Create wand but not know spell


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The magic item creation rules mention that you can have another spellcaster cast a spell to fulfill the construction requirements for a magic item. Can you do this for wands as well?

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
Cyrad wrote:
The magic item creation rules mention that you can have another spellcaster cast a spell to fulfill the construction requirements for a magic item. Can you do this for wands as well?

That's a GM's call. Some will say that the specific rules require that the feat bearer know the spell. Others will say that other casters who DO know the spell can contribute. Both calls are equally valid.

What is pretty much definite though, that you can't bypass it by simply upping the spellcraft DC.


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Cyrad wrote:
The magic item creation rules mention that you can have another spellcaster cast a spell to fulfill the construction requirements for a magic item. Can you do this for wands as well?

Yes.

LazarX raises the points that could be made, but it's really not unclear at all, and rarely brought up (except on forums). Potions, scrolls, wands, and staves all require the spell actually be provided, but it doesn't have to be by the person with the crafting feat. FYI - some staves would be virtually impossible to create without this ability.

Of those, only scrolls is a really oddball one. I personally houserule that out in my home game.


Both Majuba and LazarX are correct. The rules say that Majuba is right, but as with anything of this nature, your GM must be asked too.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
Majuba wrote:


LazarX raises the points that could be made, but it's really not unclear at all, and rarely brought up (except on forums). Potions, scrolls, wands, and staves all require the spell actually be provided, but it doesn't have to be by the person with the crafting feat. FYI - some staves would be virtually impossible to create without this ability.

I call to your attention, the odd duck known as the Mystic Theurge.


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LazarX wrote:
Majuba wrote:
FYI - some staves would be virtually impossible to create without this ability.
I call to your attention, the odd duck known as the Mystic Theurge.

You are correct - I thought there was a core example of a staff that required significantly high level spells from two spell lists. I think I was blending the Staff of Defense (15th level cleric, 1st level wizard) with the Helm of Brilliance (3rd level Druid, 13th level Wizard). After an extensive search, I find the most difficult staff to create requires (without providing the spell from elsewhere) at most one level of multi-classing.


I recall seeing a developer say that having another caster provide the spell requirement should work fine. I think it was Sean K Reynolds. What's never been entirely clear to me is how you'd figure out the level of the spell if the two casters are of different classes. What happens if a Bard and a Summoner make a wand of Haste, for instance? Does the spell level come from the character with the Craft Wand feat or the one supplying the spell? What if the same Bard works on a wand of Fireball with a Sorcerer supplying the spell?

I've been working under the assumption that you can also provide the spell from a scroll during each day you spend crafting. If so this makes it quite affordable to make wands of all the 0 and 1st level spells you want access to. Even spending a little more to make a wand of a 2nd level spell might be preferable to taking it as a spell known.


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Devilkiller wrote:
What's never been entirely clear to me is how you'd figure out the level of the spell if the two casters are of different classes. What happens if a Bard and a Summoner make a wand of Haste, for instance? Does the spell level come from the character with the Craft Wand feat or the one supplying the spell? What if the same Bard works on a wand of Fireball with a Sorcerer supplying the spell?

For potions, spell-trigger, spell-completion items, it would be based on the one supplying the spell, as that is the spell that is actually being used in the creation of the item. For your examples:

Summoner w/feat, Bard w/spell: Spell level 3, minimum CL 7, 15750 market price.
Bard w/feat, Summoner w/spell: Spell level 2, minimum CL 4, 6000 market price.
Bard w/feat, Sorcerer w/spell: Spell level 3, minimum CL 6, 13500 market price.


Majuba wrote:
Devilkiller wrote:
What's never been entirely clear to me is how you'd figure out the level of the spell if the two casters are of different classes. What happens if a Bard and a Summoner make a wand of Haste, for instance? Does the spell level come from the character with the Craft Wand feat or the one supplying the spell? What if the same Bard works on a wand of Fireball with a Sorcerer supplying the spell?

For potions, spell-trigger, spell-completion items, it would be based on the one supplying the spell, as that is the spell that is actually being used in the creation of the item.

Is this a house ruling, or can you source this?


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Orfamay Quest wrote:
Is this a house ruling, or can you source this?

I wouldn't call it a house ruling... I would call it extrapolation from the rules.

Spell level (and minimum caster level) is generally set by the levels that the crafter can cast them at. E.g. wizard fireball wand is minimum 5th level, a sorcerer fireball wand is minimum 6th. When the crafter isn't providing the spell, they may not even be capable of casting the spell (either not on the spell list or insufficient level). The only reasonable source of those factors is the source of the spell, whether another caster or scrolls.

Madness!:
If the spell is provided during crafting by multiple casters with different spell levels and minimum caster levels, begin worshiping Lamashtu, because you will surely go mad quite soon.


If nothing else, relying on the spell rather than the feat to set the spell level would prevent strange questions like, "What level spell is Scorching Ray for a Bard?"

I suppose another approach might be to use the rules for item pricing where spells are assumed to come from the Wizard list, then the Cleric list, then from...somewhere I can't remember. Does anybody know where those rules are listed?

Dark Archive

I know the the general rule states:

Quote:
Note that all items have prerequisites in their descriptions. These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created. Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be known by the item's creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed). The DC to create a magic item increases by +5 for each prerequisite the caster does not meet. The only exception to this is the requisite item creation feat, which is mandatory. In addition, you cannot create potions, spell-trigger, or spell-completion magic items without meeting their spell prerequisites.

The bolded section states that, in general, you can use other spell casters or magic items to cover the spell prerequisites for a magic item. The last line does not counter act this statement (other then to reinforce that you need the spell prereqs for potions, spell-trigger, or spell-completion items and cannot bypass them by adding +5 DC).

The only part in question is under creating wands and staves where it says:

Creating Staves wrote:
The creator must have prepared the spells to be stored (or must know the spells, in the case of a sorcerer or bard) and must provide any focus the spells require as well as material component costs sufficient to activate the spell 50 times (divide this amount by the number of charges one use of the spell expends).

and

Creating Wands wrote:
The creator must have prepared the spell to be stored (or must know the spell, in the case of a sorcerer or bard) and must provide any focuses the spell requires.

But this is highly similar to the text in magic weapons, armor, rings, and wondrous items.

Craft Weapons wrote:
If spells are involved in the prerequisites for making the weapon, the creator must have prepared the spells to be cast (or must know the spells, in the case of a sorcerer or bard) but need not provide any material components or focuses the spells require.

To me this all states that you do not need the spell personally, only that you need to have it available each day. So crafting a wand of Cure Moderate wounds (price 4500 gp, 5 days to craft), could be done with 5 cure moderate potions and a wizard with the Craft Wands feat.


I think you'd need to use scrolls rather than potions since presumably the spell gets put into the item, not into the crafter. I suppose that a "seed" wand could also be used to craft new wands of the same spell.

Dark Archive

Well, maybe "Oil of Cure Moderate Wounds" would work.


Majuba wrote:
Devilkiller wrote:
What's never been entirely clear to me is how you'd figure out the level of the spell if the two casters are of different classes. What happens if a Bard and a Summoner make a wand of Haste, for instance? Does the spell level come from the character with the Craft Wand feat or the one supplying the spell? What if the same Bard works on a wand of Fireball with a Sorcerer supplying the spell?

For potions, spell-trigger, spell-completion items, it would be based on the one supplying the spell, as that is the spell that is actually being used in the creation of the item. For your examples:

Summoner w/feat, Bard w/spell: Spell level 3, minimum CL 7, 15750 market price.
Bard w/feat, Summoner w/spell: Spell level 2, minimum CL 4, 6000 market price.
Bard w/feat, Sorcerer w/spell: Spell level 3, minimum CL 6, 13500 market price.

CRB p549 wrote:
Since different classes get access to certain spells at different levels, the prices for two characters to make the same item might actually be different. An item is only worth two times what the caster of the lowest possible level can make it for. Calculate the market price based on the lowest possible level caster, no matter who makes the item.

Earliest for Haste is Summoner at 4th level with a 2nd level spell. Therefore, no matter who makes the item, the market price is 6000gp.

Earliest for Fireball is Wizard at 5th level with a 3rd level spell. Therefore, no matter who makes the item, the market price is 11250gp.

The cost to make the item may be different. The market price is the same.

/cevah


Actually, I think a wand of Haste would cost 11,250gp at "Ye Olde Magic Shoppe" or the local magical mega-mart since Haste appears on the Sor/Wiz list as a 3rd level spell. It is really the cost to craft the item that I was wondering about though.


Devilkiller wrote:
Actually, I think a wand of Haste would cost 11,250gp at "Ye Olde Magic Shoppe" or the local magical mega-mart since Haste appears on the Sor/Wiz list as a 3rd level spell. It is really the cost to craft the item that I was wondering about though.

Earlier you wrote:

Devilkiller wrote:
I suppose another approach might be to use the rules for item pricing where spells are assumed to come from the Wizard list, then the Cleric list, then from...somewhere I can't remember. Does anybody know where those rules are listed?

This sequence reference is the order of determining arcane or divine spell-like abilities found in the bestiary (here). No relation to magic item pricing. Since a Summoner can cast Haste as a 2nd level spell at 4th level, the price is 6000 per CRB. If you don't want to allow alternate casters to drive the price of an item due to early access, then you have a house rule.

/cevah

Dark Archive

Cevah wrote:
Devilkiller wrote:
Actually, I think a wand of Haste would cost 11,250gp at "Ye Olde Magic Shoppe" or the local magical mega-mart since Haste appears on the Sor/Wiz list as a 3rd level spell. It is really the cost to craft the item that I was wondering about though.

Earlier you wrote:

Devilkiller wrote:
I suppose another approach might be to use the rules for item pricing where spells are assumed to come from the Wizard list, then the Cleric list, then from...somewhere I can't remember. Does anybody know where those rules are listed?

This sequence reference is the order of determining arcane or divine spell-like abilities found in the bestiary (here). No relation to magic item pricing. Since a Summoner can cast Haste as a 2nd level spell at 4th level, the price is 6000 per CRB. If you don't want to allow alternate casters to drive the price of an item due to early access, then you have a house rule.

/cevah

Of course, for that extra 5,250 gp for the wizard version, you are paying for it to hit an extra person and last 1 round more.

If this is not enough of a difference for most people to notice, then you think that the summoner would just sell it at the higher cost (since it may be the more common cost).


I don't feel any need to house rule this. I think I just picked up an incorrect conclusion from reading other threads where people were upset about Summoners being able to craft wands of Haste for less. I guess I couldn't find the rule because it didn't exist. That's slightly embarrassing, but at least I've learned something.

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