Endure Elements inconsistency?

[Jack Rift]

The range of the spell is -50 to 140. Which on the heat end is right before the lethal damage heat range, but -20 is where the lethal damage from cold starts. So the question is does Endure Elements protect you from the lethal damage is the extreme cold range (below -20)?

[Buri]

It protects you within the range of the spell. Outside of that range you are affected normally.

[Ipslore the Red]

Yes. How is that inconsistent? It's quite clearly -50 to 140. That's the same temperature range you find in nature, excluding volcanoes and the like. That's what endure elements is designed for.

[Jack Rift]

The full spell description says ignore the saves, the problem is the lethal damage is at no save, hence the issue.

[Kaisoku]

Quote:

A creature protected by endure elements suffers no harm from being in a hot or cold environment. It can exist comfortably in conditions between –50 and 140 degrees Fahrenheit without having to make Fortitude saves.

I'd say that "suffers no harm" and "exist comfortably" means you ignore it. Also, there are saves at extreme cold for additional non-lethal damage.

For what it's worth, it hasn't changed from 3.5e (possibly even 3.0e), and it's how I've run it for over a decade. *shrug*

[Blackstorm]

Jack Rift wrote:

The full spell description says ignore the saves, the problem is the lethal damage is at no save, hence the issue.

Actually, you're wrong:

Quote:

An unprotected character in cold weather (below 40° F) must make a Fortitude save each hour (DC 15, +1 per previous check) or take 1d6 points of nonlethal damage.

There are saves in cold environment. Maybe you're confused with other extreme conditions?

[Kaisoku]

He's talking about this line:

Quote:

Extreme cold (below –20° F) deals 1d6 points of lethal damage per minute (no save).

Though even Extreme cold has a save component:

Quote:

In addition, a character must make a Fortitude save (DC 15, +1 per previous check) or take 1d4 points of nonlethal damage.

[Blackstorm]

Kaisoku wrote:

He's talking about this line:

Quote:

Extreme cold (below –20° F) deals 1d6 points of lethal damage per minute (no save).

Though even Extreme cold has a save component:

Quote:

In addition, a character must make a Fortitude save (DC 15, +1 per previous check) or take 1d4 points of nonlethal damage.

Ok. Then the wording of endure elements is rather clear: if it call a save you don't need to do. I'd it doesn't require a save, you don't suffer any ill effect.

[Jack Rift]

A creature protected by endure elements suffers no harm from being in a hot or cold environment. It can exist comfortably in conditions between -50 and 140 degrees Fahrenheit (-45 and 60 degrees Celsius) without having to make Fortitude saves. The creature's equipment is likewise protected.

Endure elements doesn't provide any protection from fire or cold damage, nor does it protect against other environmental hazards such as smoke, lack of air, and so forth.

Text of Endure Elements. The only mechanic to it I can see is no save, doesn't stop cold damage, as second line says. At -20 and below cold environments deals d6 cold then the saves (which the spell stops). So no it really is not clear. We can use hot environments as an example because the lethal damage starts at above 140.

[MrCab]

Actually, the answer here is obvious. The extreme heat and cold sections say nothing about it being "fire" or "cold" damage. It just says damage. Endure elements says "It can exist comfortably in conditions between –50 and 140 degrees Fahrenheit without having to make Fortitude saves," so it can exist comfortably between -50 and 140 degrees Fahrenheit.

[Lifat]

At first I was actually on the side of "This is obvious and not inconsistent"... But I think Jack Rift has a point in it being slightly confusing in its wording at least. I think it merrits a FAQ at least for RAW purposes.

Personally speaking I would let anyone with endure elements on, be completely safe within the mentioned temperature brackets.

[Jack Rift]

Thanks everyone. @ Lifat hence my and girlfriend (who is the gm in the game) was confused. The easiest fix either change the environmental range or change the -50 down to -20, to be consistent with the heat end.
@McCab Extreme heat (above 140) does call out fire damage (just read it) but cold does not call out type, just lethal (gf and I amde the mistake of think it was cold since heat was). By RAW, the spell says you ignore the saves (as in protect person passes), not damage done without saves, but by RAI I would wave the d6 as well.

[Volaran]

I'd have to agree with other posters here. The 1d6 lethal damage suffered with no save for being in -20 or below temps is covered in the first sentence of Endure Elements

Endure Elements wrote:

"A creature protected by endure elements suffers no harm from being in a hot or cold environment."

The damage from the environment is described as lethal, but not cold-energy damage, so I would say it falls clearly under that sentence as far as the spell goes. The words 'no harm' are pretty clear.

The fortitude saves for cold environments are not just for non-lethal damage, but for frostbite (which is treated as fatigue), so I can see it warranting a special call-out. No FAQ needed.

Now that said, when I'm looking at various cold weather-gear, I'm only seeing it as giving bonuses to the fortitude save for non-lethal damage, and nothing about the lethal damage, which does seem like an oversight.

Back in 3.5 (and I will admit I still use these rules), I was fold of how the environment books, and I think even the DMG treated hot and cold. In addition to more temperature bands, with penalties not being quite that severe, warm clothing had the effect of you treating the temperature as warmer than it is.

I often frown on using real-world environment explanations, but I live in a city where the temperature regularly drops below -20 F in the winter. I have trouble picturing a northern village where a commoner ducks out to grab firewood and dies from exposure in 2 minutes (2d6 lethal damage) even if they've bundled up ;)

[Jack Rift]

My issue is with both a combination in the range (heat being out of the lethal, cold not) and that heat does call out fire, while cold is untyped. Granted, I also agree not using real world explanations as well. Again thanks everyone.