I'm strongly considering the multiclass on a low level. Certainly with my domains of Luck/Trickery I won't likely switch over to Bard for good (at least until 6th or 8th Cleric). Starting play as a level 1 Cleric (above average stats, Str15 Dex16 Con13 Int 16 Wis15 Cha17) Party composition is Dancing Combat Rogue, Strong Sorc, Buff as a Demi-God crazy dex glass cannon Ranger, and me...half-elf Minstrel Cleric of Olidammara and Rudd (figure it wouldn't hurt since she IS a subbordinant deity and her favored weapons are Rapier and Shortbow, so I can get that shortbow proficiency- I like multi-deity faithful devotions, while it might smack of cherry picking I think it fits the character as partly a hopeless romantic artist and driven dastardly ne'er do well).
Personally I'm digging the crossover artist minstrel and vagabond cleric motifs, with "Academy Graduate" as a bonus feat and a decent Int, it might work out well being a Bard Cleric as far as extra knowledge skills and performance (HIGH Cha, Skill focus for Singing likely- though I was partial to Bluff).
Some problems going pure cleric, even with a +3 int and favored class bonus, 6 skill points is painfully small for a skill heavy concept, I'm fine being bad at some things, to hit included, but I've read enough that multiclassing a bard character isn't worthwhile by much, but can my Cleric benefit? Tossing around the relatively ill-advised Mystic Theurge prc, which seems tempting- could be a trap (but for spell levels in both classes, might be worth a dip) but more than likely this will be a straight Multiclass build, heavy on the cleric until 10th level or so. Current plan, which I'm hoping gets critiqued:
Aiming for at least 4 levels of Divine spells, at what point should I start multi-classing into Bard? I'm considering it for my next level for skills, proficiencies and flavor and game-play enhancing abilities.
Considering 2ndLvl Clr1/Bard1 3rd-7th Clr2-6 8th Bard2 then alternate to get Clr7-8 Bard 3-7/8-9, capping with Cleric or Mystic Theurge prestige (possibly earlier). Wish it was gestalt. Oh well. Please help. I'm not sure if the AP goes to 20, and typically waiting long times sounds less fun for some abilities. So advice there. What are the essentials to make a bard enhanced Cleric? Cleric, to me, has a minimum investment of 8 levels to really get those Domain goodies. Feels like Bard is built similarly... With the like minimum less level dependent stuff coming in by 6th (while I like the idea of Dirge of Doom, 7th level seems to me to be the likely cap) :/
I want to be a happy Olidammara Minstrel Cleric!
Feels like of all Clerics, Olidammara clergy would have some multi-class bards. I might still reconsider my free Multi-class in a Rogue dip, but not really my cup of tea, worth it for the skill points and ease of damage upgrade I guess.
Thoughts? I think I can manage in an weirdly overpowered party that isn't highly optimized in this AP (no spoilers please, I've had enough already). How would you weirder ones do it? And for fun and profit please.
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Clerics are good at many things. They can be mighty warriors, powerful spell casters, and merciful healers. Sometimes all three at once. Clerics will never be good at skills. Best just accept that, and let someone else be good at skills. Clerics already have an embarrassment of riches.
Have you considered the Evangelist archetype? It's the lovechild of a Bard and a Cleric. It sounds like a perfect thematic fit for your minstrel cleric.
An Evangelist Inspires Courage, aka Bardsong, as a Bard of the same level. The Evangelist loses out on Medium Armor, one Domain, and about 40% of channel power. In exchange, it is the best buffer in the game, can be a very competent warrior, and can be a powerful summoner. Since all your allies do combat damage, they will all benefit greatly from Inspire Courage. Inspire Courage stacks with all your good Cleric buffs, sometimes with synergy.
Your GM may allow you to add the Evangelist archetype after first level. Ask politely, since a strict rules lawyer might deny it.
If you can avoid multi-classing you will get 4th level spells sooner, for the win.
Full casters almost never dip well unfortunately, and clerics suck at skills, even with a dip. Ideally if you want a divine caster who's a skill monky too, you want an oracle or an inquisitor, but never a cleric or a paladin. 2+ skillpoints and MAD for everything but intellect stings.
Edit: In 3.5 I think there was a cleric/bard hybrid PrC. Might've been the Fochlucan Lyrist, or something like that.
Full casters almost never dip well unfortunately, and clerics suck at skills, even with a dip. Ideally if you want a divine caster who's a skill monky too, you want an oracle or an inquisitor, but never a cleric or a paladin. 2+ skillpoints and MAD for everything but intellect stings.
Edit: In 3.5 I think there was a cleric/bard hybrid PrC. Might've been the Fochlucan Lyrist, or something like that.
Sad to say the Fochlucan Lyrist was BEST done with a Druid and is way crazy hard to get into anyway. Wouldn't be an option I'd take...
I am looking at Lore Master, Pathfinder Chronicler, Mystic Theurge and even Duelist as possible PrCs (The last if it seems the group needs more BAB and I qualify by then). Advise on that would help. Still considering a Rogue dip at least. Nice to see that Lore Master and Pathfiner Chronicler both have Bardic Knowledge like abilities that would stack- if I WAS a true Bard those would be really fun, but not bummed that if I went both they would stack with each other in that regard.
A Rogue dip would make my skill points go up by 13 each level I'd take, I'd just have to take Rogue as my second Multiclass. Considering it, though not super favorable, the character feels roguish enough to warrant it, but I don't feel like a CLERIC of Olidammara NEEDS to be either a Bard or a Rogue to FEEL Roguish and like a Minstrel (even if not the best one).
Archetypes are pretty much out since the DM is preferring to go PF Core (why my prestige options are all Core Rule Book too).
In any case, I am looking forward to the campaign and will not be switching out of Cleric lvl 1 for sure. Gotta get at least 6 or 8 on it though for those domain powers. So 2 level dip before PRC dedication or multiclass adherence is an option I wouldn't take off the table. I'm fine not being the heaviest of casters, but some later Luck and Trickery spell aren't bad, and of course Clerics just get better, still I think I am fine with an 8th level Cleric before PrC spell levels at least.
Trickery Domain clerics, fyi Get a nice set of rogue skills as class skills. When I add a bonus feat, "Academy Graduate," from Savage Tides giving me MORE class skills in CHA and INT my high CHA/INT character gets more interesting, but yes that lack of skill points is starting to hurt, having great stats only will bring up those checks so high, getting bardic knowledge or a lore type power might help with the KNOWLEDGE checks I feel reluctant to pump up with SP. As it is I have all the class skills I need just about (Sleight of hand actually being one of the few trained only I don't have access to already). (I might still ask about evangelist, though losing Luck would suck, the domain powers and spells for Trickery just about make up for it).
After cosplaying, yes I did this for a character portrait photo shoot, I get the feeling that the character really is a roguish cleric trying to start a career as a Minstrel/Bard, and not really being dedicated enough to the profession of Minstrel itself so much as his faith in Olidammara and Rudd (possibly also Kuroth) and his expression of those beliefs and instincts. He is, as I like to call him, a vagabond cleric and born and raised minstrel.
The Seekers seem to be a good association to go Lore Master OR Pathfinder Chronicler for, so any thoughts on that specifically would be appreciated. The rogue dip is haunting me.
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You seem very intent on having good skills. If so, Cleric is the wrong class for you. Inquisitor sounds like a much better fit. Inquisitor can be sort of a rogue/cleric combination. You can still be a minstrel.
If you do decide on a Cleric, or any other full caster, don't multi-class. It will seem like a cool idea at the time, but you will regret it later.
I just want to say, the Savage Tide CP is my favorite of all. You are going to need a strong cleric for the campaign. Definitely go with the Evangelist cleric or consider the Inquisitor. Have fun riding the Savage Tide!
I just want to say, the Savage Tide CP is my favorite of all. You are going to need a strong cleric for the campaign. Definitely go with the Evangelist cleric or consider the Inquisitor. Have fun riding the Savage Tide!
Thanks. I am looking forward to it myself and it should be a lot of fun.
Since I will most likely be limited to the Core Rulebook (this is a first time PF game for half the party and we want fairness and lots of Role Playing, maybe that's my goal, but I know my experienced PF friend enjoys it as well.) So archetypes and likely the inquisitor are straight out (also, not really the character's style). I'll have to be picky, but I'll try to stay cleric and not throw away a level. if I dip, I'd like to minimize the damage. I am only level 1, considering I will be utilizing class skills almost entirely from here on out, it shouldn't be much of a stretch to say I'll focus on the essential gameplay, role play and mostly Cleric essentials. Still, I'll have a hard time resisting a skill point infusion at 2nd or later for Rogue or maybe a decent PRC. To be fair, we haven't started playing yet, so there's room to figure out where the character is going and where things fit in the party composition. I'm not looking for highly optimized, but I am looking for flexible and not overly wasteful. I will take caster levels.
To respond directly to Magda for a moment. I probably would have played a Bard, but I niced my way into Cleric and my friend took up the Arcana mantle. Besides a Cleric of Olidmarra is better than a bard just about.
Normally, no, I wouldn't expect to have a skill heavy Cleric. I like clerics and they don't need a lot of skills (hell, buffing can make me good enough at some skills that I won't need to dump rank after rank into non-survival/non-face based skills).
My skill goals are High Bluff with a paired up Sense Motive. Increasingly better Diplomacy and Intimidate, a situational sleight of hand and respectable to above average Knowledge Religion and Planes. Apart from learning how to swim, climb and acrobat better, I don't need much else that I can't build up with as the levels go on.
Overall,
I appreciate the advice and I will run some ideas by the GM about archetypes, The GM is also a first timer at PF, though I reckon he knows the Savage Tide well enough to tell a good story.
Likely this will not be a TPK waiting to happen scenario, at least not if we add a 5th player. I already managed to talk him into that extra district feat, so I don't want to press my luck further (also recommended the APG). We simply have to keep it simple.
If there is a way to maintain my spell list with PrCs (a decision to be made later in the game anyway, just the prereqs have to be decently meshing with things) I might go it. Leaning more Lore Master, as tempting as Chronicler was on first lookover, losing ALL further spell progression is pretty suck, it may come with reasonably cool abilities, but it is silly and a waste of 10 skill ranks to go that way without spell levels (again, as Treantmonk stated "Bards really are the sum of their parts," and Pathfinder Chronicler feels the same, plus benefits most from Bard.
I don't mind multiclassing for free for a dip, but I'm not going to go Bard like I had hoped before crunching numbers, it wouldn't work well enough, though spell progression for both arcane and divine is probably more tempting than it is worth (cleric hits stride and doesn't change up much after 8th apart from keeping up the channel. While arcane magic will be for sure the domain of the Sorc, I do feel that I'll be shouldering most of the divine magical power. So...yeah. May need to to not miss much there. We will have a Rogue in the party, but she may well multi-class or focus on getting into Shadowdancer. I might have been better starting off as a Rogue as far as Skill points, but I like that I don't have to do that in PF. If I want to add some more Rogue flair to my Cleric, I can. I don't feel compelled to level up just to increase my channel die- if it helps my domain powers enough, I will, but really- the cleric is straight forward and stable, and I want something a little more weird.
Olidammara would want me to enjoy the game in any case! ;D I
Lol you don't need much....just 10 skills :)If you play a human and take every favored bonus as a skill bonus you are looking at a mighty 7skill points per level (3 for int, 2 for class, 1 for human and 1 for favored) For the most part it sounds like bluff and sense motive are your main skills so every level you bring them up that leaves you roughly 5 skill points over 8 skills, just prioritize what is most important and then rotate the ones that aren't for example one level you put the point in swim and the next into climb