some 3pp or 3.5 splat class.
Level 1-2: Guts at the point he first meets Griffith
Level 4: Guts at the point where he first engages Zodd
Level 5: Guts at the point where he leaves the Band of the Hawk
Level 6: Guts at the point where the flashback arc (and original anime series, and recent film trilogy) ends (not saying s+&$ about what that particular encounter is for the sake of those who aren't familiar with the story)
I'd say up to this point in the Manga (ignoring the powerup of Artifact Armor), he's probably around level 8 or 9 in my book.
You seriously underestimate Guts and Zodd. Guts is lvl 15 or higher. Probably a hybrid barbarian/two-hander fighter.
Zodd is probably a CR 18 to 20 demon.
The only way your simulation works is if you make all the enemies lvl 1 fighter types rather than a mix of levels.
I certainly wouldn't design encounters or Guts the same way you would. I would make the demon creatures a great deal more powerful.
Griffith would be at least a lvl 10 to 14 fighter when they first meet. Cosca probably a lvl 6 to 8 when they first meet. Guts the same.
I probably wouldn't even have Pathfinder type casters in the game. That world obviously doesn't have casters of that type. Which is another option for those wanting something different: the removal of 9 level casters from the game.
With the advent of 6 level caster options, you can run entire campaigns without a lvl 9 caster in the mix. It seems to hit closer to the mark of what a lot of people in threads like these want. Probably why Paizo started adding so many 6 lvl casters. Evens things out a bit and scales better.
Uh, Eragon at the start is totally low level, once he starts getting his No Save Just Dies and Mind Rape Promises and his nonsense "Be an Elf" upgrade... less so. But ya he's probably not knocking on level 20's door.
No one is claiming Batman is high level. Or King Arthur. Chu-Chulainn however can jump on a spear. That's not an effect of the spear its something he can just do.
But nothing in DBZ is level 4. Not even the first episode where the ability to fly is a matter of course. The ninja's in Naruto? I'm sorry but their actually Wizards and they toss around high level spells routinely. Impure World Resurrection is not Level 4 or even Level 16, we're talking at least a 9th level spell though more likely an Epic Spell from 3.0 considering how stupid powerful it is.
Sorry but for most Shonen Hero's level 4 isn't going to work. For some mythological characters it will. Perseus is nothing special, but Hercules is definitely higher then level 4 (though probably not 10) divine parentage not with standing he accomplishes impressive things.
there aren't many Shonen heroes i would Peg at 10th level off the bat, let alone 11+. but in a lot of the long running mainstream works. a lot of them climb quickly.
Hercules can be done with a 4th level human barbarian whom took a Template called "Scion of Zeus"
Hercules could also be a lvl 20 character with some interesting magic items.
It's all how you decide to set up the situation.
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Not really. Because Hercules is not threat to an 11th level caster. Same thing with Guts. I'm also not sure why you think every demon has to be some CR 18+ monstrosity, when thats only the rare few. Most demons are infact more in 5-13 range. And most of their enemies during the Flashback Arc/Anime are just Joe Soldiers. They aren't super extra special soldiers, their level 1-3 Warriors, with a few classed people of higher level tossed in for drama.
Not really. Because Hercules is not threat to an 11th level caster. Same thing with Guts. I'm also not sure why you think every demon has to be some CR 18+ monstrosity, when thats only the rare few. Most demons are infact more in 5-13 range. And most of their enemies during the Flashback Arc/Anime are just Joe Soldiers. They aren't super extra special soldiers, their level 1-3 Warriors, with a few classed people of higher level tossed in for drama.
Hercules is a threat if I decide to make him a threat. Hercules father is Zeus. So if some lvl 11 Pathfinder caster is screwing with his son, maybe he decides to gift Hercules with a sword that makes him immune to magic, dispels effects that strike him, and cuts through caster defenses. You know like what Zeus gave Perseus to take on the Medusa. Maybe Hercules skins a griffon gaining the power of flight, so he can fly after Mr. Caster Man. My fighter players are fairly proactive about obtaining what they need to hammer casters or at least be competitive. It doesn't always work, but they aren't the rubes so many on here make them out to be.
You don't know what the characters were in the flashback arc. They could be lvl 1 warriors, lvl 3 fighters, lvl 6 rangers. It's all what you decide to make them.
Zodd was the strongest of the strong amongst the demons. You can simulate that with a CR 3 to 5 creature in a low level campaign for a CR 15 to 18 creature in a high level campaign.
It's all how you decide to work it. Rule set is flexible and allows a lot of different design options other than the one that fits your view of the world. One you are a proselytizing to support your viewpoint.
I could design Guts in a low level or high level campaign and create an appropriate characterization. I'd definitely be wanting Guts to have Improved Cleaving Finish and be a high level Two-Hander fighter archetype. That fits what the character was doing.
Obviously a Pathfinder version of Guts would have to have appropriate Pathfinder magic items and the like, otherwise it would be hard to survive.
No one is claiming Batman is high level.Batman is weird. Nobody much minds Batman hanging out with Superman to fight cosmic threats and taking an occasional punch from Darkseid, along the lines of Morrison JLA or (sigh) Loeb Superman & Batman, but at the same time he's also supposed to be seriously threatened by Black Mask, whose superpower is about three dozen dudes with assault rifles.
Fiction does not map onto linear power scales very well sometimes!
It's probably because Batman went from being world's greatest detective to being the "G&~ D&#NED BATMAN!," to being able to breath in space.
I'm not sure where martial characters should move to on that continuum, but I'm not even sure if they're the world's greatest detective yet. Probably because lack of skill ranks more than anything.
I feel like people miss the point of pure martial, which is to be the underdog.. No fireballs or polymorphs, just a sword, gun or bow in your hand, and a quarter inch thick piece of steel on your back, and you're all that's inbetween the dragon and the small town. Barbarians spit on magic, fighters kill without it, Monks deflect it, and rogues just walk around it.
Heck even some rangers and paladins avoid it...
If you ask me.... i like the idea of "Screw magic, i'm grabbing an axe" and being the underdog
Depends on the martial this is not an underdog
This on the other hand is an underdog who over comes the odds and is what I want out of martials.
EDIT: Read Berserk. Totally worth it. Not all Japanese martials have weaboo fightan magic.
I know I'm double posting here, but my edit-time ran out on that last post.
Have you tried to build Guts as a 3.5 or PF martial? I have, believe me, I've pulled out all the stops.
The ONLY way you can actually get fairly close within a semi-reasonable level frame to replicating many of his feats-of-prowess is via access to the Iron Heart discipline via Warblade.
Sure a level 20 PF fighter might be able to somewhat mirror things Guts does... if you include access to 3.5 and 3pp feats, but A: you're at least twice Guts' actual level, and B: nobody plays with all of that material.
Gatz* was solo-ing CR 15 or higher demons by himself without magical gear. Later in the manga he slays a demi-god without gear and barely any help. It's revealed that his sword** has some neat bane-like properties from slaying SO many demons. Then he gets some cursed magic armor and slays an actual God colossal+++ super demon, basically solo***.
That last feat is one a party of level 40 characters would have trouble pulling off with proper gear. I would put Guts/Gatz/Gutz/Gats at least 20+ after the golden age with levels in barbarian.
*(to introduce how the translators never stick to the same name)
**it was too big to be called a sword. Massive, thick, heavy, and far too rough. Indeed, it was a heap of raw iron.
***Some outside helps, plus help to negate the curse part of his armor
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Weren't you aware? All NPC fighters in all stories are level 1 Warriors, and since the heroes who fight them fight only level 1 Warriors they cannot be higher than 4th level. . . its a circular logic trap you can never beat-- if the enemy in the book has no name and backstory, he is automatically a 1st level warrior, and that is used as justification for underestimating the good guys levels.
Obviously a Pathfinder version of Guts would have to have appropriate Pathfinder magic items and the like, otherwise it would be hard to survive.
And this here is the problem with estimating Gutz's level. He doesn't have magical gear*.
*for the most part
Later in the manga he slays a demi-god without gear and barely any help. It's revealed that his sword** has some neat bane-like properties from slaying SO many demons. Then he gets some cursed magic armor and slays an actual God colossal+++ super demon, basically solo***.
While I
a) don't into anime
and
b) suspect from your post that you may be correct overall that this guy is best represented at higher level than 10th,
I will comment that it's hard to calibrate expected level from facing threats that vanilla Pathfinder, unlike many other similar systems, explicitly refuses to quantify mechanically in any way related to the level system, either high or low. I.e., divinities. In most myths, however, (including those of Pathfinder in a non mechanical sense, as well as past editions of Dnd*) deities are not at all beyond the reach of mortal weapons, nor is competition with the gods on equal or superior footing, in a broad sense, limited to what 3.x would consider high or epic levels.
(*My GM once referred to the following, though I am not myself intimately familiar).
[00:16] <@Kain> The justicar killed a god at 10th level
[00:16] <Heinrick> I've never read the Greyhawk books, but didn't he have help? Or an artifact or something?
[00:17] <Heinrick> or did he really just walk up to the Real No Fooling Lolth and gank her with his 10th level skills and level-appropriate magic items?
[00:17] <@Kain> His party consisted of another 10th level character, a 3rd level character, a gynosphinx and a 4th level expert.
[00:17] <Heinrick> and by "help," I should have specified "incredibly potent supernatural help such as from another god."
[00:17] <@Kain> It was however, the real no fooling Lolth.
[00:18] <@Kain> And he definitely didn't have any other godly help.
[00:18] <Heinrick> and people accept this?
[00:18] <@Kain> Why wouldn't they?
[00:18] <Heinrick> How did they explain a god dying that easily to a bunch of chumps?
[00:19] <@Kain> Because Jus and his friends aren't a bunch of chumps.
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Weren't you aware? All NPC fighters in all stories are level 1 Warriors, and since the heroes who fight them fight only level 1 Warriors they cannot be higher than 4th level. . . its a circular logic trap you can never beat-- if the enemy in the book has no name and backstory, he is automatically a 1st level warrior, and that is used as justification for underestimating the good guys levels.
I don't think your hyperbole is accurate and I continue to feel that hyperbole more broadly (from either side) does nothing but harm the tone of this discussion.
Now, when I statted up Beowulf at 13th level (the first RL literature NPC I did so for Pathfinder; and as mentioned, statting up the hero himself required outright breaking the rules), I statted his lesser companions at 4th level for the unnamed companion guys of which Hondscioh (the one killed by Grendel) was the only named exception. They are a pretty badass bunch, and one of them kills a sea monster himself on-screen (as it were). I think Wiglaf got to be level 5 (though I might re-evaluate that if I did it again; he's pretty clearly new at the whole fighting thing, and his moment of glory comes from his loyalty and his heirloom blade, explicitly not from his experience).
Just because one adopts an approach to estimating the levels of historic/epic characters that is more based on trying to peg their feats and powers in relation to Pathfinder's standard difficulties and CRs (the approach that puts Aragorn under level 10) rather than their story importance in relation to Pathfinder's level scale (the approach cited to place Aragorn at level 20) does not mean one adopts an approach that renders every martial in story at level 1. In fact, that's the opposite of what it means in a lot of cases - which is a reason this particular hyperbole is notable for its unhelpfulness.
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People place way to much importance on people calling themselves gods. "Slew a demi-god/god" is shorthand for "Killed a dude who thought way to highly of himself. Or was using the literal definition of "one who controls an aspect of reality" but in that case any high enough caster can call themselves a god accurately so that is not very helpful. Lets just all agree that around level 13 you count as a demigod and at 17 a god eh?
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No one is claiming Batman is high level.Batman is weird. Nobody much minds Batman hanging out with Superman to fight cosmic threats and taking an occasional punch from Darkseid, along the lines of Morrison JLA or (sigh) Loeb Superman & Batman, but at the same time he's also supposed to be seriously threatened by Black Mask, whose superpower is about three dozen dudes with assault rifles.
Fiction does not map onto linear power scales very well sometimes!
It's probably because Batman went from being world's greatest detective to being the "G*$ D#%NED BATMAN!," to being able to breath in space.
I'm not sure where martial characters should move to on that continuum, but I'm not even sure if they're the world's greatest detective yet. Probably because lack of skill ranks more than anything.
Batman isn't exactly the world's greatest detective, either. If any of the Bat-family deserve that title, it's Oracle.
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The problem we're having is that D&D/Pathfinder wants to position itself as the fantasy genre roleplaying game, accepting and catering to all lovers of fantasy. The trouble with that is that "fantasy" is a very big tent that encompasses, broadly speaking:
1. High Fantasy (Tolkein)
2. Sword and Sorcery (Howard/Lieber)
3. Weird Fiction (Dunsany/Lovecraft)
4. Wuxia/Anime (Jin Yong)
5. Steampunk (Verne)
These different genres play by different rules, or in other words their worlds have different physics. The game system's job is essentially to simulate physics (entertainingly, not necessarily "realistically"). Well, it simply cannot do that simultaneously for all these different sorts of realities.
High Fantasy heroes (in order to simply be what they are) will always end up trivializing the alien challenges of Weird Fiction, for instance. Wuxia heroes will in most cases trivialize the more mundane heroics of most Sword and Sorcery protagonists, and so on. Yes, it may be possible to some degree to fold these genres into each other, Tarantino-like. But that requires more aesthetic sensitivity than I think most of us have, or care to develop (and certainly more than the APs and such currently demonstrate).
Some will take the hardline position of "Pathfinder is Tolkein, period." Well, that's simply unhelpful. I would like to point out that Gygax hated Tolkein, and included Tolkeinesque elements in D&D only under extreme pressure from his friends. As for myself, anime was infinitely more significant in the development of my own love of fantasy than Tolkein. I watched Ninja Scroll years before I read The Hobbit (and never would have read the latter had I not seen the former). My ex-girlfriend from Taiwan loved wuxia novels, and became interested in D&D almost purely because of the idea that it could simulate those worlds. I'm sure there are innumerable similar examples out there. Now I also love Dunsany (to whom, honestly, we owe much more than we do to Tolkein) and Lieber and Lovecraft and Yong and many more. But I don't fool myself into thinking that I can play a game that is at once Eagle Shooting Heroes, Journey to the Center of the Earth, The Hobbit, The Willows, Innsmouth, Samurai Reincarnation and The Scarlet Citadel.
I would like to point out, however, that in virtually none of the classic tales of any of these sub-genres are wizards (in the way that Pathfinder conceptualizes them) the heroes of the story. Usually they are villains. Mouser is a Rogue with a few minor spells. Even Gandalf would almost certainly be an NPC. There's Elric, sure, but he's not meant for the ensemble casting style that RPGs require. The inclusion of Wizards (and their ilk) as a character class was the enormous mistake of D&D from its inception, which we are still trying to deal with today. "Wizard" should have been an entry in the Monster Manual.