I have searched the messageboards and not found anything that covers my exact rule question here. If it has please direct me there.
This is a little graphic and I apologize but the situation has come up in a game and I know it will come up again as a tactic by the party.
When a caster puts a foe to sleep, such as via Sleep or Deep Slumber, can that caster, or anyone, then choke the sleeping foe? If so what is the result?
Sleep, et al., says that the target is rendered "helpless."
Under the Suffocation rules it states what happens when someone has no air to breathe:
"A character who has no air to breathe can hold her breath for 2 rounds per point of Constitution. If a character takes a standard or full-round action, the remaining duration that the character can hold her breath is reduced by 1 round. After this period of time, the character must make a DC 10 Constitution check in order to continue holding her breath. The check must be repeated each round, with the DC increasing by +1 for each previous success.
When the character fails one of these Constitution checks, she begins to suffocate. In the first round, she falls unconscious (0 hit points). In the following round, she drops to –1 hit points and is dying. In the third round, she suffocates."
Under the Drowning rules it says, "Unconscious characters must begin making Constitution checks immediately upon being submerged (or upon becoming unconscious if the character was conscious when submerged). Once she fails one of these checks, she immediately drops to –1 (or loses 1 additional hit point, if her total is below –1). On the following round, she drowns."
The idea that is being asked of me, and that I in turn am asking the community for direction, is that the caster can cast the Sleep spell and then the following round begin to choke one of the victims. My thought was that would cause the victim to wake up, but I was countered with the idea that they were unconscious so the drowning rules ought to apply and that victim would begin to make the Constitution checks right away and if they failed would be at -1 Hit Points. The following round the caster could continue to choke the victim and they would be dead.
The thought is that a caster may not be able to even Coup de Grace a sleeping foe with enough damage to kill them or make them fail the saving throw so this is the alternative to try and get the foe to fail a Constitution check. With a spell and then a few rounds of work, the caster could at least insure that the sleeping foes are at -1 Hit Points, fully unconscious, and dying which is better than full Hit Points and just sleeping with the ability to be awakened.
My issue with the whole thing, besides being a little nasty, is that they are not actually "unconscious" just "helpless" per the spell description of Sleep. That may be splitting hairs a bit, but I thought I would throw it out there for discussion. I do think that this action should draw attacks of opportunity and, if the foe were revived or made their first Constitution check, then they would be in the middle of a grapple with the caster at the grappler but that would probably not last long depending on the foe.
I know it seems easier just to Coup de Grace the foe but with higher level spells like Deep Slumber that becomes dicey for the caster to be able to put a foe down with a Coup de Grace. My thought was to just let of the beefy fighters do the dirty work for you. This is, however, a pirate campaign so I can see how it would be nice for the caster to seem ruthless and cutthroat and take out his own victims, etc.
Thoughts?
The idea that is being asked of me, and that I in turn am asking the community for direction, is that the caster can cast the Sleep spell and then the following round begin to choke one of the victims. My thought was that would cause the victim to wake up, but I was countered with the idea that they were unconscious so the drowning rules ought to apply ...
Why should the drowning rules apply?
Death due to drowning is usually caused by water in the lungs, which not only prevents the victim from breathing, but also prevents them from being able to absorb the oxygen from teh air that's already in their lungs. That's the difference between being underwater (but holding your breath) and falling into water unconscious.
Thoughts?
I think you made the right call initially. When you start to choke the victim, he has to hold his breath; when he runs out of air, he starts to suffocate.
There's even a specific weapon -- the garrote -- that works according to these rules.
Description: In order for you to use a garrote, your opponent must be helpless or unaware of you. You must make a grapple check (though you avoid the –4 penalty for not having two hands free) to successfully begin garroting your opponent. Sneak attack damage does not apply to a garrote. Your garroted opponent must make a concentration check (DC 20 + your CMB + level of the spell he’s casting) to cast a spell with a verbal component, use a command word item, or use any magic requiring speech. You gain the following additional option when grappling with a garrote.Choke: You cut off your target’s air supply so he has to hold his breath (see Suffocation, and the Swim skill for additional information). Any round you do not maintain the choke, your opponent can take a breath and restart when he has to begin making Constitution checks.
What you're describing is more or less a garrote attack. I can't imagine you doing any better using any other weapon on a helpless opponent than this.
I agree with you.
I think the Drowning rules were brought up just as a means of showing what happens when you are unconscious and begin to suffocate, not that the conditions were the same, just the rules.
I think using the garrote rules are great. I did not reference the D20PFSRD in my search and stuck just to the PRD. Thanks!
The RL mechanic of choking somone to death is deliberately difficult in the game. Its either relegated to high level spells or specific weapons like the Garrot.
So If you have put an opponent to sleep and you want to kill them what do you do?. You use Coup de grace. You dont need to fiddle with new mechanics or applying other aspects of the that sort of fit.
it looks like as stated abve though the garrot rules cover stuff like grappling somoeone.
I've used this mechanic, with the Witch's Slumber Hex and the Undine's Curse spell as a combo, but that second spell is pretty specific to the situation.
I cannot imagine, however, that choking the life out of someone wouldn't wake them up.
Yeah, choking someone would wake them up pretty instantly unless there was powerful magic that allowed you to put someone to sleep and kept them asleep if they are injured. I would count choking as injury.
Sorry about your witches luck, but they just need to make it a team effort. The witch uses slumber a fellow melee characters use a CdG.
Coup de grace is what the wiz intended. Wakeing his victem by chokeing is what he did.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Instead of choking why not just cover their face with a pillow? It shouldn't trigger any damage so it shouldn't wake them up.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
So instead of choking them you asphixiate them?
YES! WE HAVE no BANANAS!
also I am slightly unsettled by the fact that I knew how to spell 'asphixiate' without looking it up
I think the OP's difficulty here lies with the spell saying the victim is "helpless". The spell says he's only helpless until he's slapped or wounded. Choking is neither, so technically, by RAW, choking him shouldn't wake him up.
But, we can apply a little common sense here and realize that the text of the spell didn't cover, or even try to cover, EVERY possible action that might awaken the victim; just a couple common actions. With that assumption, it's very easy to consider anything that requires a saving throw to be "wounding", at least by a liberal interpretation of "wounding" to mean "causing harm".
Given that assumption, it might even be plausible to assume the victim does not wake up until he makes his first constitution check. Until then, he's "helpless" enough to not notice his airway being gently constricted because it doesn't actually "slap" or "wound" the victim. But once he makes a CON check, he's now being harmed which is clearly close enough to the definition of "wounded" to assume he wakes up then.
At that point, let the grappling commence!
I suggest that the character in question might want to look into a garrote so he can use CMB to choke his victim.
I also suggest that he probably can tie up the magically sleeping victim before he begins choking him. Heck, he's apparently at least 7th level so he gets at least 7 minutes, that should be time enough to mummify the victim with ropes, or at least bind his hands and feet (use masterwork shackles for added certainty) and then use a gag, preferably a ball gag, to ensure they cannot scream or cast spells with verbal component, then slip the garrote around their neck and start ticking off the rounds until they reach double their CON score, then they wake up, bound, gagged, helpless, and suffocating. Seems like it could work.
Once the guy is dead, take the ropes, gags, shackles, and garrote with him when he sneaks away. Medieval investigators probably won't have any clue as to how the victim died. "Gosh, I guess he just died in his sleep..."
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The ligature marks are usually a dead giveaway.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The ligature marks are usually a dead giveaway.
"dead" giveaway
between that and your avatar, I have the urge to scream,
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Lamontius, I hate to disappoint you, but it's spelled "asphyxiate".
And, yes, RAW, suffocation wouldn't wake him. It'd be a quite reasonable houserule, though.
...so I'm not a creeper? WOOOOOOO!
Wait, did you look it up Ipslore?
*backs slowly away*
...I...there...isn't any candy in that van, is there?