Let's face it. The fighter is a mundane class surrounded by class with spells or things like spells. Basically the only way for a fighter to keep up is to give her access to OP options like the barbar which leads to power creep as both the barbar and the fighter have a perpetual pissing contest. You know what? If you want to play the mundane warrior, your best bet is to just play a barbar.
You know what is also a mundane that one of least optimal choices for their role? The rogue.
Both of these characters focus on one mundane aspect in the game that just can't keep up with the "special" everyone else gets.
Solution? Just gestalt the classes together and watch a pure mundane actually be comparable to a ranger. The ranger is basically the fighter/rogue gestalt that trades some bonus feats and rogue talents for an animal companion and spellcasting.
I would not be power-creep to bring notably underpowered options "up to par". Of course this won't happen while people constrain an individual who can jump from the top of the stratosphere and survive no problem to the mundane reality of real life. Really people just need to accept that a 7th level Fighter is already something outside of our reality and should be able to break our reality's rules correspondingly.
They have their place. I'd call them niche before I call them trash.
The thing is- the Fighter can have Fly cast on him. In fact, my Sorc often does that exact thing, if needed- since the fighter can put out several times more damage than even my 13th level sorc can. Easily. You can't measure any one classes "power" or "adaptability" as to how well it does in a solo arena battle vs a known opponent. D&D is a TEAM game.
Just so you know, you chose to do less damage than the Fighter. A Caster can obliterate martials in the raw damage department. You chose to validate the Fighter's existence. This isn't a bad thing by any means, but it glosses over the fact that the Fighters role in bringing damage(pretty much his only use) is ultimately pointless. Instead of killing the enemy, you used your action to let him do it as his action.
1st level, Casters can still determine who wins or loses a solid number of times a day. Color Spray the most egregious offender can hit a DC of 15-16 at first level fairly easily with an 18 casting stat and Spell Focus. A Sorcerer can get 5 color sprays a day with the Arcane Bloodline. A Gnome can get a DC of 17 at first level. 18 Charisma with racial already added in, Spell Focus(Illusion), +1 Gnome bonus, 1st level spell. 50/50 failure rate for a CR 4 monster with a Good Will Save.
Actually no, martials do more damage than spellcasters. And, it's not that I "chose to validate the Fighter's existence" it's that my Sorc is a Untility and battlefield control mage, not a direct damage mage (altho he can do that too, if needed). It's pretty well accepted that battlefield control is the single best way for a mage to go.
Bringing damage is pointless? Huh? What are we supposed to do, tickle them to death? Until you kill them, they can hit back. Battlefield control exists so that I can bring my "big gun" (the fighter) to bear against the target we want to kill first, and not allow the bad guys to pile on us. It's teamwork. The cleric buffs, I control the battlefield and the fighter does damage.
Sure, you can get 5 Color sprays a day. That means no Mage armor, no shield spell, etc. Your AC there is what? 12? And 7 HP? Thus, once one of those monsters makes his save, you can't cast color spray anymore- as dead sorcs can't cast (undead maybe, but not dead). And of course, many foes are immune to color spray- you don't have ranks in KS religion so you dont know that Undead, etc are immune so you'll run right up and try your one trick - and die. Not very 'adaptable". Unless you cheat by metagaming.
Prone Shooter.... nuff said...
@CWheezey
Those are definitely niche. They have a place even if you can't conceive a build or world that they'd be useful in.
Reading those feats made my head hurt and gave my friends a good laugh.
What niche requires you to make a successful overrun attempt to make an attack you could have made without the overrun?
Or to take a standard action to do nothing?
Nothing requires it. However, nothing requires a magus to deliver touch spells with his weapon. It is, though, the more optimal way to do it given other benefits. With overrun, that's the prone condition.
If your attack exceeds your opponent's CMD by 5 or more, you move through the target's space and the target is knocked prone.
Prone is generally considered advantageous, no?
@CWheezey
Those are definitely niche. They have a place even if you can't conceive a build or world that they'd be useful in.
No they are trash. You were wrong accept it and move on.
EDIT: Find a way to make a feat that allows you to whenever you succeed your overrun attempt, fail it and make an attack. Something you could have just done by charging normally except without the chance of failure.
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Prone is generally considered advantageous, no?
Except Elephant Stomp cancels the prone condition in favor of a single unarmed/natural weapon attack as an immediate action.
The feat allows you to NOT overrun, NOT render the target prone, AND spend your immediate action to make an attack agains the target.
Instead of just moving up to him and making your attack as normal, and keeping your immediate action for the round.
When I first read that feat I thought it meant that you bull rush AND attack.
I'll give you that one. I actually read it. Monkey lunge, though, at least give some sort of benefit.
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When I first read that feat I thought it meant that you bull rush AND attack.
I'm sure that was the intent, and deleting the 'and knocking her prone' part of the feat would help fix that. Adding 'this attack occurs after the target falls prone' would make it crystal clear.
I'll give you that one. I actually read it. Monkey lunge, though, at least give some sort of benefit.
How? If you use your standard action to increase your reach, you have no actions left to make an attack with. And the increased reach only lasts until the end of your turn, so you can't use it with attacks of opportunity.
I'll give you that one. I actually read it. Monkey lunge, though, at least give some sort of benefit.
Until you realize that lunge last until the end of your turn not until your next turn.
So you burn a standard action to do nothing. Unless you can somehow make an attack with a move action.
That's got to be a misprint. Unless there's another feat or something in the same source book that lets you make an attack, it makes zero sense. With elephant stomp, you at least get to make an attack (maybe).
Attacks of opportunity would be a potential application.
Actually no, martials do more damage than spellcasters. And, it's not that I "chose to validate the Fighter's existence" it's that my Sorc is a Untility and battlefield control mage, not a direct damage mage (altho he can do that too, if needed). It's pretty well accepted that battlefield control is the single best way for a mage to go.Bringing damage is pointless? Huh? What are we supposed to do, tickle them to death? Until you kill them, they can hit back. Battlefield control exists so that I can bring my "big gun" (the fighter) to bear against the target we want to kill first, and not allow the bad guys to pile on us. It's teamwork. The cleric buffs, I control the battlefield and the...
Sigh.
A Mage who wants to deal damage can easily output more than any Martial. Thus the Fighter has no real use when you can be the one bringing the damage AND warping reality to your whim. Your scenario wreaks of hand holding. "Here little fighter man, let me cast a spell on you so you can actually function instead of obliterating it myself. Don't you feel great? *Pats him on the head*"
Well the flavor text reads "You deliver a crushing blow to downed enemies." so I presume and house rule that Elephant stop reads
When you overrun an opponent and your maneuver check exceeds your opponent's CMD by 5 or more, instead of moving through your opponent's space, you may stop in the space directly in front of the opponent (or the nearest adjacent space) and make one attack with an unarmed strike or a natural weapon against that opponent as an immediate action.
so that the opponent is still knocked prone and you've begun curbstomping him.
That's got to be a misprint. Unless there's another feat or something in the same source book that lets you make an attack, it makes zero sense. With elephant stomp, you at least get to make an attack (maybe).
Attacks of opportunity would be a potential application.
Lunge only lasts until the end of your turn, so that's out too.
As for the Fighter that needs Fly cast on him, that character is literally being carried by his teammates. Not something you want to be doing in a team game. A Magus or Eldritch Knight is not so reliant on party resources (spells, actions) and actually brings his own pool of solutions to the party. That is a worthwhile measure of a character's power and adaptability.
That's why you gestalt fighter and rogue together! Still needs to use UMD or boots to fly though...
That's why classes like Fighter and Rogue should only go up five or six levels. After that, let them prestige into supernaturally improved variants.
1 | Trapfinding
Toughness, Intimidating Prowess, Combat Reflexes
Sneak Attack +1d6
2 |Bravery +1, Evasion
Power Attack
Trap Spotter
3 |Armor training,trap sense +1
Cleave
Sneak Attack +2d6
4 | Uncanny dodge
Great Cleave
Combat Trick(Blind-Fight)
5 |Weapon training(Blades, Heavy)
Skill Focus(UMD)
Sneak Attack +3d6
6 |Bravery +2, trap sense +2
Lunge
Bleeding Attack
7 |Armor training
Iron Will
Sneak Attack +4d6
8 | Improved Uncanny dodge
Quick Draw
Slow Reactions
9 |Weapon training(Bows), trap sense +3
Point-Blank Shot
Sneak Attack +5d6
10|Bravery +3, advance talents
Rapid Shot
Skill Mastery
11|Armor training
Deadly Aim
Sneak Attack +6d6
12| Trap sense +4
Far Shot
Opportunist
13|Weapon training(Spears)
Leadership
Sneak Attack +7d6
14|Bravery +4,
Mounted Combat
Crippling Strike
15|Armor training,trap sense+5
Mounted Archery
Sneak Attack +8d6
16|
Ride-By Attack
Feat(Manyshot)
17|Weapon training(Close)
Spirited Charge
Sneak Attack +9d6
18|Bravery +5, trap sense+6
Trample
Improved Evasion
19|Armor mastery
Improved Iron Will
Sneak Attack +10d6
20|weapon mastery(GS), Master Strike
Improved Critical(GS)
Weapon Training(GS)
Mythic Feats: Power Attack, Rapid Shot, Mounted Combat, Toughness, Deadly Aim
Mythic Path Abilities: Longevity, Impossible Speed, Fleet Warrior, Precision, Precision, Precision, Limitless Range, Crusader, Shatter Spells, Farwalker
I'm pretty sure that the author believed that Lunge involved making an attack as a part of its action, and wanted Monkey Lunge to exclude the ability to full-attack at reach without penalty. However, it just ended up making the feat non-functional.
Well... I suppose you could use it with a Quickened touch spell...
Yeah, those may be errors, so what? I mean, they thought Prone Shooter actually helped, so it was hardly a 'trap", but they worded it wrong, and now it's fixed. Still, sure, for most folks there's a better choice, but it's not a 'trap".
Paizo devs are human* and they make mistakes. Big deal.
*for the most part, anyway. ;-)
Paizo devs are human* and they make mistakes. Big deal.The deal is when people say those errors aren't errors and are factually wrong by saying the feats work as written. Being able to adjust at table does not change what was written.
Cite?
They fixed Prone Shooter, did they not?
Who can really know?. Look at this feat
** spoiler omitted **
To say the least, it is a bad feat. It is not usseless, it is pretty thematic, but it is extremely weak.
Did it was a mistake? or maybe a miscalculation? or the dev is simply telling us that if you are playing a martial then you have always have to look for full attacks and stop asking for variants?Compare against a feat for spellcaster that is located in the same book
** spoiler omitted **...
Those are two examples that don't necessarily embody the feats within the book. Blood of the Moon has a magic item that specifically doesn't replicate a potion, but only makes detection spells think the replicated non-potion is magical. Seems like a bad item, yes? Does this mean the Skinwalker races are worthless, too? The idea I feel about water balloons from SKR is that not that some paths are traps, it's that some players feel entitled that everything they do should be optimized if they want to go down that route.
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Paizo devs are human* and they make mistakes. Big deal.The deal is when people say those errors aren't errors and are factually wrong by saying the feats work as written. Being able to adjust at table does not change what was written.Cite?
They fixed Prone Shooter, did they not?
Yes, but that is irrelevant to the discussion Buri just participated in.
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Not sure how the typical barbarian and ranger have fly on them. NAd it is not like most paladin have that too.
Barbarians are also quite reliant on buffs, but they do bring a few useful tricks like Spell Sunder. That might potentially save a caster a standard action and a third (or sixth) level spell. On top of that they do the same job as the Fighter, only better.
Paladins can't really get Fly, but they have their own particular set of solutions that can really come in handy. Powerful Justice and Blessing of Fervor (from the Oath of Vengeance) are major buffs for the whole party (Fervor also saves someone a turn on casting Haste). They can take a feat to share their fear immunity with everyone in a 20' radius. Their Mercies potentially save the party from having to prepare such highly specific spells as Remove Curse, Remove Blindness, Remove Paralysis, etc. They can even cast a better Raise Dead, which came in handy when I played an archer Paladin in Rise of the Runelords.
(We were level 16. The Dex-based Fighter did everything he could to increase his AC, and he still got squashed flat on every other encounter.)
The point is, they don't have to have spells per se. They just have to have some things that do the same job as spells.
Yes, but that is irrelevant to the discussion Buri just participated in.Paizo devs are human* and they make mistakes. Big deal.The deal is when people say those errors aren't errors and are factually wrong by saying the feats work as written. Being able to adjust at table does not change what was written.Cite?
They fixed Prone Shooter, did they not?
Who is Buri and what discussion are you talking about???
i can get behind more feats that have some meat the bones
we have to keep in mind, how much of a pain it must be coming up with all those feats. so writer i thank you for all the content good and bad i rather have it and never need it ... etc
1 light cross bow rock in the hands of my wiz and every one keep giving him up grades for free of the mobs. it beat ray of frost
2 i saw stats for a str 5 caster that fine but just pray you gm dose not make you calculate how much you can care because 13pounds is not a lot of wiggle room 51 and you can't move more then five feet
3 i am a casual gamer because the i seen 27 year-old man have a heart attack over the bull s** some player where bring in to his game because they thought they were pro gamers
it seem to me this topic has gotten of topic was it not about spell being op
Who is Buri and what discussion are you talking about???
Me. >:D
some time you have to look throw a few 100 bad feats to find one really good one like "Nimble Moves" way to good at higher levels but i bet i will be the only one to take it
the rest of the party has to give attacks of op to the frost giants just to move up a squire trow the snow just so they can hit.(this is how it been the last two game)
i'm fine with giving PCs a 25 point buy and allowing them to get back points from dumping stats. it allows them to focus more on their tertiary and secondary stats after focusing on their primary. because the extra points from dumping and a high point buy, don't go to your primary stat. they go to your secondary, tertiary and fluff stats.
most casters are going to have that 20 casting stat anyway, i merely open it up for barbarians to have a decent intelligence and wisdom alongside their strength and constitution, even at the expense of dumping charisma as low as 5 after racial modifiers
high point buys, help martial characters feel less inferior to spellcasters. because martial guys are always multiple attribute dependant, and many could use more intelligence or wisdom, even at the cost of a poor charisma.