Endis
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Hello everyone,
I am currently leveling up a fighter (dragoon archetype) 1 / summoner 3 character who uses his eidolon as a mount. This is a PFS character so keep in mind that I can't just ask my GM if he will let that or that fly, my character has to be built fully legally.
I am planning to take Improved Overun/Charge through on my eidolon as well as ride by attack on the summoner. I have many questions as to how these feats function by themselves, and synergize with each other
1) Does ride by attack let you pass through the square of the enemy you attack, or can you just go through a case adjacent to him?
2) If I try to charge through an opponent, but my eidolon fails his cmb check, will he and the summoner be able to take their attacks at the opponent (in that case the eidolon would use pounce if he could) ?
3) Let's say there's an an ally in front of a fighter opponent, with a caster type enemy 20ft behind. Could I use charge through (on my eidolon) to bypass my ally, then ride by attack the fighter and have my eidolon pounce on the caster? It seems legal to me but maybe a bit convoluted.
I also have some more general mounted combat rule questions :
4) If I use an immediate action at the end of my turn to "Cover" using the ride skill, would I be able to fast dismount on the next turn so as not to waste my move action in order to recover?
5) If I try to fast mount/dismount, would I provoke and attack of opportunity if I fail my ride check and have to use a move action?
Thanks in advance for your help
| Blakmane |
1) No. As written it doesn't work at all (you have to move in a direct line towards them but not through them, which means you always get stuck) but any decent GM will let you use it to 'joust' past them, even in PFS.
2) Eidolon no, summoner yes. Think of the overrun as replacing the charge attack part of the charge: it failing is like your mount missing his attack. Even if the overrun succeeds he doesn't get to pounce attack afterwards.
3) No. From the PRD: "If any line from your starting space to the ending space passes through a square that blocks movement, slows movement, or contains a creature (even an ally), you can't charge."
Additionally you also can't use Charge Through to overrun your target , only someone in-between (and yes the above text makes this feat also not work RAW. Again, your DM will almost certainly let you use it as intended).
4) I'm not sure on this one, but reading the rules I don't see why not. You'd have to make two checks (fast dismount, fast mount) at DC 20. Because these are free actions even a PFS DM has the power to stop you from doing it if they want to though. Expect arguments.
5) No. Read the attacks of opportunity section: mounting a steed never provokes an AOO.
The overrun rules as written are an absolute mess unfortunately. You'll have to make do with what you can manage. I just hope you don't run into a real stickler of a PFS GM who reads ride-by-attack and charge through purely as written.
Endis
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Hi there !
I agree with your answer to question 1, but I think that indeed a decent GM will let that fly.
As to question 2), Charge Through says that you can overrun as a free action then it says "If the overrun is unsuccessful, the charge ends in the space directly in front of that creature.", so for me it would allow the eidolon to make his pounce attacks as well, or am I reading it wrong?
3) Hum, if I declare the charge on the caster, then i could make the overrun on my ally on a free action, and then if the GM would allow me to use ride by attack as it was intended, then I could go through both creatures right?
Thanks for your answers, I'm just trying to have a clear picture in my mind so as not to bore my group with useless ruling discussions
| thebigragu |
3) yes. Charge Through and Ride-by-Attack are intended to enable you to keep moving. The idea that you would be prevented because someone's in your way is exactly what these feats were made to overrule. Overrunning an ally is odd. As an ally, I think he should be allowed to avoid you as per regular Overrun rules (Improved Overrun technically disallows him from avoiding it). If not, there's a chance you would knock your ally prone, which may irritate him or her. The gray area on Ride-by-Attack is whether you should be able to keep moving if the enemy is right in front of you rather than adjacent. RBA needs a good "Normal" section in its description. Always helpful.
Greyer still, RBA says you charge as normal and then move again, continuing the line of the charge. Does this mean the mount is still charging after the rider's attack? Or did the charge end when the rider attacked, with remaining movement being simply movement that continues the line of the charge? I say the former, especially considering the investment, but there's a case to be made either way. Going further, the rider gets the +2 attack only at the end of the mount's charge by the letter of the rule. On that note, once again, I think the feats favor the player, and the +2 should still apply (i.e., "during the charge" rather than "at the end of") but there are arguments to be made ...
Ssalarn claims to have played mounted characters in PFS successfully. You might try pm'ing him to learn his experience on these specific issues, as it seems somewhat a rare choice without tons of support.
| Faskill |
Thank you, concerning the +2 to attack rolls and the -2 to AC, I would say that those bonuses and maluses stay for the whole round in which the summoner and his eidolon would charge, so that any attacks, including the ride by attack, would be made using this bonus.
I will PM Ssalarn to see if he can help me ;)
| Gwen Smith |
First, I would say that Ride-By-Attack would not let you pass through the square, because that is the definition of the Overrun combat maneuver for that.
Since Overrun is a combat maneuver, the general ruling in our area is that you can't use it on an ally in PFS because of the PVP rule. Also remember that with Improved Overrun "Targets of your overrun attempt may not chose to avoid you," which makes it even less likely you can overrun an ally in PFS.
Charge Through overrides the "can't charge an enemy if a creature is in the way" rule (that is specifically what the feat is for), but it only works if the creature in the way is an opponent. Unfortunately, the only way I've found to charge if there's an ally in the way is Dragon Style. There's no other magic item or feat that will let you do that.
Wheeling Charge lets you take a single turn up to 90 degrees during a charge, which under some circumstances will let you get the charge completed.
We have several mounted combat characters in the Western Washington, and they do pretty well. The big thing is to have a cheat sheet of the mounted combat rules on hand, and carry an extra one for your GM. If there are any specific questions, odd feats (like Wheeling Charge), or corner cases you're aware of, point these out to the GM before the game and get the ruling in advance, so you know what your options are from the start.
| Faskill |
The thing is though, I don't see why my ally wouldn't be allowed to avoid me, since I (my eidolon in that case)would be able to turn off the improved overrun feat so that he could avoid me.
You are not supposed to be restrained by the feats you take as I understand it, but you can simply use the "normal" version of the combat maneuver at will.
Michael Sayre
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So a few things-
1) Sean K. Reynolds talks about this here. May be helpful. Long story short, you can't go through their square but you can pass them on either side.
2) Overrun is weird. It says "As a standard action taken as part of a charge" which is kind of self-exclusionary. Most PFS GM's are going to interpret that as meaning that you can't mix other actions with Overrun, so if your mount fails his Overrun attempt, his actions are done for the round. Your rider can still make his attack though. Note that you can't mix Ride-By attack and Pounce on the same target; Pounce triggers at the end of the charge and Ride-by Attack only allows the rider to attack in the middle of the charge. You could, however, Ride-by Attack to hit one enemy with your lance, and then have your Eidolon Pounce a different enemy at the end of the movement.
3) You can't charge through an ally's space. HOWEVER, you could Overrun or Charge Through your own ally, he could choose to avoid you, and then you could nail the enemy fighter. You aren't getting to that spell-caster this round though.
4) Expect table variation. The most conservative ruling though, is going to bring up that fast mount/dismount requires you to have a move action available and cover says you have to spend to a move action to recover, so the two are not compatible. I'd assume that that is the ruling you're going to get and plan accordingly.
5)Mounting or dismounting a steed, even as a move action, never provokes an attack of opportunity, as noted in the table of actions in the Combat section of the CRB.
Endis
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Thanks a lot for your very clear answers.
I have a bit of a problem about question 2) though.
Normally overrun is "a standard action taken as part of the charge" which doesn't mean anything, but when the eidolon would be using Charge Through, the overrun attempt is a free action. In that case, would you still rule that he would be unable to attack?
One more thing though, would you rule that with improved overrun I could not choose to allow one ally to avoid my overrun attempt when using Charge Through?
Wouldn't I be able to toggle off the improved overrun if I were to choose to use the maneuver on an ally?
Michael Sayre
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So, feat "toggling" as it were is one of those contentious points that isn't clearly elaborated upon in the rules. Could I choose not to get +1 to my attacks with my chosen weapon if I've taken Weapon Focus? My general rule of thumb is, feats are intended to add options, not take them away, so I would say you could choose not to use Improved Overrun, but I've seen people rule the other way.
Good point on Charge Through though. You've probably got a really strong argument for your mount being able to complete his attack against the enemy he failed his Overrun attempt against. Be ready to have that one GM who says "Well, Charge through says 'If you successfully overrun that creature, you can complete the charge'. I would take that to mean that if you don't Overrun them, you don't get to complete the charge."
I only say that because it's happened, and at the time I didn't have a good response.
| Hayato Ken |
This topic is difficult because you want to mix actions of your character and her mount.
-You ride it, the beast goes on your turn.
-You charge it, both can attack.
-Charge by only the character can attack. The mount would need something like spring attack (which is not possible due to action economy). Guess it´s just not possible. Who knows, maybe there will be a nice book on such stuff in the future (there is on knights, but we are talking more exotic mounts here aren´t we?)
Overrun:
Beware that your mount needs Power Attack, Improved Overrun and charge through! With the greater overrun feat the eidolon might get an AoO, but besides the trample feat and/or evolution that´s it.
The evolution could already a bit problematic because of the action economy.
| Victor.FG |
I was under the impression there was a rule in Pathfinder called "Specific overrules General", or something worded like that.
It seems pretty clear to me that the Ride By feat is one of these specific feats that override the general rules of combat, like many feats and abilities do.
It seems to me that you indeed DO pass through the enemy's square after BOTH you and your mount get the charge attack, with no need for overrun or any other feat or ability. I don't understand why people would think this one feat is an exception to the 'specific vs general' rule. Yes it breaks the general rules, but so what? Many feats and abilities do. How it works is simple, It's in the text of the feat:
Benefit: When you are mounted and use the charge action, you may move and attack as if with a standard charge and then move again (continuing the straight line of the charge). Your total movement for the round can't exceed double your mounted speed. You and your mount do not provoke an attack of opportunity from the opponent that you attack.
*The line "attack as if with a standard charge" means the mount gets to attack, as in a standard charge
*The line "then move again (continuing the straight line of the charge)" means that you do indeed pass through your enemy's space, since a charge has to go directly towards the enemy.
To me, the fact that this feat allows you to do things that are not done in any other way is totally inconsequential. Specific overrules General.
Seems simple.