You know, its funny ... But you are awfully presumptuous about what other peoples ethnicities are. I'll leave it at that.If that's your ONLY retort? Then:
1) You missed the part where I said:
"It's not your place to tell me whether or not I should be offended at being called a n$*#@% or not. I dont care if YOU are black."2) Your retort is one that I've heard more than a few times before and doesn't put me off at all. If you were black and wanted to make point you'd just say so, instead of the old "...You dont know my ethnicity!" gambit. So you're not being clever here. That retort is kinda old.
3) It STILL doesn't address anything that you've said as to anyone else's value or worth and why YOU not being offended by something means that anyone who is offended is thin skinned or "looking" to be offended.
Look carefully and find me where it is said that ANYONE who is offended is thing skinned? I bet you won't find it.
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Two seperate propositions: a: I tend to be very stingy with gettin seriously offended myself. B: there is a class of people who are perpetually hunting for reasons to be offended. The existance of category B does not in any way imply that there are legitimate reasons to get offended - only that if you are constantly looking for it you will almost certainly constantly find it.
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Look carefully and find me where it is said that ANYONE who is offended is thing skinned? I bet you won't find it.You know, its funny ... But you are awfully presumptuous about what other peoples ethnicities are. I'll leave it at that.If that's your ONLY retort? Then:
1) You missed the part where I said:
"It's not your place to tell me whether or not I should be offended at being called a n$*#@% or not. I dont care if YOU are black."2) Your retort is one that I've heard more than a few times before and doesn't put me off at all. If you were black and wanted to make point you'd just say so, instead of the old "...You dont know my ethnicity!" gambit. So you're not being clever here. That retort is kinda old.
3) It STILL doesn't address anything that you've said as to anyone else's value or worth and why YOU not being offended by something means that anyone who is offended is thin skinned or "looking" to be offended.
You know what you're right. You didnt LITERALLY say that.
But the implication is there in your statements. But even if you say "no that's NOT what I was implying"? Fine/ Lets address what you actually said. And seeing as we're talking about people being called n~##@#s and it being implied that maybe, just MAYBE they shouldn't be offended by that?
"It is a problem when you meet people who go into every conversation actively looking for something to be offended by, who aren't happy unless they are unhappy, or offended."
"And quite often I find that the people who are perpetually offended are guilty of just the thing you are mentioning; showing negligence and sheer disregard for the feelings of others in the pursuit of whatever their particular 'I'm offended' crusade is."
I find this one REALLY special. Using the aforementioned example of the old lady just referring to any black person as a N*@$~!. The idea that me getting offended by that paints ME as someone who, AND I QUOTE : ...showing negligence and sheer disregard for the feelings of others in the pursuit of whatever their particular 'I'm offended' crusade is"
"Also, obviously doesn't apply in "serious" cases - however the problem lies in people that elevate EVERY instance to the level of 'serious'. Every fire is a five alarm fire."
Yes, of course. YOU get to decide what serious cases are. Which should be addressed and which shouldn't because checking someone who offends you so that you:
A) Let them know that to YOU it's unacceptable to be called a n$~+&&
B) And that's it's probably NOT okay to be calling people in general n@%~~#s all willy nilly like.
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Two seperate propositions: a: I tend to be very stingy with gettin seriously offended myself. B: there is a class of people who are perpetually hunting for reasons to be offended. The existance of category B does not in any way imply that there are legitimate reasons to get offended - only that if you are constantly looking for it you will almost certainly constantly find it.
The first proposition I can respect and thoroughly accept. There arent many things that you get offended by. I get that.
B: My question is what is this "class of people" that you're talking about? You believe that there are people out there who are scouring the internet looking for things to get offended by? Not people who are in fact affected by casual racism and sexism on a regular basis and recognize it when they see it?
'cause I gotta say, living 42 years in my skin and dealing with all different types of people all my life? I'd like to think that I can tell when someone is being a racist douche as opposed to someone who has misspoke or who doesn't mean deliberate offense. You seem to be willing to take that ability away (not literally of course) and decide FOR me what I (or anyone else for that matter) should be offended by.
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Look. Whatever. You aren't, quite obviously, going to accept any conclusion but the one you have already reached, so it isn't worth the discussion. When you start textwalling me and telling me what I implied and meant - there really isn't any further point. You can have your 'autowin' button.
Two seperate propositions: a: I tend to be very stingy with gettin seriously offended myself. B: there is a class of people who are perpetually hunting for reasons to be offended. The existance of category B does not in any way imply that there are legitimate reasons to get offended - only that if you are constantly looking for it you will almost certainly constantly find it.The first proposition I can respect and thoroughly accept. There arent many things that you get offended by. I get that.
B: My question is what is this "class of people" that you're talking about? You believe that there are people out there who are scouring the internet looking for things to get offended by? Not people who are in fact affected by casual racism and sexism on a regular basis and recognize it when they see it?
'cause I gotta say, living 42 years in my skin and dealing with all different types of people all my life? I'd like to think that I can tell when someone is being a racist douche as opposed to someone who has misspoke or who doesn't mean deliberate offense. You seem to be willing to take that ability away (not literally of course) and decide FOR me what I (or anyone else for that matter) should be offended by.
Incidentally ... If you are making the distinction then it obviously isnt meant to apply to you - but this bery conversation is an absolutely pitch perfect example of the phenomenon. Why the heck do you presume this is about YOU? Sort of like saying that there exists a coass of people who cut me off in traffic for no reason, and replying by shouting that you migt have a good reason; nindeed you may well. In which case ... Obviously you ain't the subject.
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Also part of the problem with your attitude and statement is the common perception by people who are are racially privilaged in this country that if there isnt obvious, BLATANT racism involved (and it seems that only white people can define what that is...) it's just minorities especially black people whining and complaining for no good reason.
Up until you singled out a particular race with your comment, I was agreeing with you. That was when you crossed the line.
First, let's start with the actual, government-measured statistics... These questions will be "fun."
What race commits the most crimes against African Americans? According to statistics... African Americans.
What race commits the most violent crimes against races other than their own? According to statistics... African Americans.
What race is the most economically-depressed? According to statistics... African Americans.
What race has the highest number of programs directed at it to helping it get out of poverty? According to statistics... African Americans.
What race maintains the lowest education scores across the board? According to statistics... African Americans.
What race has the highest number of programs directed at aiding their education? According to statistics... African Americans.
What race were the desegregation lawsuits and resulting Affirmative Action programs directed at to help erase the educational disparity they suffered? According to history books... African Americans.
What race is it that actually benefited the most from desegregation lawsuits and Affirmative Action programs intended to erase the education disparity? Believe it or not, but I don't have any statistics on this. I found one mention of a study, but the results of that study are not public. Which is incredibly odd... But, then, in the district I went to school in, causcasians were the ones who actually benefited from it. Why? Well, you see, due to the way the court order was worded, in order to prove the school district is not segregating based on race they actually need white people in the classrooms, and the school district is predominantly African American in makeup. This creates the unintended scenario that, in order for a school to get funded, they have to favor picking caucasian students over African Americans. Officially, they're not supposed to... but at the same time, they can't prove they are abiding by the terms of the court order without doing it. So I kinda suspect similar situations in other cities is why I can't find any statistics on this.
Now, what have people I've actually talked to said? Most of the actual civil rights people have said the problem with African Americans is the actual African Americans themselves. Keeping in mind the people saying this are African American, it's kinda eye-opening. But, basically, they blame it on an inherent cultural issue, with the problem being that African American culture has grown into a self-oppressing culture that constantly beats itself down through aspects of the culture that value crime over making an honest living (the rap culture, in particular) and the constant, oppressive feeling of being oppressed that ultimately might be the reason why those statistics that show African Americans constantly falling behind in education despite the massive efforts to help them improve existing.
Given one of the greatest scientific cultures in human history was in Africa and that it took humanity thousands of years to recover the knowledge that was lost by them, I am more than a little saddened by the thought the above is held as true.
The thing I have noticed? The African Americans who make an effort to get their education tend to be extremely intelligent, even if they're only average on education. No matter the background. So it is incredibly sad to see those statistics on education... the United States is potentially losing a lot of its potential brain power to a societal problem that should have been solved long before I was even born. Who knows how many geniuses we have currently sitting in jail cells, thinking life as a gangbanger is the best they can aspire to?
Now, that does not rule out racism. Note the issue of desegregation lawsuits I referenced earlier. That is a case of the same old racism that existed before now existing and enforced by law. And I think Rodney King could give a pretty good lecture on racism in police forces and why racial profiling is a serious problem.
One King is assassinated after giving a speech on a dream and another is used as a pinata by the police... what is it with people hating on that name?
But, then, if we really want to talk about races that are still heavily oppressed... I can name one that would love it if both the African Americans and caucasians would kindly give that group their land back and go back to Africa and Europe.
The problem with racism is that, while it does exist, it's not always so cut and dry as it simply being one race oppressing another. What the statistics and civil rights leaders I've talked to both agree on is that at least some of the problem African Americans have with being oppressed lies with the African Americans themselves. But, then, as I've also highlighted with my example on the desegregation lawsuit, some of the problem isn't on the African American side. How much is on each side and what is on each side is a problem that no one seems to have the solution to, and it seems the issue on both sides is (given the typical Yahoo comments section) only serving to feed and reinforce the entire societal problem.
So, yes, to a degree, it is those races simply whining for no good reason. And to a degree, it's not.
But whining about a single race deciding what racism is when that is not what was being done and talking about racial privilege isn't going to help make things better. It's only going to make people like me, who mostly agree with you, view you as not being a worthy ally and make other people unlikely to take your concerns seriously. Solving the problem means working to make things better, not continuing the same items that Martin Luther King, Jr. fought against among his own race for most of his adult life.
Honestly, sometimes I wonder how many people actually paid attention to what that man said. He gave such a wonderful speech.
Now, no one is saying not to be offended. I'm saying that, if you want people to watch what they say around you, you need to extend the same courtesy. Be mindful of what you say... because it can so easily be used against you on issues like this. That was one of the lessons that King, Jr. tried to teach. Given the amount of success he had, I would have thought more people would have learned the lesson.
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Look. Whatever. You aren't, quite obviously, going to accept any conclusion but the one you have already reached, so it isn't worth the discussion. When you start textwalling me and telling me what I implied and meant - there really isn't any further point. You can have your 'autowin' button.
I could say the same thing about you in regards to conclusion reaching. Still doesn't change the fact that either you could have simply clarified what you meant if I was misreading it, or verified that I was correct in my reading of what you were saying. There is no autowin here. But hey youre right, WHATEVER.
Incidentally ... If you are making the distinction then it obviously isnt meant to apply to you - but this bery conversation is an absolutely pitch perfect example of the phenomenon. Why the heck do you presume this is about YOU? Sort of like saying that there exists a coass of people who cut me off in traffic for no reason, and replying by shouting that you migt have a good reason; nindeed you may well. In which case ... Obviously you ain't the subject.Two seperate propositions: a: I tend to be very stingy with gettin seriously offended myself. B: there is a class of people who are perpetually hunting for reasons to be offended. The existance of category B does not in any way imply that there are legitimate reasons to get offended - only that if you are constantly looking for it you will almost certainly constantly find it.The first proposition I can respect and thoroughly accept. There arent many things that you get offended by. I get that.
B: My question is what is this "class of people" that you're talking about? You believe that there are people out there who are scouring the internet looking for things to get offended by? Not people who are in fact affected by casual racism and sexism on a regular basis and recognize it when they see it?
'cause I gotta say, living 42 years in my skin and dealing with all different types of people all my life? I'd like to think that I can tell when someone is being a racist douche as opposed to someone who has misspoke or who doesn't mean deliberate offense. You seem to be willing to take that ability away (not literally of course) and decide FOR me what I (or anyone else for that matter) should be offended by.
Wait...What?
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I was hoping not to indulge in this derail, but I just couldn't stop myself :(
Emily Post said, "Manners are a sensitive awareness of the feelings of others. If you have that awareness, you have good manners, no matter what fork you use.” I take that to mean that you should try to be empathetic and assume good faith on the part of other people rather than being dogmatic about some script of "rules" about who is allowed to say what and under which circumstances.
Part of good manners is trying not to offend other people, and part of it is forgiving them the slight offenses they inadvertently cause you.
Nobody should be given carte blanche to speak derisively or insultingly, but at the same time you can't go around berating people because they can't read your mind and divine that your cultural expectations differ from their own.
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Up until you singled out a particular race with your comment, I was agreeing with you. That was when you crossed the line.
When I crossed the line... But when bright boy upthread was basically saying that we should give grandma a pass for calling people n%+##~s and that people are just looking to get offended for no good reason I don't remember remember seeing you stepping up to bat then?
So you'll forgive me if I'm not inclined to think that your response isn't necessarily coming from a sincere place.
And to begin your retort with statistics on absolute African American failure? AWESOME. Now I'm pretty sure that everyone who was siding with our guy upthread and are less inclined to think positively about African Americans are shaking their heads in agreement going "See they can't complain. They all do it to themselves". Again, NICE. Because no matter what you say after that? It doesn't matter. You've effectively made your point that WE don't matter.
Again, NICE.
Here's the thing. This isn't the first time I've had these exchanges on a message board and or in real life. And there is one constant. And that is this: It seems that whites in GENERAL pretty much seem to view racism as a non issue. They seem to believe that what ever racism that there is is somehow manufactured by the group that is claiming it. If someone isnt actually wearing a sheet while hanging a negro and setting him on fire? Then how can it be racism? Cant it be something else? Are you sure that you havent misunderstood what was being said? (as if we are children (which in as of itself is another issue, one that I wont address here...)). It's the constant state of denial which is what I'm addressing.
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Now, what have people I've actually talked to said? Most of the actual civil rights people have said the problem with African Americans is the actual African Americans themselves. Keeping in mind the people saying this are African American, it's kinda eye-opening. But, basically, they blame it on an inherent cultural issue, with the problem being that African American culture has grown into a self-oppressing culture that constantly beats itself down through aspects of the culture that value crime over making an honest living (the rap culture, in particular) and the constant, oppressive feeling of being oppressed that ultimately might be the reason why those statistics that show African Americans constantly falling behind in education despite the massive efforts to help them improve existing.
You know what? I've heard all of this same crap from black folk too. Old black folk, young black folk. black folk from the West Indies and the Caribbean. And to blame that one thing for where black people are and their problems is simplistic and STUPID. and anyone who believes that the problem is this shallow is SIMPLISTIC and STUPID. I dont care if theyre black, white, asian, martian, Tiefling or Halfling. STUPID.
I grew up in Bushwick, East Flatbush, and Crown Heights (Brooklyn). I lived across the street from Lefrak Projects in Queens. I've spent alot of time hanging out in the LES before it became a "hip" place to live. All of these places were what I'd call "Bad" areas. The thing is: the implication of blacks are inclined toward a culture of crime is CRAP.
You had a lot of at the time what I'd call working poor or lower middle class people in those neighborhoods. And yes a strong criminal element in quite a few of them. What you also had was a lack of police interest in those neighborhoods as well. You had a police force that didnt give a crap about the working stiffs in those neighborhoods. They only cared about rolling dealers. THAT'S IT. It's not something that would make the news but most who lived in those areas knew the deal.
My mother's neighborhood in Crown Heights was awful. Crime infested and the police did NOTHING. They would be called when there were shots fired and they wouldn't show up for HOURS. The 77th precinct was within 10 min walk from our hood. 10 MINUTES. and these guys would never show up in time enough to help for anything.
But as soon as the neighborhood became gentrified? When more than a few white people moved in? You couldnt keep police off the block. Fairly constant patrols. Quick response (compared to what we used to get).
So again, saying that black people have a predilection to crime and that's our problem? Never mind being just incredibly racist (dont care if white people are saying it or black people are saying it) is also incredibly simplistic and STUPID.
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The thing I have noticed? The African Americans who make an effort to get their education tend to be extremely intelligent, even if they're only average on education. No matter the background. So it is incredibly sad to see those statistics on education... the United States is potentially losing a lot of its potential brain power to a societal problem that should have been solved long before I was even born. Who knows how many geniuses we have currently sitting in jail cells, thinking life as a gangbanger is the best they can aspire to?
One thing that I can honestly say is that most of the "criminals" that I knew growing up we'rent that smart. On the other hand there were a few guys where I was like "If only you used your powers for good..." Smart, clever, cunning guys. Measured success vs. failure. Risk vs. Reward. I knew a guy who sold weed just long enough to be able to open his own barbershop spot. A small space at first and then later on based on the success of the small spot he moved to a bigger space. Last I heard he had two or three of them and sold them about 10 years ago and moved to Atlanta. Young black d00d from Harlem wasnt about to get a bank loan to open a spot...
EDIT: Just one thing I needed to interject here because it's kind of important. Education DOES NOT equal respect. It just doesn't. Not for black people anyway. I have a Undergraduate Degree (4 year), my wife of 14 years has a 4 year undergraduate as well as TWO Masters. I have freinds who have Masters degrees. It doesnt matter. Even with that under your belt youre still going to run into people who are going to assume that because of your skin color you arent as smart as a white guy / girl with similar qualifications. I'd like to say that those people are the exception rather than the rule. But it's the other way around. Which is why when as an employee I find an employer or supervisor who is honestly fair and only cares about the work how it's done? We hold onto those people like GOLD.
But whining about a single race deciding what racism is when that is not what was being done and talking about racial privilege isn't going to help make things better. It's only going to make people like me, who mostly agree with you, view you as not being a worthy ally and make other people unlikely to take your concerns seriously. Solving the problem means working to make things better, not continuing the same items that Martin Luther King, Jr. fought against among his own race for most of his adult life.
Ah so here we come to the crux of the problem.
Stop talking about racism. If you're talking about it then you're the cause of it.
Listen if that's where you're coming from? If you dont see ANY validity in what I'm saying here? Then I dont WANT or NEED you as an ally. If you think that you can go forward without recognizing and /or keeping an eye on whats behind you then you and I approach life completely differently.
Maybe, just maybe, those African Americans you see who've gotten the education tend to be extremely intelligent because the odds of getting a good education are stacked against them and only the really bright ones make it? They have to work harder, be more driven and smarter to start with, just to reach the same spot?
SPOT ON theJeff. SPOT ON.
It's just pretty much accepted that this is the case.
You know, its funny ... But you are awfully presumptuous about what other peoples ethnicities are. I'll leave it at that.
The number of times I've been assumed to be a white American. Lol. They do know there are other people yeah?
Up until you singled out a particular race with your comment, I was agreeing with you. That was when you crossed the line.When I crossed the line... But when bright boy upthread was basically saying that we should give grandma a pass for calling people n&@$+#s and that people are just looking to get offended for no good reason I don't remember remember seeing you stepping up to bat then?
So you'll forgive me if I'm not inclined to think that your response isn't necessarily coming from a sincere place.
And to begin your retort with statistics on absolute African American failure? AWESOME. Now I'm pretty sure that everyone who was siding with our guy upthread and are less inclined to think positively about African Americans are shaking their heads in agreement going "See they can't complain. They all do it to themselves". Again, NICE. Because no matter what you say after that? It doesn't matter. You've effectively made your point that WE don't matter.
Again, NICE.
Here's the thing. This isn't the first time I've had these exchanges on a message board and or in real life. And there is one constant. And that is this: It seems that whites in GENERAL pretty much seem to view racism as a non issue. They seem to believe that what ever racism that there is is somehow manufactured by the group that is claiming it. If someone isnt actually wearing a sheet while hanging a negro and setting him on fire? Then how can it be racism? Cant it be something else? Are you sure that you havent misunderstood what was being said? (as if we are children (which in as of itself is another issue, one that I wont address here...)). It's the constant state of denial which is what I'm addressing.
You don't need to re-program old grandma. It is not your right or your place to police thought.
If she is 80+ and she doesn't want to change, deal with it. People are going to believe things and use language you don't like. Good luck learning to accept this (I really mean it, good luck).
Up until you singled out a particular race with your comment, I was agreeing with you. That was when you crossed the line.When I crossed the line... But when bright boy upthread was basically saying that we should give grandma a pass for calling people n@!*!~s and that people are just looking to get offended for no good reason I don't remember remember seeing you stepping up to bat then?
So you'll forgive me if I'm not inclined to think that your response isn't necessarily coming from a sincere place.
And to begin your retort with statistics on absolute African American failure? AWESOME. Now I'm pretty sure that everyone who was siding with our guy upthread and are less inclined to think positively about African Americans are shaking their heads in agreement going "See they can't complain. They all do it to themselves". Again, NICE. Because no matter what you say after that? It doesn't matter. You've effectively made your point that WE don't matter.
Again, NICE.
Here's the thing. This isn't the first time I've had these exchanges on a message board and or in real life. And there is one constant. And that is this: It seems that whites in GENERAL pretty much seem to view racism as a non issue. They seem to believe that what ever racism that there is is somehow manufactured by the group that is claiming it. If someone isnt actually wearing a sheet while hanging a negro and setting him on fire? Then how can it be racism? Cant it be something else? Are you sure that you havent misunderstood what was being said? (as if we are children (which in as of itself is another issue, one that I wont address here...)). It's the constant state of denial which is what I'm addressing.
I wasn't stepping up to the bat because he didn't say not to get offended for no good reason. He asked the point of getting offended by someone elderly using the term when they've already demonstrated they won't change and are not actively trying to harm someone. I almost called him out for it, but I waited to see more of his argument before I replied. And Thejeff did a better job of addressing it than I would have, so I left it be. Thejeff has taken me to task before on things, so I saw no reason to step on his toes on this when he can handle it just fine.
Besides, if you want to get technical, I could be taking a lot of people to task on this thread for the issue due to my own ancestry. But I don't because I learned over the years that, for the most part, people don't realize and don't know... and it's easier to educate those who will change and let society leave behind those that won't than to constantly fight battles over the issue.
Also, did you stop and read the statistics I pointed out? Particularly the bit where I got into the desegregation lawsuit? And then stop and think how a societal effort to help African Americans that is instead helping caucasians (at least in one area) might affect the education statistics? I don't know about you, but to find out that I don't get a chance at a placement for education just because I've got the wrong skin color would negatively effect my educational performance.
I brought up those statistics for a particular reason... to show the actual cultural disparity and to present the essential problem of discussing the issue. Mainly, how much more complicated it actually is.
You know what? I've heard all of this same crap from black folk too. Old black folk, young black folk. black folk from the West Indies and the Caribbean. And to blame that one thing for where black people are and their problems is simplistic and STUPID. and anyone who believes that the problem is this shallow is SIMPLISTIC and STUPID. I dont care if theyre black, white, asian, martian, Tiefling or Halfling. STUPID.
I grew up in Bushwick, East Flatbush, and Crown Heights (Brooklyn). I lived across the street from Lefrak Projects in Queens. I've spent alot of time hanging out in the LES before it became a "hip" place to live. All of these places were what I'd call "Bad" areas. The thing is: the implication of blacks are inclined toward a culture of crime is CRAP.
You had a lot of at the time what I'd call working poor or lower middle class people in those neighborhoods. And yes a strong criminal element in quite a few of them. What you also had was a lack of police interest in those neighborhoods as well. You had a police force that didnt give a crap about the working stiffs in those neighborhoods. They only cared about rolling dealers. THAT'S IT. It's not something that would make the news but most who lived in those areas knew the deal.
My mother's neighborhood in Crown Heights was awful. Crime infested and the police did NOTHING. They would be called when there were shots fired and they wouldn't show up for HOURS. The 77th precinct was within 10 min walk from our hood. 10 MINUTES. and these guys would never show up in time enough to help for anything.
But as soon as the neighborhood became gentrified? When more than a few white people moved in? You couldnt keep police off the block. Fairly constant patrols. Quick response (compared to what we used to get).
So again, saying that black people have a predilection to crime and that's our problem? Never mind being just incredibly racist (dont care if white people are saying it or black people are saying it) is also incredibly simplistic and STUPID.
I'm not African American. So please forgive me for taking what African American members of the NAACP have to say as being true. But, then, if you look at my post, you'll notice I also acknowledged they are wrong and that societal racism still exists.
I also acknowledged racism within the police forces, specifically when I mentioned Rodney King. I used him in particular because he is a famous example.
And when talking about bringing up that idea of a criminal culture as being racist... keep in mind I was telling you what I have been told by people within the civil rights movement. So it being racist means that some of the very people trying to gain equality for African Americans, and who are African American themselves, are unconsciously racist against African Americans... which, due to how often civil rights groups are part of the community and the one here is very much part of the community, puts the problem with the discrimination against African Americans right into being part of the African American community.
So you calling it racist and crap merely reinforces my point: It's not as simple as you are presenting it. And it's not just white people who are the problem. So don't blame a single racial group when the racism itself is not limited to them; all you do is alienate people who would help you.
Oh, and you're not the only one who's dealt with those rough areas. I know how to look like I'm not worth bothering; I can walk by some of the more violent gangs without even a second glance. Even when they're in the middle of something illegal. It always amazes people that I avoid trouble with those groups so easily.
One thing that I can honestly say is that most of the "criminals" that I knew growing up we'rent that smart. On the other hand there were a few guys where I was like "If only you used your powers for good..." Smart, clever, cunning guys. Measured success vs. failure. Risk vs. Reward. I knew a guy who sold weed just long enough to be able to open his own barbershop spot. A small space at first and then later on based on the success of the small spot he moved to a bigger space. Last I heard he had two or three of them and sold them about 10 years ago and moved to Atlanta. Young black d00d from Harlem wasnt about to get a bank loan to open a spot...
EDIT: Just one thing I needed to interject here because it's kind of important. Education DOES NOT equal respect. It just doesn't. Not for black people anyway. I have a Undergraduate Degree (4 year), my wife of 14 years has a 4 year undergraduate as well as TWO Masters. I have freinds who have Masters degrees. It doesnt matter. Even with that under your belt youre still going to run into people who are going to assume that because of your skin color you arent as smart as a white guy / girl with similar qualifications. I'd like to say that those people are the exception rather than the rule. But it's the other way around. Which is why when as an employee I find an employer or supervisor who is honestly fair and only cares about the work how it's done? We hold onto those people like GOLD.
That falls under the societal racism that remains. And, honestly, what you've said kinda goes in-line with my point about how America is wasting intelligence. I should have mentioned more than just the gangbanger bit, and for that you have my apology.
Ah so here we come to the crux of the problem.
Stop talking about racism. If you're talking about it then you're the cause of it.
Listen if that's where you're coming from? If you dont see ANY validity in what I'm saying here? Then I dont WANT or NEED you as an ally. If you think that you can go forward without recognizing and /or keeping an eye on whats behind you then you and I approach life completely differently.
Where did I say to stop talking about racism?
I criticized one of your comments. And gave you a lot of food for thought on the issue, particularly about how it is not as easy to necessarily tell based on race as to where someone actually stands.
As for me: I'm Cherokee and Blackfoot, in addition to other heritages. History records what my ancestors have gone through. If I kept my eye to the past and what was done with my ancestors, I would be demanding that you give me back the land stolen from my ancestors and leave the continent. Of course, that's also because I, too, am making the mistake of making an assumption about the race of a person I am talking to; I just recognize both that it is an assumption with no data to back it up and that, ultimately, it is a path to sorrow to let one be ruled by events which cannot be changed. So it is either walk forward without looking back, or be constantly held in place by the chains of the past.
Given there's a good chance Native Americans will be extinct as a people by the end of this century, it's pretty obvious that focusing on the past is a foolish decision. And not doing it, I began to realize how many of the current problems people face might be rooted in not letting the past go.
So, please, stop thinking I'm the enemy on this and stop focusing on trying to make me such. Because, like I said, I agreed with most of what you said... I just don't agree with blaming a single race for the mess currently going around. There's too many involved and blaming a single race creates divisions that ultimately may prevent you from accomplishing your goal. But that doesn't mean you stop fighting against racism. It just means you fight against it differently.
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The thing I have noticed? The African Americans who make an effort to get their education tend to be extremely intelligent, even if they're only average on education. No matter the background. So it is incredibly sad to see those statistics on education... the United States is potentially losing a lot of its potential brain power to a societal problem that should have been solved long before I was even born. Who knows how many geniuses we have currently sitting in jail cells, thinking life as a gangbanger is the best they can aspire to?Alright, one small point I can cope with:
Maybe, just maybe, those African Americans you see who've gotten the education tend to be extremely intelligent because the odds of getting a good education are stacked against them and only the really bright ones make it? They have to work harder, be more driven and smarter to start with, just to reach the same spot?
The school district I attended school in is so bad it might not even exist next year. Most of the African Americans I know attended that same district. One of the grade schools I attended was so horrible in quality that the district itself eventually kicked the school out.
I have pretty low standards as to what an average education is. If you can read, write simple sentences, count to ten, and do simple addition and subtraction... you're ahead of where most of my fifth grade class was when the year ended. The principal of the school actually forgot they had an honor roll until I attended. And, no, it wasn't a lack of people applying themselves; the education was just that bad. I learned more from video games about American history than I did in the classroom.
That did not stop most of the class from being generally bright. It just stopped some of them from ever doing well or having a diploma worth the paper it was written on. And prevented a lot from attending college; no point with the grades they had. Still highly intelligent people, though.
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Racism is fun. For example, one of the statistics that people love to point out is that a higher percentage of African American males are in prison for crimes. The same people often don't know that, if I recall correctly, as great or a higher percentage of white males commit the same crimes - they just don't go to prison as often. So it looks like more black people are criminals, but at least in the US, it's simply a case that they're more likely to be sent to prison.
After all, prisons make money, and you gotta keep the cash rolling in.
But, ultimately, it doesn't make much difference in a fantasy game. It was something I was trying to get across in my first post. Modern or medieval values - they really don't work in most fantasy settings.
A fantasy setting may have medieval technology, but the geography, religion and culture are all different. Magic and other races equally alter things.
As a result, most fantasy settings not specifically set in a medieval europe (and an accurate one) should have there own values. Golarion and homosexuality is a good example - we know that the at least three godesses engage in it, and more importantly, they preach tolerance of such things. So far as we know none of the Gods preach that homosexuality is a sin. Therefore, Golarion should have far less prejudice against homosexuality than our medival period. It should actually have less prejudice than our current, modern era - it just doesn't make sense in the setting.
On the other hand, bias against orcs, kobolds, goblins and other usually monstrous and vicious races should happen. It makes sense within the setting, and most people, faced with creatures that usually raid and kill them, will fear, hate and distrust even the exceptions.
As a loose rule, however, I would say modern values should probably make there presence felt more often than medival ones unless there's a good reason in the game. Simply put, while racism, sexism and homophobia can make interesting plot points I know a lot of people deal with that s%&* in real life. I've been told I should die, that my children should die, because I'm bisexual. The person e-mailed in graphic detail about how easy it would be to smash in my door, murder my children as watched and then kill me. Oddly enough, I didn't especially enjoy it, and would like to enjoy my game nights without dealing with the same crap.
End of the day? It's a game, and I'd like to have fun.
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But of course, it's all your problem. It's the people being offended that are at fault and need to learn to deal with it. Not the ones being offensive.
So, first, I just want to clarify that I understand that you are using sarcasm, and your point is actually the opposite.
What you mean:
The people being offensive need to change their behavior.
And that point, I think, most everyone who is here agrees with.
The point that is contentious now is not that Shin is wrong (he was not), so much as one line of argument that he brought up was, in itself, seemingly racist... and thus potentially offensive and harmful to winning people to his cause.
That is all.
Right now, it's mostly a people that are basically on the same side of one issue sabotaging their own side by comments that are taken the wrong way.
I don't think any of us are actually disagreeing here.
I think we're mostly all trying to say the same thing: be polite, don't insult anyone, and if something is insulting, BE POLITE AND STOP DOING IT.
It doesn't matter who you are. It doesn't matter what your background. It doesn't matter who the other person is.
EDIT: deleted three words: one for better flow, and two to... well... be polite.
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As a result, most fantasy settings not specifically set in a medieval europe (and an accurate one) should have there own values. Golarion and homosexuality is a good example - we know that the at least three godesses engage in it, and more importantly, they preach tolerance of such things. So far as we know none of the Gods preach that homosexuality is a sin. Therefore, Golarion should have far less prejudice against homosexuality than our medival period. It should actually have less prejudice than our current, modern era - it just doesn't make sense in the setting.
On the other hand, bias against orcs, kobolds, goblins and other usually monstrous and vicious races should happen. It makes sense within the setting, and most people, faced with creatures that usually raid and kill them, will fear, hate and distrust even the exceptions.
As a loose rule, however, I would say modern values should probably make there presence felt more often than medival ones unless there's a good reason in the game. Simply put, while racism, sexism and homophobia can make interesting plot points I know a lot of people deal with that s+%* in real life. I've been told I should die, that my children should die, because I'm bisexual. The person e-mailed in graphic detail about how easy it would be to smash in my door, murder my children as watched and then kill me. Oddly enough, I didn't especially enjoy it, and would like to enjoy my game nights without dealing with the same crap.
End of the day? It's a game, and I'd like to have fun.
You know, this brings to mind one of the things that I love about Fantasy and Science Fiction in general (and let's not kid ourselves - science fiction is an alternate form of Fantasy, unless it's really Hard Science-style Science Fiction; most "sci-fi" works are a form of Science Fantasy instead).
One of the most basic and important purposes of the genres.
That purpose?
Allowing us to explore difficult, dangerous, and real themes - and produce a form of self-enlightenment - without treading on actual real-world people (even, humorously enough, when it involves real-world people).
It can provide a form of Catharsis and True Justice that is all too often lacking in the real world - that's the heroic fantasy ideal.
I love pointing to Wookies as an excellent example of this.
In real life, you shouldn't get mad and hit people. In Star Wars? We all cheer a little bit when the Wookie goes berserk and slams into the evil Storm Troopers who enslaved them.
Thus we teach ourselves the lesson that Racism is Bad, and Justice will come to those who do Bad Things.
It can also provide a form of Empathy for Sorrow without actually treading on real things.
This can be seen in any of the Cynical works - they're Cynical because people, ultimately, feel disillusioned, and need to feel like someone understands them, which those works do. At the same time, though, those works can point to the Flaws of Humanity and get by the inner defenses of those who have those flaws by putting them in a Fantastical Setting. This disarms the flawed people, and they (subtly) gain enlightenment that those kinds choices are bad and people who make those kinds of choices (not necessarily the exact choice itself) are doing wrong. By getting a reader to side with someone suffering from, say, overbearing attitudes or what-have-you, the Cynical stories moralize those who would otherwise... have overbearing attitudes (as an example).
Of course not all literature is educational or self-enlightening or whatever. Much of it is simple fun fluff.
But sometimes real issues can be explored in fantastic ways - unjust racism against Wookies, say - and thus bypass many hurt feelings that would otherwise arise and help us to learn good things.
That is one of many reasons I love fantasy games and fantasy stories. They're great at helping me overcome my own flaws as a human being.
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End of the day? It's a game, and I'd like to have fun.
Exactly. THIS.
Listen, If I get the hankering to run an mecha anime themed game along the line of Gundam or Z Gundam? I'm gonna use MEKTON to do it. I've done it before, It's worked well for me and it feels right. If the group would rather me use Mechwarrior (which doenst have that anime feel at all unless youre talking Armored Trooper Votoms...) I'll bow out. It's not in line with what I had in mind and feels different tonally. And it's not my idea of fun.
I feel the same way about race and sex in my games. I dont make a big deal out of either. It's more likely that a same sex pairing will come up in my games because I tend to run AP's but it's not something that I beat people over the head with. The couples are simply couples. If theyre bickering and arguing? It's because that's what THIS particular couple does. If theyre all lovey dovey, then that's the trait of this particular couple.
Thanks to Golarion, as GM of Color I feel...Safe? running and adventuring in this world. I dont feel a big deal is made of race or sexuality. It's one of the only game worlds where I feel seeing a black adventurer isn't going to draw stares of "WTF?" And a big part of that is Paizo making sure that it's not an issue by putting a black adventurer front and center. She feels like she belongs. So that means I belong. It means my 12 year old who is starting to show some interests in RPG's belongs.
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And part of being courteous is not taking offense where none is intended.I vehemently disagree with this.
I agree that giving people the benefit of the doubt is a noble thing. But not taking offense just because none is meant is going too far.
My grandmother grew up in the south. She pretty much only uses the "N word" to refer to black people/African Americans. That's pretty danged offensive - and just because batty old Grandma doesn't *mean* to hurt anyone's feelings doesn't just give her a pass.
I'll let just about any slight pass once. After I let a person know, though, that their behavior offends me, further slights will draw my ire.
You see, especially for an older person who has lived their entire life one way I'm giving a pass, especially if they aren't actively hurting anyone. They have lived eighty years or whatever. At that point they are not going to change and by being 'offended' you are accomplishing ... What exactly? Really. What is being accomplished? Being offended just for the sake of being offended is useless. Ire is something that should be saved for situations in which it can be leveraged into something useful. Ire is one of those things that looses effectiveness when you dilute it by pouring it out on every single situation that might somehow offend your sensibilities. You don't have an inherent right to not be offended.
It is a problem when you meet people who go into every conversation actively looking for something to be offended by, who aren't happy unless they are unhappy, or offended.
(Bolded for emphasis) I understand that I don't "have an inherent right not to be offended". I never claimed that right (for someone who gets upset when others describe your intent, you seem to ascribe intent to others readily enough). What your response seems to ignore, or at least dismiss, is that neither you nor anyone else has the right to decide what is offensive to me. I get to decide what I am offended by, and what I want to waste the energy of ire upon.
Honestly, I don't get on grandma's case about this issue precisely because I know that the cost/benefit ratio is too low. But if my wife and I had kids, you'd better believe I'd talk to her about the kind of language she used around those kids. I'd make my offense known. And if she wasn't willing to follow Emily Post's advice on the "sensitive awareness of the feelings of others", she'd lose the opportunity to spend time with her grandchildren.
For a second point, your comment seems to avoid or attempts to change the whole thrust of the comment. I was addressing the fact that offense - and the "validity" of feelings of offense - can be divorced from intent. The probability of "fixing" negative behaviors - especially in the elderly - is a number approaching zero, but giving up because a problem is hard is lazy. For the people of my generation who use the word "gay" to mean "detestable" or "crummy", it is worth my time, my effort, my indignation to address their statements regardless of whether they "meant" to offend. It may not be worth yours. Awesome, more power to you. You can be passive. I can be aggressive. It takes all kinds.
Hmmm. I'm more interested in exploring other worlds though.
I mean I am in this world all the time.
Exploring ourselves? Yeah, but what about exploring not our self?
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Even fantasy worlds are mirrors of this one, even if they are shadowed.
Literature, even fantasy and sci-fi literature (and I include films in literature) explore what it is to be human. Maybe they explore what it is to be human by exploring what it is to be a 8 foot tall blue dude with a tail living atop deposits of unobtainium, but that is still an exploration of us, and our values, and how we see things.
I mean, I suppose it could be possible to play PF in a world completely alien from ours. Completely different, and different in such fundamental ways as to make comprehending them nigh impossible. I've never personally seen it, but it could happen.
End of the day? It's a game, and I'd like to have fun.
I think every single one of us agrees on this. And that we each are, ultimately, out to have fun.
Awesome stuff
You said it perfectly!
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Inclusiveness, a lack of universal sexism/racism, modern morality, and so on don't make something "not fantasy" at all.Different people want different things out of the game. There's not going to be a solid answer to "what should be in the game" beyond "what you want out of it".
Really? Please point out some books or movies that are considered classics by folks that include anything you just listed.
That's not to say YOUR game cant be any of he things listed, but most stories and movies reall didn't have any modern itsms in them.
Really? Please point out some books or movies that are considered classics by folks that include anything you just listed.
That's not to say YOUR game cant be any of he things listed, but most stories and movies reall didn't have any modern itsms in them.
Perhaps they had modernism that were according to the times they were written. Perhaps the writers didn't shy away from including the appropriate views of their own time periods in their work.
Should GM allow, encourage or enforce thinking, which is different from our modern values and standards?
Or should GM stop a good aligmented character from having slaves, murdering opponents in random encounters or stealing from fallen enemies as they are viewed evil acts in modern culture?
In a setting where there are beings literally composed of the essence of goodness and these beings can be directly communicated and even summoned or called forth into the world, I would not be surprised if the morality would look entirely different from historical settings and even many fairy tales.
"Being gay is evil!""Really?" *summons an angel* "Is being gay evil?"
"No. But oppressing people is." *looks menacing at first speaker*
Hmmm. I'm more interested in exploring other worlds though.
I mean I am in this world all the time.
Exploring ourselves? Yeah, but what about exploring not our self?
Are you under the impression that people are demanding that you change your game?
Even fantasy worlds are mirrors of this one, even if they are shadowed.
Literature, even fantasy and sci-fi literature (and I include films in literature) explore what it is to be human. Maybe they explore what it is to be human by exploring what it is to be a 8 foot tall blue dude with a tail living atop deposits of unobtainium, but that is still an exploration of us, and our values, and how we see things.
I mean, I suppose it could be possible to play PF in a world completely alien from ours. Completely different, and different in such fundamental ways as to make comprehending them nigh impossible. I've never personally seen it, but it could happen.
Sounds good, but mine aren't mirrors of this one. Especially not mirrors of this one now. Copy-pasting would be laziness (especially when I am doing the designing).
Summoner: is being gay evil?
Angel: you humans disgust me, always with the sex questions. I'm going to flamestrike until I feel clean again.
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Summoner: is being gay evil?
Angel: you humans disgust me, always with the sex questions. I'm going to flamestrike until I feel clean again.
Why would an angel even care? I think you are foisting human opinions on non-human (and possibly non-gendered) beings.
Why would an angel even care? I think you are foisting human opinions on non-human (and possibly non-gendered) beings.Summoner: is being gay evil?
Angel: you humans disgust me, always with the sex questions. I'm going to flamestrike until I feel clean again.
Nope. Imagine you are a celestial being, one with the great cosmic good, and humans keep summoning you to ask you which sexuality is the right one/okay/what is it alright to do to each other sexually. That is going to get weird fast, then annoying, then pathetic, then infuriating.
Flamestrike would only be a matter of time.
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Why would an angel even care? I think you are foisting human opinions on non-human (and possibly non-gendered) beings.Summoner: is being gay evil?
Angel: you humans disgust me, always with the sex questions. I'm going to flamestrike until I feel clean again.
Nope. Imagine you are a celestial being, one with the great cosmic good, and humans keep summoning you to ask you which sexuality is the right one/okay/what is it alright to do to each other sexually. That is going to get weird fast, then annoying, then pathetic, then infuriating.
Flamestrike would only be a matter of time.
Ah, well. I always imagine angels, like bodhisttvas, having having a great deal of patience. It helps with children, hence it it's essential with mortals.
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Why would an angel even care? I think you are foisting human opinions on non-human (and possibly non-gendered) beings.Summoner: is being gay evil?
Angel: you humans disgust me, always with the sex questions. I'm going to flamestrike until I feel clean again.
Nope. Imagine you are a celestial being, one with the great cosmic good, and humans keep summoning you to ask you which sexuality is the right one/okay/what is it alright to do to each other sexually. That is going to get weird fast, then annoying, then pathetic, then infuriating.
Flamestrike would only be a matter of time.
Nah.
That's when the angel uses Geas on both of them to have them explain why bothering a divine messenger is a bad idea in the middle of town square while acting like chickens.
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Sounds good, but mine aren't mirrors of this one. Especially not mirrors of this one now. Copy-pasting would be laziness (especially when I am doing the designing).Even fantasy worlds are mirrors of this one, even if they are shadowed.
Literature, even fantasy and sci-fi literature (and I include films in literature) explore what it is to be human. Maybe they explore what it is to be human by exploring what it is to be a 8 foot tall blue dude with a tail living atop deposits of unobtainium, but that is still an exploration of us, and our values, and how we see things.
I mean, I suppose it could be possible to play PF in a world completely alien from ours. Completely different, and different in such fundamental ways as to make comprehending them nigh impossible. I've never personally seen it, but it could happen.
I feel I was clear, when I used the term mirror, that it was imagery, as opposed to literally a mirror of our world, but to ensure we aren't talking past each other, I'll make it clearer.
When you say "mine aren't mirrors of this one", especially when mirror is used the way I used it in my statement, do you actually mean that your worlds bear no similarities to our actual world?
Do your humans feel joy and sorrow? Do they mourn their dead and exalt their heroes? Do their heroes suffer tragedies of hubris, or indolence, or wrath? Do they use shiny bits of rock and metal as currency? Do they grow jealous of each other? Do they war with one another? Are their wars -if they war- sometimes just, and sometimes unjust? Do they feel shame? Do they feel pride?
Is their gravity something like our gravity? Are their seas like our seas? Is their architecture like our architecture? Do they walk, like us, under the pale light of the moon and wonder about their place in their universe?
I suppose that maybe the answer to all of these questions could be no. But if so, how do your players understand things? How do they care about your plots?
Lovecraft was pretty much a master of writing about things alien - truly alien, not Star Trek alien - but even he was left, when it came right down to it, with a lot of hemming and hawing, demurring, telling the reader, essentially: "No guys, this thing is so different, it would shatter your fragile little ape descended brain to even see it."
That's what I mean by fantasy worlds are a mirror of ours. Elric's Melnibone was our world, through a crystal darkly. Middle-Earth was our world. John Carpenter's Mars was our world. Earthsea and Shannara and the Star Wars Universe and Randland and 1000 others besides all tell something of the story of what it is to be a person. What it means to be human. Are you saying that your worlds don't?
If so, I'm incredulous, and would love to see some of your writing.
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So you are trying to say, that John Carpenter's Mars is Earth 2014? "John Carpenter's Mars was our world." It seems you are, which is a demonstrably false claim. Fantasy Mars is not Earth now.
I get what you are trying to say (and pull) and that by going as broad brush strokes as possible, and humans being involved you are trying to say fantasy worlds are mirrors of our own. It is b$!++&%s. Simple and utter b*!*&#%s. Middle-Earth is not our world either.
Imagined constructions in part influenced by our world is not the same as being our world. You try to say mirror, I prefer to discuss influences without claiming mirrors.
Which brings us right back round to modern values. If a setting is not our (post)modernity, why would it have our modern values? I don't think it makes much sense other than providing comfort and not pushing too much difference. Difference after all can be scary, better make it not so different to now. Fantasy can be more concerned with excitement and difference than being the same old same old transplanted into a game.
It also bears mentioning that America is not in my fantasy games. So modern American values don't have much place nor will I throw them in for extra blandness in a setting that could be so much more.
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So you are trying to say, that John Carpenter's Mars is Earth 2014? "John Carpenter's Mars was our world." It seems you are, which is a demonstrably false claim. Fantasy Mars is not Earth now.
While the setting might not match Earth values current, it doesn't mean it wasn't written with a modern values. It just happens that the "modern" of its time was ... the time period it was written in.
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So you are trying to say, that John Carpenter's Mars is Earth 2014? "John Carpenter's Mars was our world." It seems you are, which is a demonstrably false claim. Fantasy Mars is not Earth now.
I get what you are trying to say (and pull) and that by going as broad brush strokes as possible, and humans being involved you are trying to say fantasy worlds are mirrors of our own. It is b+*##!*s. Simple and utter b$+#~!@s. Middle-Earth is not our world either.
Imagined constructions in part influenced by our world is not the same as being our world. You try to say mirror, I prefer to discuss influences without claiming mirrors.
Which brings us right back round to modern values. If a setting is not our (post)modernity, why would it have our modern values? I don't think it makes much sense other than providing comfort and not pushing too much difference. Difference after all can be scary, better make it not so different to now. Fantasy can be more concerned with excitement and difference than being the same old same old transplanted into a game.
It also bears mentioning that America is not in my fantasy games. So modern American values don't have much place nor will I throw them in for extra blandness in a setting that could be so much more.
He's saying that regardless of your attempts to not have your own personal experience influence your campaign world, your own personal experience influences your campaign world.
If you present a campaign world based on medieval values, you're actually presenting a campaign world based on your interpretation of medieval values, because not being a person from that era, your values will never be perfectly in sync with those of that era.
The study of the study of history tells us that modern values directly impacts how we view the past. Often times, analyzing how people interpret the past tells us just as much about the era that that person is in.
One of the clearest examples from American history is John Brown, the abolitionist who led an armed insurrection at Harper's Ferry. At various points in history the tendency has been to either label him as a forward thinking hero, or a man suffering from a mental disease. The prevalence of which is more popular being determined by the state of race relations in the US at that time.
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Personally, I thought the first John Carter book was particularly dripping with white man's burden. So, no, not our world in 2014, but not too far off from our world in 1914...
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I wonder how many of you have read the books that John Carter of Mars was based on? Aside from Anklebiter, I mean.
The books were written around 1914. In fact, the book the movie is based on was written in 1911. And were placed just after the Civil War, when white man's burden was at its highest prevalence in thought (no, seriously, it was; that's why some of the generals who thought slavery was wrong fought for the South anyway). And written from the viewpoint of a Confederate soldier.
Yeah, John Carter fought to preserve slavery. That's only one of several ways he was most definitely not a nice guy before the reader meets him.
In general, Edgar Rice Burroughs made no efforts to describe John Carter as being anything other than racist (in fact, he makes a special point of bringing up Carter's racist views at a few points). On the other hand, being tossed into a situation where he's stuck on a dying planet that is slowly running out of oxygen and in a situation where tribal warfare is the rule of the day... Well, Carter learns the hard way that different skin color doesn't mean lesser. And that the biggest enemy can have white skin.
Yeah, the books were massively, massively better than the movie. And, if anything, they are probably one of the greatest stealth messages about racial issues that you can find. They have their own unintended racist undertones... but for a book series started in 1911, they are amazingly progressive.
Those books are also a great source to draw on when writing a fantasy game where racial issues are the plot.