This is puzzling me.
Let's say I want to gain an initiative advantage over an enemy by reducing its initiative.
I have several ways to do this, a myriad of Dex reduction methods but most easily special abilities and spells that deafen.
Deafened's big hit is a -4 to initiative checks. But how can I get that to apply? If I say I want to take a hostile action to deafen the enemy, that triggers an initiative roll that is locked in before the action resolves, so the penalty doesn't apply to this combat.
Do I have to hit from stealth, end combat somehow, and then re-engage with the penalty in place?
I know house-rules can fix it, but I'm trying to understand RAW implications.
I would say that you would have to get something like that off in the surprise round, and if successful it would modify the enemy's initiative result for that combat.
Set up a trap or the like I suppose. They open a door, a Thunderstone goes off, and then you start pouring in the pain.
Could work?
Does a thunderstone lower a target's initiative if you all are already in combat? Always wondered that.
Ha, conversely, I had never considered it!
On that note, if you drain someone's dexterity score, does their order in the initiative line drop?
Went ahead and moved this conversation to another thread, so as to not derail the OP.
There are some spells in the Pathfinder 1001 spells book that can lower(decrease) an enemy's initiative...
I remember one of them was a Zero Level Spell (Bard) called Pause... it delayed an enemy's initiative by 4... (Will save I believe)...
Cool thing is that its an immediate action to cast..
There are also some other higher level spells that affect initiative.
Ultimately I don't think there are any RAW ways to do this. Deafened as a condition isn't tied to combat; a creature who was made deaf in any way and hasn't had it healed will be deafened when it makes its initiative check. You can't apply that condition yourself because initiative is rolled before attack spells/actions are allowed.
Once initiative is established ability scores no longer matter. Initiative is primarily about initial reaction and is otherwise an abstraction. Taking Dex damage rounds into combat doesn't change the order because there's no RAW even suggesting such a thing happens.
3rd-party spells and abilities that alter opponents' initiative (or your own such as 3.5e nerveskitter) have to be adjudicated by the DM at each table.
One thought though is that if you can use Diplomacy or other means to convince an opponent to accept a spell willingly, you can cast upon them outside of combat. That said, if you aren't casting what you said you'd cast and any opponent has Spellcraft, I'd allow as a DM that if they catch on you're casting something other than what you said you'd cast there'd be an initiative roll before the spell completes. (Though you'd have a surprise round.)
tell a joke.
laughing creatures suffer -4 initiative.
tell a joke.
laughing creatures suffer -4 initiative.
LOL
Ultimately I don't think there are any RAW ways to do this. Deafened as a condition isn't tied to combat; a creature who was made deaf in any way and hasn't had it healed will be deafened when it makes its initiative check. You can't apply that condition yourself because initiative is rolled before attack spells/actions are allowed.
Other elaborate shenanigans that require first being in a non-combat situation with the creature:
Bluff the creature into accepting a thunderstone as a "party cracker" or something else innocuous (get them drunk and give it to them in a box with a forged label for maximum effect), then convince them they should totally throw it at that wall over there that puts them in the blast radius but you and your party just outside.I'm not even sure that would technically work, but I sure as heck like the idea of it just for pure "who DOES that?" effect.
Humorous edit: My initiative must stink; I came in behind a laughing creature!