Bloodrager / DD For PFS

[Verzen]

Since there is no rules clarification as yet for bloodrager and DD... If I wanted to make one, could I do the Abyssal Bloodrager and DD or would it have to be Draconic?

[BigNorseWolf]

Since the linnorm bloodline wasn't close enough to be a dragon disciple for PFS, I think its pretty likely you need the draconic bloodrager.

[Verzen]

Yeah but the bloodrager isn't a sorc.. technically.

[BigNorseWolf]

Verzen wrote:

Yeah but the bloodrager isn't a sorc.. technically.

The new hybrid classes generally count as their base classes.

Unless you get the go ahead from on high I would not try to build a character around a based of "technically".

[SCPRedMage]

BigNorseWolf wrote:

The new hybrid classes generally count as their base classes.

Yeah... no. Trust me, I've looked the document over thoroughly, and I've read the official updates, and no where does anything say anything about hybrid classes actually counting as the classes they're based on*. If there were, the level four swashbuckler bonus feat feature wouldn't need to state that swashbuckler levels count as fighter levels for combat feat prerequisites.

With the linnorm bloodline, we were talking actual sorcerer bloodlines; the bloodrager gets its own, unique, bloodlines to choose from. The class feature is clearly based on the sorcerer class feature, and the individual bloodlines clearly based on the original sorcerer bloodlines, but the class feature is its own separate rules item.

The restriction we're discussing is from the dragon disciple prereqs:

Dragon Disciple Prerequisites wrote:

Spellcasting: Ability to cast 1st-level arcane spells without preparation. If the character has sorcerer levels, he must have the draconic bloodline. If the character gains levels of sorcerer after taking this class, he must take the draconic bloodline.

Not that the restriction only applies if you have sorcerer levels, and in this case, you do not.

RAW, bloodrager/dragon disciples do NOT need to take the draconic bloodrager bloodline. There IS no RAI, as they clearly didn't take dragon disciple into consideration when making these rules, but I'm pretty sure RATWHBI (rules as they would have been intended) would be that they DO need to take it.

So... yeah, until there's any update to change things, bloodrager/dragon disciples in PFS do NOT have to take the draconic bloodrager bloodline, but taking another one is a Cheasy Loophole that should be CLEARLY unintentional, meaning taking advantage of this would be The Wrong Thing To Do(tm), so you can expect to NOT be given a rebuild once the loophole gets closed, as per the Mysterious Pistolero Incident.

* Spoiler:

Although perhaps they SHOULD, to prevent things like swashbuckler needing that special clause, not to mention the interesting situation wherein they have deeds that explicitly call out Signature Deed as not working on them, while a straight swashbuckler wouldn't qualify for that feat on account of it requiring gunslinger level 11...

[Verzen]

Mysterious Pistolero incident?

[Verzen]

My problem with requiring the draconic bloodline for bloodrager is that everything the draconic bloodline provides, the DD also provides, making a huge portion of the bloodrager simply... useless.

[BigNorseWolf]

SCPRedMage wrote:

Yeah... no. Trust me, I've looked the document over thoroughly, and I've read the official updates, and no where does anything say anything about hybrid classes actually counting as the classes they're based on*

The blood rager counts as having rage

The brawler counts as both monk and fighter levels
The swashbuckler counts as fighter levels.
Penache counts as grit.

And most importantly, The blood rager has a bloodline, which is the exact same name as the sorcerer's ability. This has "danger will robinson" written all over it.

The blood rager is essentially a dragon disciple you get to play from level 1. If the alternate class is replacing a prestige class.. thats part of the point: to not make you wait half the game to play your character.

Mysterious Pistolero incident: Theres a less than questionable exploit to try to get double your dex to damage with firearms by mixing the mysterious stranger and Pistelero archtypes.

[Mystic Lemur]

Verzen wrote:

Mysterious Pistolero incident?

Mike Brock ruled that if you had a gunslinger with both the Pistolero and Mysterious Stranger archetypes that you had until a certain date to change out of one or the other or your character would be retired when they finally errata the two as not stacking. There is a thread, there is a lot of butthurt in that thread, and as far as I'm aware it still hasn't been erratad. And since the "clarification" isn't anywhere obvious, there are likely still mysterious pistoleros out there who don't know that Mike has banhammered the build.

[Conman the Bardbarian]

Firearm Rules wrote:

All firearms are part of the same weapon group for the purposes of the fighter's weapon training class feature.

Why should it be eratta'd it already looks like it's in the book.

[Seraphimpunk]

BigNorseWolf wrote:

SCPRedMage wrote:

Yeah... no. Trust me, I've looked the document over thoroughly, and I've read the official updates, and no where does anything say anything about hybrid classes actually counting as the classes they're based on*

The blood rager counts as having rage

The brawler counts as both monk and fighter levels
The swashbuckler counts as fighter levels.
Penache counts as grit.

And most importantly, The blood rager has a bloodline, which is the exact same name as the sorcerer's ability. This has "danger will robinson" written all over it.

The blood rager is essentially a dragon disciple you get to play from level 1. If the alternate class is replacing a prestige class.. thats part of the point: to not make you wait half the game to play your character.

bloodrage is spelled out as being the same as rage for feats,

brawler has a class ability that explicitly calls them out as counting as both monk and fighter levels.
panache and grit is called out in a sidebar as being compatible.
there hasn't been any part of the ACG playtest that equates Bloodrager bloodlines to Sorcerer bloodlines. they even do different things, though they're based off the same bloodlines.

and i may have missed it, but where do swashbucklers count as fighter levels?
i don't think they do, which helps make the point that the mash-up classes aren't just combinations of the two classes they build on.

still i think its thematically fitting if bloodrager/dragon disciple is of the Dragon bloodline.
but just as a bard can become a dragon disciple, and progress spellcasting, its easy to see how that interacts with Blood of Dragons.

blood of dragons PrC ability wrote:

Blood of Dragons: A dragon disciple adds his level to his sorcerer levels when determining the powers gained from his bloodline. If the dragon disciple does not have levels of sorcerer, he instead gains bloodline powers of the draconic bloodline, using his dragon disciple level as his sorcerer level to determine the bonuses gained. He must choose a dragon type upon gaining his first level in this class and that type must be the same as his sorcerer type. This ability does not grant bonus spells to a sorcerer unless he possesses spell slots of an appropriate level. Such bonus spells are automatically granted if the sorcerer gains spell slots of the spell's level.

its harder to see how Blood of Dragons interacts with Bloodrager Dragon Bloodline. its not Sorcerer Dragon Bloodline. I think if you're any Bloodrager, you can qualify for Dragon Disciple, but whatever bloodline you are, isn't going to be advanced by the prestige class, you're going to gain the Sorcerer Draconic Bloodline abilities as called out in the PrC. so your Bloodrager Bloodline likely doesn't matter. I can't see a strong argument for the Blood of Dragons advancing the Bloodrager Draconic Bloodline abilities, since they're not called out as being the same in the ACG playtest.

[AndIMustMask]

currently you dont, but i think they mean to change that in the official release this year.

I threw together a few bloodrager builds during the playtest, including two DD builds (bottom of the doc)--one assuming you have to take draconic and that blood of dragons will be updated for sorc or BR bloodlines, with the other build assuming it wouldn't be updated and you didnt need to take draconic.

the former is still under construction (losing out on the tail slap in exchange for form of the dragon shenanigans), the latter ends up with a whopping 52 (+21 one-handed, +31 two-handed) strength in the endgame (you could also dip 1 in alchemist (BR 12 / DD 7 / ALCH 1) for an additional +4 strength (alchemical) from mutagen, totaling to 56 (a +23 one-handed, +34 two-handed))!

its a shame that robes of arcane heritage dont work for BR's either.

[SCPRedMage]

Seraphimpunk wrote:

and i may have missed it, but where do swashbucklers count as fighter levels?

Very last sentence of their bonus feats class feature.

Revised ACG Playtest wrote:

Swashbuckler levels are considered fighter levels for the purpose of meeting combat feat prerequisites.

Note that they only count as fighters for the purposes of taking combat feats.

[Seraphimpunk]

ooh nice to know, thanks =)
making a swashbuckler next for pfs and missed that
so at 4th level they could qualify for weapon specialization?

[SCPRedMage]

Seraphimpunk wrote:

ooh nice to know, thanks =)

making a swashbuckler next for pfs and missed that
so at 4th level they could qualify for weapon specialization?

Assuming they took Weapon Focus, of course.

My only question is would they be able to take it as one of their regular feats, or does the fact that it's listed in the bonus feat feature mean they only count as fighter levels for their bonus feats. My guess would be that, seeing as the bonus feat HAS to be a combat feat, the fact that that last sentence once again calls out combat feats would indicate that it's meant to be a general statement, and not limited to only their bonus feats.

Of course, the swashbuckler I'm planning for PFS is definitely feat-starved his first few levels; Combat Reflexes, Dervish Dance, Power Attack, and Improved Initiative eat up his feat slots through level five, but I might be able to fit Weapon Spec in by level eight. I'll start him off with Slashing Grace (scimitar) at level one, then UC retrain him into Dervish Dance at level two, assuming I don't just GM-credit him straight to level three. Assuming a masterwork scimitar and a +2 Dex belt, when he spends panache on precise strike and power attacks, he's looking at +10 attack, 1d6+10+10 precision damange, 15-20/x2 crit, and +13 init by level five.

[BigNorseWolf]

Dip the dervish dancing bard for the feat. You lose 1 bab but gain a feat, a +2 reflex save, a +2 will save, the ability to use wands of cLW and probably more mobility than the class comes with (via expeditious retreat and/or featherstep)