Let's not talk about classes yet. What do you want your character to be able to do? What appeals to you about a dex focused monk? What would you like to focus on?
I've built (but not played) a few. No clue how it would survive an adventure path. It's major problem is combat (as in attack/damage). Seriously. It was a human wanderer, so at least it has a few support abilities, but... I have no clue if it would be effective.
Still, if you post your own build, I might find some weird-ass item that can help.
this guy? Note I'm multiclassing into bad touch cleric. Not looking to win any DPR Olympics. He has been plenty of fun to play.
there's a few little tricks (and a couple big ones) to make dex monks work. unfortunately, it is more feat intensive than Str based combat.
1) weapon finesse. absolute necessity. take at 1st level.
2) amulet of mighty fists: agile. dex to damage- probably single biggest damage boost (at least in low to mid levels), take as soon as you can afford the 4k
3) piranha strike. power attack for light weapons, no minimum Str.
4) arcane strike. monks don't usually have much to do with swift actions, pick a race/trait/feat for a SLA that scales with level (plumekith aasimar would be great for that, or the Alluring or Wendifa Apprentice traits) to not only qualify but have the bonus damage scale
5) quain martial artist trait (heavy hitter on pfsrd). just an extra +1 damage on every hit
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That is, DEX > STR monks that can keep up throughout a Pathfinder Adventure Path?
Preferably without dumpstatting INT or CHA?
Just trying to find some ways to make mine finally work.
Yes, that's actually what I play. Unfortunately, I do have CHA as my dump stat, though it's simple enough for you not to do the same.
The only problem, is that you are waiting until someone can make you an AoMF at level 5, or you can somehow buy one before then. Otherwise, your damage will be pitiful. That's one thing I struggled through, but am now very happy I waited. Defenses are absolutely superb on this character. I rarely get hit, ever. As long as I'm rolling an 8 or higher I'm usually good to go.
Info Below:
Vanaras Qinggong Monk
Vanaras +2Dex +2Wis -2Cha (That climbing comes in handy)
20 point buy
Currently level 6
Str: 12
Dex: 18
Con: 12
Int: 10
Wis: 18
Cha: 5
Level 20 Outline/Plan:
FEATS -> Class Abilities -> Bonus Feat(format)
LvL 1 Weapon Finesse -> IUS, FoB, Stunning Fist -> Dodge
LvL 2 xxxx -> Evasion -> Combat Reflexes
LvL 3 Weapon Focus(IUS) -> Fast movement, Maneuver Training, Still Mind ->xxxx
LvL 4 xxxx-> Ki Pool(Magic), Barkskin -> xxxx
LvL 5 Snake Style -> Purity of Body, True Strike -> xxxx
LvL 6 xxxx -> xxxx -> Improved Trip
LvL 7 Snake Sidewind -> Ki Pool(Cold Iron/Silver), Power Attack -> xxxx
LvL 8 xxxx -> xxxx -> xxxx
LvL 9 Snake Fang -> Improved Evasion -> xxxx
LvL 10 xxxx -> Ki Pool(Lawlful) -> xxxx
LvL 11 Dimensional Agility -> Diamond Body -> xxxx
LvL 12 xxxx -> Abundant Step -> xxxx
LvL 13 Dimensional Assault -> Diamond Soul -> xxxx
LvL 14 xxxx -> xxxx -> Improved Critical
LvL 15 Dimensional Dervish -> Quivering Palm -> xxxx
LvL 16 xxxx -> Ki Pool(Adamantite) -> xxxx
LvL 17 -> Timeless Body, Tongue of Sun and Moon -> xxxx
LvL 18 xxxx -> xxxx -> Medusa's Wrath
LvL 19 -> Empty Body -> xxxx
LvL 20 xxxx -> Perfect Self -> xxxx
Necessary Equipment:
Amulet of Mighty Fists +x w/Guided or Agile
Belt of Incredible Dexterity(Or The one that gives Str/Dex)+x
Headband of Inspired Wisdom +x
Ring of Protection +x
Ring of Freedom of Movement or Ring of Ki Mastery
I hope this helps!
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The best example of an unarmed DEX monk that I can think of.That is, DEX > STR monks that can keep up throughout a Pathfinder Adventure Path?
Preferably without dumpstatting INT or CHA?
Just trying to find some ways to make mine finally work.
He has a good Dex, but as an explosive fighter, he is actually an example of a high Strength monk (martial artist).
you can trade out the AoMF for a clockwork prosthetic (if you can get one. they're from Magical Marketplace)--you can enchant it normally as a weapon for any effect that would apply to an unarmed strike.
big moneysaver if you can get it. it'll just cost you an arm and/or a leg (literally).
and whatever you do, dont use the now-destroyed crane style.
just
dont even look, it'll break our heart.
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you can trade out the AoMF for a clockwork prosthetic (if you can get one. they're from Magical Marketplace)--you can enchant it normally as a weapon for any effect that would apply to an unarmed strike.
big moneysaver if you can get it. it'll just cost you an arm and/or a leg (literally).
Whoooooooa. What?! That'd be superb for a Monk.... is this legal in pathfinder?
If you have Weapon Finesse, you can already use your Dex for any maneuver that can be performed with a weapon. So, it's a low priority feat.
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I believe Dex monks make the best monks. (with proper build work, but hey, your a monk, you already got that).
reasons why-
Feats that let you use dex for plenty of things, agile AOMF, makes the 5k worth it imo. (true, takes up a slot and forces the buy, but eh.)
you are not only 3 ability dependent, so slightly less MAD since you don't need anything more than ~12 str. (though, dex builds hurt a bit early one around 1-4 levels)
higher ACs, more initiative, more MONK LIKE.
I prefer dex monks, though a good ole "goku" build can entertain me well :3
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so slightly less MAD since you don't need anything more than ~12 str. (though, dex builds hurt a bit early one around 1-4 levels)
higher ACs, more initiative, more MONK LIKE.I prefer dex monks, though a good ole "goku" build can entertain me well :3
Dex monks just feel right :3
If you like Goku types... The build I posted earlier is pretty accurate. Just might need to swap out some qinggong abilities for something more Goku like
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Sorry for the delay. Got swamped this weekend by sick.
Let's not talk about classes yet. What do you want your character to be able to do? What appeals to you about a dex focused monk? What would you like to focus on?
Unarmed, unarmored, fast and agile mystical martial artist, focusing more on grace and agility than brute strength. Still packing a potent punch, but generally trying to use his opponent's momentum, mistakes, and misses to deliver them or attacking with precision at pressure points to disable foes. Someone that could weave through and survive in the fray rather than having to hide from it. He'd be someone that...."flows". Moves like water. If there's a way to get minor supernatural powers akin to "hadokens"(like blood crow strike) or water and/or fire-themed enhancements to unarmed attacks(like the genie styles or something more close-range water/firebender-y in appearance) and ultimately good/holy enhancements, I'd jump all over it.
I'd like to be able to play up the "striker" aspect with hit and run tactics, running in with flying kicks and stunning jabs at pressure points, but everything I've read and tried so far paints it as a bad idea in general.
Generally calm and collected enlightened hero, or at least seeking enlightenment. Humble ascetic warrior, focusing on advancement through mastery of his own mind, body, and soul rather than magical gear(unfortunately that's pretty much impossible with current options if I want to be able to keep up in an Adventure Path). It would be nice to be able to pull this character off without him jangling with magical gear, but that just isn't going to happen.
Would only use weapons if ranged combat is necessary, probably shurikens reflavored as mini-chakrams.
Closer to Korada than a follower of Irori, though in personality and approach to life and enlightenment he falls somewhere between them.
Visual: The simply dressed ascetic monk. Basically Irori's portrait from Gods and Magic, maybe leaner, and that's almost exactly what he looks like. More Bruce Lee in build than Bolo Yeung. Wrappings around the forearms etched with prayers in Vudrani and Celestial.
So stuff like clockwork prosthetics and hungry ghost monks are too much of a theme breaker, even though they could be useful for other monks. Honestly, conceding to the need for Amulets of Mighty Fists bends the thematics enough as is, but there's no getting around that. Considered Monk of the Four Winds for those elemental thematics, but every option in Aspect Master falls squarely into "DO NOT WANT" territory as far as flavor goes. Might be able to reskin those though...
@Williamoak, I'll try to have something up tomorrow. Still taking in everything in the thread and will try to apply what's here towards that. Looking at this stat array at the moment though:
If 20-pt. buy,
LG human(Vudrani) monk
STR 12 (to justify the physique)
DEX 16 (as high as the agility can be played up without dropping elsewhere)
CON 13 (supposed to be super fit, going to have to buy this up ASAP)
INT 10 (Average intelligence)
WIS 16 (to play up the enlightenment aspect)
CHA 10 (not socially stunted, doesn't overly stand out, still has a chance at inspiring others)
Splitting up skills between Acrobatics(max), Escape Artist, Climb, Swim, Diplomacy, Sense Motive, and a few ranks thrown into appropriate Knowledges and Survival here and there.
The warning away from maneuvers is discouraging, especially since Flowing Monk was being considered. :( Pretty sure Qinggong is getting used though.
Thanks for the input everybody.
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8 CHA from my view is the "nerd" that somewhat fits in with the other kids.
but that aside, look into a judo master monk. focus on ki throws (trips) and grapples.
The classic judo master is exactly what you said, he uses his enemies momentum, to cause them to make mistakes, and then takes advantage on them.
Qinqqong monk sounds like a must.
Indeed. Not least because Blood Crow Strike is a Qinggong power, and you specifically said you wanted that. Can't get it until like 16th (actually 17h, because you need to wait until you hit Tongue of teh Sun and Moon to trade it out) though.
So if it's for an AP...that's out.
As for water bending, Hydraulic Push is a low level Qinggong Power.
isn't there a feat to let you use dex for CMB instead of Str?
Agile Maneuvers
If you have Weapon Finesse, you can already use your Dex for any maneuver that can be performed with a weapon. So, it's a low priority feat.
Actually, they'll need it. Without Combat Expertise, you can't get any other maneuver than Improved Grapple before level 6, and by level 6 you should have an agile amulet and can give or take maneuvers. Until then, though, you WILL need a maneuver because your damage is so light, and grapple should work a lot of the time at low levels. You can use it to take out a foe and pin them down while you squeeze the life out of them, without them being able to hurt you.
At 20PB I'd drop charisma a little and raise intelligence for the extra skills. You can't manage to be "all things to all men" with most classes, you have to choose what things you want to be.
If you are going with a dex monk, Snake Style is probably the best: you should have a high AC, and Snake Style allows you to turn that AC into attacks.
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Here is a sample build I like. It has plenty of nice ways to take advantage of maneuvers, when you FoB (doing damage) you get 1-3 free maneuvers attempts, so chances are, unless the thing you are fighting is outright immune to- tripping, grappling, blinding, or disarming. One of the maneuvers will get through. Add this to the damage you will do with your FoB attacks and you have a nice little thing going. You are also insanely hard to kill or stop on top.
25pt
Maneuver master
Str: 12
Dex: 16 (18) racial
Con: 14
Int: 12
Wis: 16
Cha: 7
Human
Feats
1-Vicous Stomp, improved trip, combat reflexes
2- Improved Grapple
3- Agile Maneuvers
5- Ki throw
6- Greater Trip
7- Enhanced Ki throw
9- Weapon Finesse
10- Greater Grapple
11- Pinning knockout
13- Binding Throw
14- Improved Dirty Trick
15- Extra Ki
17- Piranha strike
18- Improved Disarm
19-
A nice little rundown
at level 1- as a full attack he cant make two attacks, plus a maneuver at -2, if the trip is successful he gets an AoO with vicious stomp, and another when he stands next turn. If he attempts to move away from the monk he can be tripped again as an AoO. (I have seen people saying many-legged creatures are immune to trip, they are not, they just get bonuses to CMD IIRC per leg after 2)
at higher levels if your fighting flying creatures you have grapples that can do nice damage (pinning knockout) if they are immune to both you can blind them with dirty trick.
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Right now I'm wondering how much not taking the Greater maneuver feats will really hurt my ability to grapple/trip. Relocating the stats to get the INT needed for it is like pulling teeth.
Indeed. Not least because Blood Crow Strike is a Qinggong power, and you specifically said you wanted that. Can't get it until like 16th (actually 17h, because you need to wait until you hit Tongue of teh Sun and Moon to trade it out) though.
I could still grab it at 15th by ditching Quivering Palm, and given my luck with Stunning Fist(it has never worked once), that's looking likely. Unless I go with Flowing Monk after all...
Speaking of which: How have folks' experiences with the Flowing Monk been so far?
Snake Style is looking more and more like a lock. It'd be nice to be able to pick up Efreeti or Marid Styles too, but they probably need to be lower priority...
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Here's my PFS character. He has a +1 to dex (left Lantern Lodge), but even without he is quite powerful @ level 10. Manuever Master special lets him add +4 to 1 maneuver / turn, and he attacks 8 times per turn with Manuever/Punch/Punch/Punch - 5/Punch -5 / Claw / Claw / Bite at :
Manuever/+18/+18/+13/+13/+15/+15/+15 for d8+11 per punch (d3+7 / natural attack). Usually trades out several attacks / turn for maneuvers (his standard is to blind using dirty trick for the maneuver for the round; then trip anyone possible @ -5 with natural attacks and finish with some damage). AC is typically 31 (4 from mage armor and 2 from barkskin is typically added in). If he can get in trips (getting more rare @ high levels), he gets 2 AOOs / opponent that is around him on the ground (he has pulled off the "dream" 17 attack round a few times).
He also has the Flying carpet so flying opponents don't bug him (flies up and grapples dragons @ +31)
Polly:
Polly
Male Tengu Fighter (Lore Warden) 5/Monk (Monk of the Four Winds, Maneuver Master, Qinggong Monk) 5
LN Medium humanoid (tengu)
Init +11; Senses low-light vision, scent; Perception +20
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Defense
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AC 25, touch 25, flat-footed 17 (+8 Dex, +1 deflection, +1 insight, +5 untyped)
hp 82 (5d10+5d8+23)
Fort +15, Ref +16, Will +12
Defensive Abilities evasion
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Offense
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Speed 40 ft.
Melee bite +15 (1d3+7/×2) and
2 claws +15 (1d3+7/×2) and
unarmed strike +20/+15 (1d8+11/×2)
Special Attacks ki strike, magic, weapon training abilities (natural +3)
Spell-Like Abilities
—barkskin (self only, 1 ki)
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Statistics
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Str 7, Dex 26, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 18, Cha 7
Base Atk +8; CMB +24 (+27 grapple, +31 trip); CMD 34 (38 vs. disarm, 38 vs. grapple, 38 vs. sunder, 38 vs. trip)
Feats Agile Maneuvers, Blind-Fight, Combat Expertise, Combat Reflexes, Elemental Fist, Greater Trip, Improved Grapple, Improved Trip, Improved Two-weapon Fighting, Improved Unarmed Strike, Two-weapon Fighting, Vicious Stomp, Weapon Finesse
Traits fiendish presence, reactionary
Skills Acrobatics +22 (+26 jump), Diplomacy +3, Disable Device +14, Escape Artist +12 (+13 competence to break a grapple), Fly +12, Knowledge (arcana) +7, Knowledge (dungeoneering) +7, Knowledge (engineering) +6, Knowledge (local) +6, Knowledge (nature) +6, Knowledge (planes) +7, Knowledge (religion) +7, Perception +20, Sense Motive +16, Sleight of Hand +9, Stealth +15, Survival +15 (+17 to avoid becoming lost), Swim +3; Racial Modifiers +2 Perception, +2 Stealth
Languages Abyssal, Common, Tengu, Tien
SQ ac bonus, fast movement, flurry of maneuvers, ki defense, ki pool, maneuver defense, maneuver training, meditative maneuver, monk vows (vow of truth [+1 ki]), reliable maneuver, unarmed strike
Combat Gear Wand of Cure Light Wounds, Wand of Mage Armor, Alchemist's fire (6); Other Gear Agile Amulet of mighty fists, Armbands of the brawler, Belt of incredible dexterity +4, Carpet of flying I, Cloak of resistance +2, Gloves of dueling, Headband of inspired wisdom +2, Ioun stone (dark blue rhomboid, cracked), Ioun stone (dusty rose prism), Ioun stone (dusty rose prism, cracked), Ioun stone (pale green prism (cracked, Attack), Ioun stone (pale green prism (cracked, saves), Ioun stone (pink rhomboid), Ioun stone (vermillion rhomboid, cracked), Ring of protection +1, Wayfinder (1 @ 0 lbs), Courtier's outfit, Silk rope, Thieves' tools, masterwork, 3158 GP, 5 SP
@Thalin: Is multi attack a no go in PFS?
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Multi-attack is a monster feat, so it's a no-go. But it's still fine; and you might not take it by high levels (would have been a godsend at early levels, so probably I would have taken it early and retrained it out with fighter levels later, since I would still need Improved Two-weapon and such to get the extra attacks); and the c-c-b is difficult to land and doesn't do much damage anyway (most enemies I can trip @ -5 if that option is available though; so that's how I tend to use natural attacks).
Having said that, it is rare that a martial gets described by most casters as "overpowered". He has great saves, very good damage output, and can battlefield control like most wizards can dream. Even at early levels (before AOMF/Weapon Finessee) he was very competent at grappling, tripping, and occasionally disarming to render opponents worthless. So fun from levels 1-10; though the ratio of incorporels, freedom of movemented, and flying creatures make things more difficult as you get higher (which is why having the "damage option" is nice).
I just read up on the issue of multi attack in PFS and it seems like it's fair game as an alternate Source (Natural Weapon Ranger) has opened it up.
I was looking a building a Champion of Irori with some ideas that might help. 2 levels of flowing monk +2 of ninja with pressure point strike plus snake style gives you flat footed opponents when they miss you and you hit with your aoo followed by a strength or dex draining flurry. Later on medusa's wrath to add more str or dex damage if you can stomach the prerequisites.
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I was looking a building a Champion of Irori with some ideas that might help. 2 levels of flowing monk +2 of ninja with pressure point strike plus snake style gives you flat footed opponents when they miss you and you hit with your aoo followed by a strength or dex draining flurry. Later on medusa's wrath to add more str or dex damage if you can stomach the prerequisites.
I always forget about Ninja. q_q
Maybe I'll try to combine ninja, druid, and monk...