Alchemist Wands

[Mike Bohlmann]

So a player is supposed to figure out that the Craft Wondrous Item feat and having Alchemical Allocation in order to create a Volatile Vaporizer (Ultimate Equipment) is not legal? The obvious interpretation would be to have the Craft Wondrous Item feat (which is apparently not allowed for Alchemists since they are not spellcasters) and the spell Alchemical Allocation prepared via extract (which is also not possible because extracts don't count as spells in this case so just use the Crafting rules for when you don't have the prerequisite).

It's an inconsistency that makes the 3.5 rules for Grapple seem trivial. Where's Bruno?

[N N 959]

Tony Lindman wrote:

Alexander_Damocles wrote:

Thus, while an alchemist does not cast spells, every extract he makes is based off of a spell. Thus, all alchemist only spells really are spells.

No, they are not. It really seems like some people have decided what they want, and language be damned.

Being based on a spell does not make an extract into a spell. Extracts are not spells, alchemists are not spellcasters. It really is that simple.

Actually the words are unambiguous. The extract is made from a "spell." The extract is not a spell, whatever the extract is duplicating, is by definition, a spell.

To use the analogy above,

Fruit juice is not a fruit. But the juice comes from a real fruit, by definition. Ergo, if there is bobo juice, then there is a bobo fruit.

That's not a statement on whether or not someone can access that spell to make a wand, but it's a formal reading of what is unambiguously stated in the rules.

[Diego Rossi]

Mike Bohlmann wrote:

So a player is supposed to figure out that the Craft Wondrous Item feat and having Alchemical Allocation in order to create a Volatile Vaporizer (Ultimate Equipment) is not legal? The obvious interpretation would be to have the Craft Wondrous Item feat (which is apparently not allowed for Alchemists since they are not spellcasters) and the spell Alchemical Allocation prepared via extract (which is also not possible because extracts don't count as spells in this case so just use the Crafting rules for when you don't have the prerequisite).

It's an inconsistency that makes the 3.5 rules for Grapple seem trivial. Where's Bruno?

Or the crafter isn't an alchemist and take the +5 to DC for each requirement he doesn't have.

Or he has a SLA with a CL of 3+ to qualify as a caster;
Or he is multiclassed with 3 levels as wizard, witch, etc.

Having a prerequisite that can't be met simply mean an increase of 5 of the DC for crafting an item. Nothing major.

[Tempest_Knight]

Tony, I hate to say this, but you are the one ignoring the language.

The Alchemist does not cast spells, the Alchemist does not know spells, but ALL formulae are based from SPELLS. The rules say so.

Try rereading the Alchemist Formulae section.

---

At this point I do think that we all agree that Alchemists neither Cast nor Know spells, requirements for making wands. So the OP has been answered.

What we keep hitting now is the question of are they spells. The answer is Yes AND No.

Yes they are Spells, but No they aren't spells by the time the Alchemist Learns and Uses them.

[Castilliano]

"Alchemist only" extracts/spells are spells like any other.
Well, except no classes use them as spells for crafting requirements.

[Veragond]

Tempest_Knight wrote:

Tony, I hate to say this, but you are the one ignoring the language.

The Alchemist does not cast spells, the Alchemist does not know spells, but ALL formulae are based from SPELLS. The rules say so.

Try rereading the Alchemist Formulae section.

---

At this point I do think that we all agree that Alchemists neither Cast nor Know spells, requirements for making wands. So the OP has been answered.

What we keep hitting now is the question of are they spells. The answer is Yes AND No.

Yes they are Spells, but No they aren't spells by the time the Alchemist Learns and Uses them.

It seems like there are 2 different arguments going on here:

1) Are alchemists spellcasters?
2) Can alchemists create wands?

I think the realy question should be, "Could an alchemist assist another spellcaster in creating a wand of an alchemist-only spell?"

From the Magic Item Creation section of the CRB:

Quote:

Note that all items have prerequisites in their descriptions. These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created. Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be known by the item's creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed).

(emphasis mine)

So it certainly seems, according to RAW, that an alchemist could supply the alchemist-only spell (in the form of an extract perhaps) to another caster who could use the craft wand feat to create a wand of an alchemist-only spell.

[nosig]

Veragond wrote:

Tempest_Knight wrote:

Tony, I hate to say this, but you are the one ignoring the language.

The Alchemist does not cast spells, the Alchemist does not know spells, but ALL formulae are based from SPELLS. The rules say so.

Try rereading the Alchemist Formulae section.

---

At this point I do think that we all agree that Alchemists neither Cast nor Know spells, requirements for making wands. So the OP has been answered.

What we keep hitting now is the question of are they spells. The answer is Yes AND No.

Yes they are Spells, but No they aren't spells by the time the Alchemist Learns and Uses them.

It seems like there are 2 different arguments going on here:

1) Are alchemists spellcasters?
2) Can alchemists create wands?

I think the realy question should be, "Could an alchemist assist another spellcaster in creating a wand of an alchemist-only spell?"

From the Magic Item Creation section of the CRB:

Quote:

Note that all items have prerequisites in their descriptions. These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created. Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be known by the item's creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed).

(emphasis mine)

So it certainly seems, according to RAW, that an alchemist could supply the alchemist-only spell (in the form of an extract perhaps) to another caster who could use the craft wand feat to create a wand of an alchemist-only spell.

with #1 above, you pointed out that there is question 1) Are alchemists spellcasters?, yet you go on to state that... "(although access through another ...spellcaster is allowed). ". So it would seem that you are using an answer to #1 to answer #2. You are answering #2 by saying something like "seeing as alchemists are spellcasters, they can provide access to another spellcaster to create wands"... this is a bit of circular logic right?

But if alchemists AREN"T spellcasters, then they could not be used to provide access to a spellcaster (notice I did not say "another spellcaster").

so it seems more like a single question... your #1.

1) Are alchemists spellcasters?

... and, as Jiggy might say, what do the rules say on this?

[Dragnmoon]

nosig wrote:

1) Are alchemists spellcasters?

... and, as Jiggy might say, what do the rules say on this?

as has already pointed out in this thread...

FAQ already answers this

FAQ wrote:

Alchemist: Is an alchemist a spellcaster for the purpose of crafting magic items other than potions?

As written, no, alchemists are not spellcasters, and therefore can't select feats such as Craft Wondrous Item.

The design team is aware that this creates some thematic problems with the idea of an alchemist creating golems and so on, and plan to examine this in the future.

[nosig]

Dragnmoon wrote:

nosig wrote:

1) Are alchemists spellcasters?

... and, as Jiggy might say, what do the rules say on this?

as has already pointed out in this thread...

FAQ already answers this

FAQ wrote:

Alchemist: Is an alchemist a spellcaster for the purpose of crafting magic items other than potions?

As written, no, alchemists are not spellcasters, and therefore can't select feats such as Craft Wondrous Item.

The design team is aware that this creates some thematic problems with the idea of an alchemist creating golems and so on, and plan to examine this in the future.

sorry, it was a rhetorical question. As in, as has already been pointed out, alchemists are not spellcasters. So listing it again to support point #2 would be... never mind. Sorry to be repeatedly striking the expired equine.

:-)

[Tempest_Knight]

Veragond...

We have an FAQ stating that they are not Spellcasters.

As Nosig points out, that kinda, completely, invalidates that "another" spellcaster can help section.

-

-Slight Tangent-

The only issue I take with the FAQ entry it that Alchemists DO have a Caster Level.

The rules clearly state that.

The Item Creation feats require CL, not Spellcaster.

RAW, an Alchemist could take Item Creation feats, but not being a Spellcaster, they would be of limited use.

RAW, an Alchemist could take Craft Wand after getting to CL 5, but would not be able to make wands, as he is not a Spellcaster (does not 'know' spells, does not cast spells).

-End Tangent-

-

So the OP is closed, no wands of Alchemist Spells... kind of sucks... there are a couple I would have liked... but, alas, not to be...

The continuation is just a clarification that Alchemist(class) Spells are indeed spells.

But, by the time the Alchemist(character) gets ahold of them and starts using them, they are Formulae and Extracts, and no longer Spells.

Or simply, the Class has Spells, the Character has Formulae and Extracts instead.

[Pirate Rob]

As a reminder, the original question is are wands of alchemist only "spells" available for purchase in PFS.

Sometimes in PFS we don't care how things come about (need a CL 36 make whole?, no problem)

So if anybody's who's curious about this hasn't yet hit the FAQ button on the original post I would appreciate if they did so.