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I used to get around this in BECMI D&D by having the focus of high-level Fighters being on running their dominion and having armies to lead. The high-level mage may have an apprentice or two but otherwise all of their power was within them - the Cleric may have an arm of the church but would be constrained by religious limitations, and the Thief might have power within the Guild but would still have to face the fact most of their followers were... well... Thieves, and therefore mostly in it for themselves.
Only the Fighter would have that power to stand as a peer against other rulers. Only the Fighter would have that power to influence entire nations. The Fighter would be the one that could commandeer a ship from their fleet if the characters needed one, would have the resources to set up a guarded base camp in a remote location, and so forth.
Sure, any character could technically run a dominion (and often did), but I always gave Fighters the equivalent of an unwritten Ruler feat that would mean they'd end up with more people flocking to them to live under their (hopefully benevolent, although not necessarily) rule and armies that would be inspired just by having them standing in the vanguard.
That's the type of power I'd like to see for core martials - power over others, rather than innate power. I've nothing against having additional options allowing people to tailor those characters in more fantastic ways, but I also believe there's always a place for a default "I'm just a guy who can fight really, really well - so well that people will fall in beside me without question" martial character. Equally, I've nothing against having new martial classes that use various other forms of power - I just wouldn't want to see the "normal guy" option disappear.
Zilvar, it seems like you have some narritive problems facing you there. To get around the Greater Teleporting into the BBEG's room, I'd suggest saying that you're party's not nearly ready to fight yet, requiring your party to train further on those encounters. Spells on the baddies' end such as Teleport Trap and Forbiddance would deter your casters from trying them again if they make it out alive.
Simulacru-yeah, unless used for strictly roleplaying purposes, simulacrum is broken-ish; I'd recommend not allowing that spell to give profane bonuses or Wishes or the like. Blood Money I don't see the hate for, but it still leaves you in the red for when anyone who can do strength damage shows up. Scry can be blocked in so many ways, it's not even funny. Use this with the actual rulings of (Greater) Teleport, wherein you need to know where you're going to actually show up there, and the mage isn't bypassing a whole lot. And if you're going to tell me a straight up Fireball is OP, I think we're playing some very different playstyles here.
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Mountain trolls are CR 15. Cave troll is CR6.Why not? Cave Troll is what CR 12? Could have four or five levels of Fighter on top of that? CR 17 Cave Troll?
Seems like you are just guessing and assigning arbitrary levels to characters without any real specific reasons?
In Pathfinder. This discussion has largely ignored the fact that Pathfinder monsters are not always exact duplicates of Middle-Earth monsters that happen to share the same names. (Nathanael Love excepted, who seems to be the only other person to realize that Sauron's most trusted lieutenant that has DR 500/woman would probably translate so something more intimidating that a CR 5 wraith.)
By the way, Gandalf wasn't a wizards (not really). He was a demi-god. And yet the Balrog killed him. He only came back through the direct intervention of Eru (essentially Middle-Earth's overgod).
I don't know about that. If martials could be able to do that, why would anyone play a caster? I look at it in the opposite direction. Martials should be so antimagic, they bust down Walls of Force no problem. Or at least get bonuses to save against magic effects because come on.
However, I think that your point helped me realize something. The casters in Pathfinder as is are intended to deal with the BBEG's magical defenses, dispelling and counter-spelling as often as possible, while the martials face them in the ring and rain down blows.
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Zilvar, it seems like you have some narritive problems facing you there. To get around the Greater Teleporting into the BBEG's room, I'd suggest saying that you're party's not nearly ready to fight yet, requiring your party to train further on those encounters. Spells on the baddies' end such as Teleport Trap and Forbiddance would deter your casters from trying them again if they make it out alive.
Simulacru-yeah, unless used for strictly roleplaying purposes, simulacrum is broken-ish; I'd recommend not allowing that spell to give profane bonuses or Wishes or the like. Blood Money I don't see the hate for, but it still leaves you in the red for when anyone who can do strength damage shows up. Scry can be blocked in so many ways, it's not even funny. Use this with the actual rulings of (Greater) Teleport, wherein you need to know where you're going to actually show up there, and the mage isn't bypassing a whole lot. And if you're going to tell me a straight up Fireball is OP, I think we're playing some very different playstyles here.
To agree with Zilvar2k11, consider that if the entire material plane is threatened by X, Y or Z, a high enough caster (9th level cleric) can just go "Eh, Plane shift". Low rocks block your path? Not with Stone Shape. Don't know what the background for the adventure is? Hit it with divinations and the GM might as well hand over his notes. Need to make some armor faster then any crafter? Fabricate. The issue is that when presented with a scenario, whether political intrigue, resource management, mystery, or action, the caster has the power to change the narrative. The fighter meanwhile... can fight.
I don't know about that. If martials could be able to do that, why would anyone play a caster? I look at it in the opposite direction. Martials should be so antimagic, they bust down Walls of Force no problem. Or at least get bonuses to save against magic effects because come on.
However, I think that your point helped me realize something. The casters in Pathfinder as is are intended to deal with the BBEG's magical defenses, dispelling and counter-spelling as often as possible, while the martials face them in the ring and rain down blows.
Martials tend to be more useless then casters when antimagic field shows up, since casters have animated/called minions that will usually be scarier then a magic item less fighter. Furthermore, its a great chance to fly away (since Ex flight is pretty limited) and hit the Fighter with conjuration spells at the fighter's now significantly reduced statistics.
The problem with casters being there to dispel magic defenses is that it basically amounts to "Magic must fight magic."which can be humorous its largely a reason for the real protagonists who have magic to fight the big bad evil guy while Section 13 (the fighters/rogues) stand around doing nothing.
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Sauron's most trusted lieutenant that has DR 500/woman
That was a prophecy, not a property of him.
Whoeverthef&%$ elf it was who foresaw that the Witch King's doom would be far off and not by man, didn't grant the Witch King DR 500/woman by doing it. No more than Apollo mystically granted Oedipus +500 damage vs. fathers by virtue of noticing that hey in the future that kid's gonna kill his dad.
The Witch King was not immune to mortal male warriors (shown not to be more than once in both movies and books), he simply wasn't fated to be slain by one.
I dunno, in the movies Gandalf uses like four or five spells. Light, Shield, Tongues, and Invisibility Purge (if that's what the spell in Desolation of Smaug was supposed to be). Maybe thinking he's 7th level is a tad high. Might JUST be there if you think the Balrog fight used Emergency Force Shield instead of Shield.
I see it as Circle of Protection vs Evil keeping an outsider at bay
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I used to get around this in BECMI D&D by having the focus of high-level Fighters being on running their dominion and having armies to lead. The high-level mage may have an apprentice or two but otherwise all of their power was within them - the Cleric may have an arm of the church but would be constrained by religious limitations, and the Thief might have power within the Guild but would still have to face the fact most of their followers were... well... Thieves, and therefore mostly in it for themselves.
I miss that rule so much :(
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Lotr Fellowship
the Hobbits go from 1st level Experts to 4th level PC classed characters with an Expert level tacked on, mixing aspects of fighter and rogue to varying levels
Legolas is a 7th level elven ranger with a few alternate racials and really high stats
Gimli is a 7th level dwarven ranger with a few alternate racials and really high stats
Aragorn is a 7th level half elf ranger with really high stats
Boromir is a Human with 2 levels of fighter and 3 of ranger
Gandalf is a CR 17 Planetar with 7 Wizard levels whom rarely uses both his planetar powers or his wizard spells. he mostly does Deus Ex Machina and the only times he uses his powers, is when no allies are watching, and off screen. gandalf is one of multiple but few planetars with wizard levels and one of few planetars in the world. he soloed a balor offscreen by both using the terrain to his advantage with his wizard intellect, and by going nova or alpha strike.
I can play a game that is exactly like the book/movies, without any one being higher than level 5 and 20 point buy, except for the NPC wizard. As tge Alexanrian article says, people tend to give their heroes high level/stats just because they are cool characters, not because it fits. Aragorn for example, doesn't have 18 str. That's the strongest humans have. Aragorn isn't a body builder. He's more like 16/14/14/10/12/12 or so. Same goes with Gimli. He isn't really an outstanding dwarf. He is not Balin or Durin or Thorin Oak shield.
Actually, thus is a novel about how *common people* stand against evil. They aren't Sigurd or Jason or Gilgamesh, blessed with huge phissical gifts.
I'm not sure he's necessarily talking about AMF; sounds more like one of my previous suggestions, actually. That players with a certain number of class levels in fighter (or similar) gets some defenses against magic: bonuses to saves and/or SR. Not that they have to be immune, mind you... just make spell focus and spell penetration mean something. If fighters had +10 to +15 saves vs. magic and 30+ SR* by level 20, while it might not solve all the fighter's problems, it would probably help shift things in the right direction. Not enough? You can make martials more impressive and more reliable without making them anime characters simply by giving them multiple d20 rolls (take the max) at higher levels. All of this can mechanically be explained as follows: in...I don't know about that. If martials could be able to do that, why would anyone play a caster? I look at it in the opposite direction. Martials should be so antimagic, they bust down Walls of Force no problem. Or at least get bonuses to save against magic effects because come on.
However, I think that your point helped me realize something. The casters in Pathfinder as is are intended to deal with the BBEG's magical defenses, dispelling and counter-spelling as often as possible, while the martials face them in the ring and rain down blows.
Martials tend to be more useless then casters when antimagic field shows up, since casters have animated/called minions that will usually be scarier then a magic item less fighter. Furthermore, its a great chance to fly away (since Ex flight is pretty limited) and hit the Fighter with conjuration spells at the fighter's now significantly reduced statistics.
The problem with casters being there to dispel magic defenses is that it basically amounts to "Magic must fight magic."which can be humorous its largely a reason for the real protagonists who have magic to fight the big bad evil guy while Section 13 (the fighters/rogues) stand around doing nothing.
Yeah, AMF is... not great.
I was thinking more like counter-spelling or dispelling in fights so the enemy mages can't lay a finger on your hurtbox. Otherwise, you could lay down covering fire to let your brawler take the stage. Seems to me like there are plenty of ways to have good synergy between martials and casters, not just that they're forced to 1v1 brawl all the time.
Plus, yeah, if barbarians get away with such broken magical defenses, why can't the fighter?
What about something like one combat trick at bab 1, 4 and every four thereafter? Full bab characters would get six, three quarter classes would get four and slow bab progression would be three.
You could have them do one specific "thing" and it would scale as you level, similar to a spell or something.
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Plus, yeah, if barbarians get away with such broken magical defenses, why can't the fighter?
Fighters can, if they are dwarves aparently.
So it's not a matter of it being overpowered (if it were, they wouldn't give it to dwarves). It's a matter of not giving too much shiny things to fighters, because, you know, they are fighters, and fighters have to be boringly mundane.
What about something like one combat trick at bab 1, 4 and every four thereafter? Full bab characters would get six, three quarter classes would get four and slow bab progression would be three.
You could have them do one specific "thing" and it would scale as you level, similar to a spell or something.
What about not giving the magus/synthesist/druids/clerics anything else?
Why does every other class have to access to martial's shiny toys? Why not giving combat tricks to classes that do not have spellcasting, and that's it?
Lotr Fellowship
the Hobbits go from 1st level Experts to 4th level PC classed characters with an Expert level tacked on, mixing aspects of fighter and rogue to varying levels
Frodo was a Artistocrat not an expert. He was a landowner.
Merry was a Bard at one point (though he only needs 1 bard level): remember his song inspires.
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Umm... the dragon was killed by a GMPC and a bizarre use of critical hit rules (probably that damn deck). CR 9 Mastodons are appropriate challenges for a party of 5th level adventurers. Finally, Wizard is a non-associated class for wraiths, so giving a Wraith 7 Wizard levels result in a CR 8.5 encounter, ie. perfectly appropriate for a party of 5th level PCs.(I treat the protagonists as 6th level personally, since they are epic as in E6, which is represented by being 6th level.)
I think that maybe Paizo will realize how useless martials are, accept that things like RWBY more accurately portray what people want from mid tiered martials. And then once we do that we can nerf some problem spells. Everyone wins! Especially martials.
Good luck handling the wraith with at least 7 wizard levels** spoiler omitted ** or the 6000 year old great red wyrm or the CR 9 mastadons (explicitly said to be larger than modern elephants)
Note that Create Wondrous Items is a feat that only requires 3rd caster level.
Also note that the mastodons where not fought in single combat, and neither did they run up to Smaug and smite it.
It's you that needs to recalibrate your expectations if balance is ever going to happen. There's no way you will ever see Paizo boost martials as much as the Alexandrian model expects.
No reason to disregard how the system works in some vain hope that just by being willfully ignorant paizo will change its design.
In Pathfinder. This discussion has largely ignored the fact that Pathfinder monsters are not always exact duplicates of Middle-Earth monsters that happen to share the same names. (Nathanael Love excepted, who seems to be the only other person to realize that Sauron's most trusted lieutenant that has DR 500/woman would probably translate so something more intimidating that a CR 5 wraith.)
I didn't read this the first time.
Well, the thing is: it translate ok. A cave troll like the one shown in Moria (a young one btw) is rougly challenge rating 5. A bunch of gondor soldiers could take it down with cassualties. That's why it is CR5. If it were a CR14 troll, it'll destroy entire batallions. A pair of them are a match against a dragon. Two cave trolls like one in the film have nothing to do against a dragon.
No matter how you paint them, the enemies in LOTR match exactly those described, becsuse they are exactly that kind of threats. The only reason to not have Shelob to be an ogre spider, is because you want Samwise to be high level, that's it. Other than that, it is a perfect match. Has the right size, right strength and right ability. It is a CR5 enemy, maybe 6 if you add the advanced template, but she is not a CR 14 leng spider.
Same with the wight, or the wraith. They don't show any ability that make you to think they are something better than a incorporeal spirit that drain level with his touch, really. Sure, they are widely feared. Which is normal, because every one else is below level 4 and very few people has magic weapons.
Take a look to the kind of monsters that are high CR in pathfinder. Pyrohydras, dragons, angels, huge elementals, devils... Do you really see the fellowship being a match for those challenge? They'll do against tgem just like they did vs the Balor. Run fools, run. They are a match, however, for CR 5. Trolls, Ogre spiders, wights, wraiths, dire wolves... those fit perfectly
I can play a game that is exactly like the book/movies, without any one being higher than level 5 and 20 point buy, except for the NPC wizard.
Good luck handling the wraith with at least 7 wizard levels** spoiler omitted ** or the 6000 year old great red wyrm or the CR 9 mastadons (explicitly said to be larger than modern elephants)
The Dragon is exactlu that, a red wyrm. Which can't be defeated by the party, period. There's no chance they beat smaug in a fight. It's solved by an NPC with a dragon slaying arrow. Oliphants can be elephants with the giant template. And Grond is a magical item itself.
It's you that needs to recalibrate your expectations if balance is ever going to happen. There's no way you will ever see Paizo boost martials as much as the Alexandrian model expects. Nerfing casters, though, is possible...
That's just like... your opinion, man.
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Never mind the Alexandrian or Tolkien; I'd like my high-level martial to do what the Irish hero Cú Chulainn can do in the Táin Bó Cúailnge (11th-12th c.). At 17, he singlehandedly fights the armies of three of the provinces of Ireland to a standstill. At night, he slings rocks across the countryside, that some whistling in like bombs to slay champions in a single hit. He can throw a spear with his foot so that it automatically kills anything it hits, tearing through its body so that his servant needs to fillet the corpse to get it out. He cuts the tops off of mountains with his sword. He is so fierce that an actual light shines from him and blinds his enemies. He fights a goddess and wins. When women look at him, they abandon their husbands. His reflexes are so awesome that, after he's dead, his corpse cuts the arm off of a guy who touches his body.
That's a high-level martial.
I used to get around this in BECMI D&D by having the focus of high-level Fighters being on running their dominion and having armies to lead. The high-level mage may have an apprentice or two but otherwise all of their power was within them - the Cleric may have an arm of the church but would be constrained by religious limitations, and the Thief might have power within the Guild but would still have to face the fact most of their followers were... well... Thieves, and therefore mostly in it for themselves.
Only the Fighter would have that power to stand as a peer against other rulers. Only the Fighter would have that power to influence entire nations. The Fighter would be the one that could commandeer a ship from their fleet if the characters needed one, would have the resources to set up a guarded base camp in a remote location, and so forth.
Sure, any character could technically run a dominion (and often did), but I always gave Fighters the equivalent of an unwritten Ruler feat that would mean they'd end up with more people flocking to them to live under their (hopefully benevolent, although not necessarily) rule and armies that would be inspired just by having them standing in the vanguard.
That's the type of power I'd like to see for core martials - power over others, rather than innate power. I've nothing against having additional options allowing people to tailor those characters in more fantastic ways, but I also believe there's always a place for a default "I'm just a guy who can fight really, really well - so well that people will fall in beside me without question" martial character. Equally, I've nothing against having new martial classes that use various other forms of power - I just wouldn't want to see the "normal guy" option disappear.
I want to rebutt this idea. While in some cases, this might be a cool concept, in many it's more restrictive, RP wise, than helpful. For most cases, I don't want to control armies. One of the big things I like in RPGs is having a small 4-5 person band take on an epic adventure on their own. It's a big reason I don't take Leadership, even were it not banned at every table. I want my fighter to be powerful by himself, not because he can control an army. And if I do want that power, then the rules should support that, but they already do with stuff like mass combat rules and kingdom building rules. But that is very campaign dependent. Think about most APs. Most APs wouldn't support that type of ability, and the big one that does is kingmaker, which already has kingdom building and mass combat rules.
From the other side of the table, as a DM, this would just be a nightmare. Along side having to worry about Plane Shift-level spells, I also have to worry about how the Fighter could use their Army. And if it's a campaign that wouldn't support even having a regiment at the fighter's command, let alone an army, then I've just blanked a big part of the fighters' class features. My ideas for design goals for martial fixes would be such that they're not so campaign dependant, and can be reasonably used in every campaign (or at least the vast majority; there always will be exceptions for certain non-standard games). I'd want to ensure that the changes weren't just combat, but were I to do something that relied on the ability to gather an army, I'd make it much more like: "A fighter gains a bonus equal to half his fighter levels on diplomacy checks to gather together people to fight for him" or something like that.
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Never mind the Alexandrian or Tolkien; I'd like my high-level martial to do what the Irish hero Cú Chulainn can do in the Táin Bó Cúailnge (11th-12th c.). At 17, he singlehandedly fights the armies of three of the provinces of Ireland to a standstill. At night, he slings rocks across the countryside, that some whistling in like bombs to slay champions in a single hit. He can throw a spear with his foot so that it automatically kills anything it hits, tearing through its body so that his servant needs to fillet the corpse to get it out. He cuts the tops off of mountains with his sword. He is so fierce that an actual light shines from him and blinds his enemies. He fights a goddess and wins. When women look at him, they abandon their husbands. His reflexes are so awesome that, after he's dead, his corpse cuts the arm off of a guy who touches his body.
That's a high-level martial.
I suppose since you're running a custom system and therefore homebrewing all your content anyways you can have that.
People using a published system in order to not have to write all of their own content can't and trends say they never will.
And, frankly, Cu Chulainn is not a martial character. He's a god hastily disguised so the Catholics wouldn't suppress his stories. I wouldn't let a wizard or cleric get away with most of those. Any except the aura of blinding light, really, and that with a short duration. Why would a fighter or barbarian not restricted by spell slot limits get them? Goddesses shouldn't even have stat blocks that make victory over them theoretically conceivable.
If Cu Chulainn is balanced in Kirthfinder I worry to see how you've buffed wizards.
I'm guessing wizards are buffed by being able to casually twist reality to their whim, like they've already been able to do since 2000.
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A high level wizard is most assuredly still very capable of making Cu Chulainn look a a chump I promise. And he most certainly is a martial character albeit a high level one. Honestly... Goddesses and Gods should probably be statted up as 20th level characters, since Wizards can do a good job mimicking if not outright out doing most real world deities at that level. I mean I can easily replicate Zeus with a 13th level Druid and even that is probably giving him to much credit. The problem is that Fighter are still playing Mr. 5-6th level Fighter aka Gimli/Aragorn, while the Casters have been playing Zeus and are eyeing up seeing if they can make all religions look weak.
What about something like one combat trick at bab 1, 4 and every four thereafter? Full bab characters would get six, three quarter classes would get four and slow bab progression would be three.
You could have them do one specific "thing" and it would scale as you level, similar to a spell or something.
What about not giving the magus/synthesist/druids/clerics anything else?
Why does every other class have to access to martial's shiny toys? Why not giving combat tricks to classes that do not have spellcasting, and that's it?
Honestly? Because they are martials to an extent, and if they are martials they should benefit from a system that functions off of base attack. Not to mention the fact that combat tricks would likely scale in effect based on base attack bonus, meaning the 4 combat tricks a 3/4 bab class would get are only going to improve at +6 bab and +11 bab.
A fighter or a barbarian would have more combat tricks at a faster rate, and the specific effects of those tricks would improve at +6,+11,+16, and +20 bab. Each trick would be batter on a full bab class and they would 33% more than 3/4 bab classes.
Casters would get 3 combat tricks and they would improve at +6 bab. That is definitely a boon that they didn't have before, but it is a consequence of basing a mechanic off the Base attack bonus.
Also, I think I just ripped this out of Kirth's playbook for feats and called it something else because feats in Pathfinder have been weakened as part of the design concept. Instead of replacing them, which would require a rewrite, I suggest the combat trick as an alternative. Feats would then function as they do currently, which is to say, they do very little and that seems to be the design paradigm.
I like this idea largely because combat tricks could be used to achieve actual character concepts in one shot instead of piecemeal. I could imagine combat tricks that define how you want your character to act in combat and have it work straight away, allowing character concepts to spring up fully realized(or at least adequately realized).
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Honestly? Because they are martials to an extent, and if they are martials they should benefit from a system that functions off of base attack. Not to mention the fact that combat tricks would likely scale in effect based on base attack bonus, meaning the 4 combat tricks a 3/4 bab class would get are only going to improve at +6 bab and +11 bab.What about something like one combat trick at bab 1, 4 and every four thereafter? Full bab characters would get six, three quarter classes would get four and slow bab progression would be three.
You could have them do one specific "thing" and it would scale as you level, similar to a spell or something.
What about not giving the magus/synthesist/druids/clerics anything else?
Why does every other class have to access to martial's shiny toys? Why not giving combat tricks to classes that do not have spellcasting, and that's it?
And this is how Tweet & Monte Cook botched the Martial classes, giving Feats to everybody. :(.
Martial classes should have things than spellcasters don't. Just like spellcasters have things that martials don't (spells). It's hard enough to achieve balance without homogeneity: if a group takes A, and the other group takes B, as A =/=B, is very probable that A>B or A<B in some fashion. However, if one group takes A, and the other group takes A+B, it's impossible to get any resemblance of equity.
Martials and casters don't need to share the same mechanic, that's where 4th edition failed. They can have different mechanics. However... each of them need to have unique mechanics. Keep something for martials that is martial only.
Just imagine how different the game could be if only martials could, say, use power attack. Suddenly, druids in bear form rely more in spells to remain competitive in damage. That alone would make fighters close the gap a bit. Imagine if only martials could have access to improved trip, or whirlwind, or spring attack (and make those less taxed). There you go. A magus can mirror image and teleport, and a druid can shapshift and heal, but the fighter can move without provoking, attack everybody in 5' and do extra damage trading with to-hit bonus. Is the pure martial class still below par compared to druid and magus? Probably, because of spell versatility. But... at *least* they have something that is only theirs.
Never mind the Alexandrian or Tolkien; I'd like my high-level martial to do what the Irish hero Cú Chulainn can do in the Táin Bó Cúailnge (11th-12th c.). At 17, he singlehandedly fights the armies of three of the provinces of Ireland to a standstill. At night, he slings rocks across the countryside, that some whistling in like bombs to slay champions in a single hit. He can throw a spear with his foot so that it automatically kills anything it hits, tearing through its body so that his servant needs to fillet the corpse to get it out. He cuts the tops off of mountains with his sword. He is so fierce that an actual light shines from him and blinds his enemies. He fights a goddess and wins. When women look at him, they abandon their husbands. His reflexes are so awesome that, after he's dead, his corpse cuts the arm off of a guy who touches his body.
That's a high-level martial.
Do keep in mind that Cú Chulainn was a demigod like Hercules was.
For the most part, the martials played in D&D and Pathfinder are mortals.
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Demigods in most ancient cultures were essentially high level characters.
The idea that demigods need to be epic level is part of the problem. We need to divorce the idea of what martial can do from reality, in the same way that magic-users already are, and the way that ancient heroes were.
Any character of 15+ level is already world-changing in scope of power. To normal people, they are demigods. They are essentially Superman-scale superheroes within their worlds. Based on the stories of Hercules there's no reason to think that he couldn't be modeled as a 15th level character with a really high strength.
Never mind the Alexandrian or Tolkien; I'd like my high-level martial to do what the Irish hero Cú Chulainn can do in the Táin Bó Cúailnge (11th-12th c.). At 17, he singlehandedly fights the armies of three of the provinces of Ireland to a standstill. At night, he slings rocks across the countryside, that some whistling in like bombs to slay champions in a single hit. He can throw a spear with his foot so that it automatically kills anything it hits, tearing through its body so that his servant needs to fillet the corpse to get it out. He cuts the tops off of mountains with his sword. He is so fierce that an actual light shines from him and blinds his enemies. He fights a goddess and wins. When women look at him, they abandon their husbands. His reflexes are so awesome that, after he's dead, his corpse cuts the arm off of a guy who touches his body.
That's a high-level martial.
Do keep in mind that Cú Chulainn was a demigod like Hercules was.
For the most part, the martials played in D&D and Pathfinder are mortals.
Beowulf wasn't a demigod, nor was Achilles.
Cu Chulain and Hercules simply took the Religious Trait "divine birth", which makes them very strong. Others like Sigurd or Achilles took the magic trait "bathed in a mystic liquid that gives you huge natural armor", while Jason and Beowulf took the combat trait "frankly awesome in combat". That's not really important, though. It's just background, like Aragorn being descendant of ancient Dúnedain kings and having a heirloom broken sword waiting for him. Just like a player can, right now, take "magical lineage" and be awesome at magic, other player could take "martial lineage" and be awesome at fighting. Just like a player can decide he's descendant of dragons (which gives him access to the proper prestige class) some other could decide he's descendant of divine beings, with access to other different prestige class (or just descendant of dragons too, but access to a prestige class that is martial in nature). Arcane characters have access to very powerful backgrounds, like bloodlines, oracle revelations, and such. There's no reason why martial characters *have* to be the son of a carpenter and a washerwoman, born in a farm, with cool-factor 0
For the most part, the martials played in D&D and Pathfinder are mortals.
They're most assuredly mortals... until 5th level or so. Then they start to gradually leave that behind. By the mid-teens, D&D/PF characters ARE demigods, regardless of how you fluff their non-divine births. Accepting and embracing that is what this is all about.
Alternatively, if we want everyone to stay mortal through 20th level, the system still needs to be adjusted. Most spells over 4th or 5th level will have to go away. Hit points enabling you to fall from an airplane in flight and land on your feet without losing a beat will have to be scaled back. Etc.
Frankly, it seems to me like a lot more work to stretch non-demigod play out for 20 levels, than it is to just fully bring the martials into the "demigods club" their caster friends already get to join.
As for what the fighter needs... activated abilities that provide ways to impact the battlefield in meaningful ways. The "Arcana Pool" mechanic of the Magus has appeared on other characters (Monk's Ki Pool, etc) and that's a good place to start. To start, not end. 9 levels of "casting" is where it should end. And, yes, a 9th level spell should fell a Terrasque just like a Wizard's 9th level spell wishes it dead.
Technically the magus took the monk's Ki pool (though it's not like he was doing anything useful with it until the qinggong monk came out), but I agree. Some people seem to have problems giving martials a '[blank] point' system, for some reason, but there are ways around this. My preferred way to do it would be a dice pool system, and have, each time you attempt a maneuver, you roll a die against a target number (which may or may not vary depending on the maneuver itself). If you fail the roll, you still attempt the maneuver, but lose the die (or it drops to the next lower die size; this would require playtesting to get it right).
This way, it's not a set number of uses/day, which is an issue a lot of people have with giving martials a '[blank] pool' and there's some risk involved, in terms of losing a die, or having it drop to the next lower size, which would be a greater loss than just a ki point, proportionally. But more importantly, it allows something beyond the full-attack paradigm, without making that thing the thing done every round, because it's limited. And there's also the potential for a risk-reward type of thought, since a maneuver with only a 2+ target number, if your die pool has d6s, will lose the die only 1/6 times, but will be weaker than a maneuver with 4+ target number, which will lose the die half of the time.
It has some problems of its own, specifically that not everyone wants more complex martials, but I'd see this as a Tome of Battle type of add-on.
For the most part, the martials played in D&D and Pathfinder are mortals.They're most assuredly mortals... until 5th level or so. Then they start to gradually leave that behind. By the mid-teens, D&D/PF characters ARE demigods, regardless of how you fluff their non-divine births. Accepting and embracing that is what this is all about.
Alternatively, if we want everyone to stay mortal through 20th level, the system still needs to be adjusted. Most spells over 4th or 5th level will have to go away. Hit points enabling you to fall from an airplane in flight and land on your feet without losing a beat will have to be scaled back. Etc.
Frankly, it seems to me like a lot more work to stretch non-demigod play out for 20 levels, than it is to just fully bring the martials into the "demigods club" their caster friends already get to join.
Hit points isn't a problem, if you go ahead and explain that hit points from class levels are inherently wondrous in and of themselves.
The ability to fall from a plane, get up and walk away is 'magical' in every sense of the word. People gaining hit points are gaining inherent magical strength that enables them to avoid the greatest portion of actual physical injury.
The difference between PC's and most monsters is that for many monsters, hit points are 'substance'. They really are just that bloody tough and hard to kill. You have to do incredible amounts of physical harm to them before you break them.
For PC's, fighting a PC is an exercise in frustration for most monsters. That 50 point 'hit' that would claw a huge gouge in a rival dragon takes a few hairs off the beard of the dwarf as he steps aside. The mashing club that can crack a boulder just drives them down to a knee for a second. It's like, WTF is up with these guys? Why can't I land a clean hit and just squish them?
It's the realization that such things ARE magical that makes the difference between PC's and us. Really, the idea that hit points are NOT MAGICAL is funny in and of itself. It's one reason why you should really play with a Wounds/Vitality system...once it's plain that Wounds is you, and Vitality is all that magical protection against harm you have from having a soul that is that damn awesome, suspension of disbelief becomes a lot easier.
==Aelryinth
For PC's, fighting a PC is an exercise in frustration for most monsters. That 50 point 'hit' that would claw a huge gouge in a rival dragon takes a few hairs off the beard of the dwarf as he steps aside. The mashing club that can crack a boulder just drives them down to a knee for a second. It's like, WTF is up with these guys? Why can't I land a clean hit and just squish them?
Eeh... Kinda... Not really...
A character with enough HP can stand still in a pool lava inside a volcano in a dead magic plane and do nothing... And not only he will survive, but also walk away without any problems. There is no luck, magic or skill there... Just toughness. Similarly, a giant snake's bite attack still forces the character to make a Fort save to resist injury poison, no matter it deals 3 points of damage or 3000.
Personally, I prefer to think of HP it as a mix of luck, skill, fatigue, physical toughness, etc. It's more cinematic and, IMO, more interesting. But from a rules perspective, hp is treated as if it were plain physical toughness.
Martials already fight well enough. Almost everything that you ascribed to Cú Chulainn is a feat of amazing martial prowess.
I agree, without reservation, with 95% of your point, and the remaining 5% is a result of lack of context in my post.
Cú Chulainn's superhuman martial prowess doesn't just let him win fights.
It lets him drive the story.
Once he gets involved, nearly everything that happens in the epic is a result of his actions, abilities, and decisions. The whole plotline would be radically different if he'd been weaker, or hadn't shown up. Just like, in D&D, a cleric can plane shift the whole party out of the dungeon, heal them all, and then learn the bad guy's plans through divination -- instead of slogging through the rest of the dungeon. As written, spells have the capacity to derail the whole story and force it to re-commence on the caster's terms. Martial abilities don't -- but I believe that, at high levels, they should.
When Cú Chulainn wipes out an army, it forces his enemies to abandon their goals, recruit allies, and adopt all kinds of outlandish strategies to try and deal with him. One can claim that fighting well in D&D does the same thing -- but in practice it doesn't, because there aren't any guidelines at all for that sort of things, and it's all left to hand waving. Spells have actual rules dictating how they change the narrative. Martial abilities need the same.
And they'll never get them if the limit to martial abilities is "hits one guy with a stick."
Personally, I prefer to think of HP it as a mix of luck, skill, fatigue, physical toughness, etc. It's more cinematic and, IMO, more interesting. But from a rules perspective, hp is treated as if it were plain physical toughness.I prefer to refer to the idea of proportional damage implied in the 3.0 PHB. IMO, environmental damage is the only thing that really isn't covered well.
We already know (as you agree with) that every single hit does real damage. It has to, or fort saves vs poison don't work anymore (what, I gotta make a poison save but my Magical Awesomeness kept me from taking damage? wtf?) We also have a couple lines of text that say that 4 hp of damage to a level 1 fighter is about as damaging as 40 hp of damage to a level 10 fighter.
In The Ghost King by Salvatore...he has a passage of a high level monk, Danica, falling off a cliff. She does her monk thing of slowing her fall and then backflipping into a large pine tree off the wall, using it to slow her fall the whole way then tries to roll with it and os left near death, broken but still alive. I guess that damage could be somewhat explained like sword damage can be (graze, or small cutd wearing them down). Dunno about the lava though.
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I wrote before about what the designers of World of Warcraft consider "balance" to mean.
When a player logs in to one of his or her characters, the player should think, "This character is so cool! I can't believe the game designers are letting me get away with this."
Every character, at every level, should somehow shine: be unique, be especially useful, be the best at something, be oddly powerful, have a special kind of fun.
A character is balanced when thinking about it creates a big expectation of fun.
Lots of people demand a different definition of "balance" that would somehow compare characters or put them in competition. This is nonsense. People play WoW to have fun. That's the bottom line, so fun is the appropriate thing to balance, and the only thing that can be meaningfully balanced.
In other words, the game is the most fun when the PCs should function as a team while also making each other a bit jealous about what each can do.
I would reword Kolokotroni's original post as What could martial characters do that would make other PCs think "Ooo! I wish I could do that. Maybe my next new character..."