I hate how fragile first level characters are, and I'm not overly fond of the idea that PC's came out of the womb as a Wizard or well-trained Fighter - at least not from an RP perspective...
What would you think about granting all PC's a single level in an NPC class (Noble, Expert, Commoner, Warrior) to represent their 'previous life'? We generally play in a lower magic setting and rarely play beyond what an AP would take us to (17th level or so). I don't think it would be unbalancing and it might add a lot to the character.
I have actually done this in several of my games and it seems to work out nice. It makes the PCs starting at level 1 less of a total waste of an hour or so it takes to make a character, seeing as a well made barbarian with a good con can totally eat a bag of metal.....whoohoos...to like 2 or 3 arrows where one of them was a critical hit. Plus it adds more flesh to your character and really brings the concept of what they wanted to play to the foreground. I generally make people write a back story anyways and choosing an npc class along with that is just a nice touch. I generally am not out for blood when i Gm but i definitely make things challenging and interesting and i have on occasion wiped the whole party (mostly due to party arrogance or pitiful rolls that day). Its a neat idea and works out great from personal experience.
I can't imagine it'd be game-breaking in anyw ay, and it might be a nice way to flesh out some skills for lower-skilled characters.
I think the next game we have we're going to forgo maxing out that first HD and do this instead. Give 'em a class level 0 so to speak. It should even out the 1st-3rd level power curve without affecting the mid to late game much at all.
I always start at 3rd level for my games, it gives the players enough options to actually enjoy the class they are playing.
While this doesn't help with the "fragility" per se, I did this in a campaign I am currently running:
1. Using a converted module meant for "0-level" characters, I had everyone create characters as 1st level NPCs. I did mildly beef up commoners, and added an arcane adept variant called the apprentice.
2. After earning around 500 xp, the party became 1st level PCs by "gestalting" their NPC classes with a 1st level PC class. Basically, taking the best of either class indetermining hit dice, skill points, bab, saving throws,etc. So a commoner/fighter and an adept/paladin both have a d10 hit die. All class skills are kept. An adept converts to whatever spell list/spellcasting method their new spellcasting class has, but they may include adept 0 and 1st level spells as potential spells known. For example, one player made an adept inquisitor who added burning hands as a spell known, taken from the adept list, but it counts against inquisitor spells known.
3. From level 2 on they level normally as PCs in the PC classes of their choice.
In practice, this resulted largely with 1st level characters with a wider, larger list of class skills, and possibly a few better saves. A little more well rounded than your average 1st level PCs, they were not significantly more powerful, which made it easy to determine challenges for them.
This certainly took care of not being born a PC fully formed, but likewise did not affect the power level much. I chose to gestalt 1st level rather than add a level so as not to bork hit dice counts and calculating APL and such, which could complicate things at higher level. Plus there's issues of effectively adding a hit die, because some spells and effects are hit die based, but yet a level 1 NPC/level x PC is going to be weaker than a full PC of the same total character level.
My method doesn't improve survivability per se but makes them a little more "complete" for lack of a better term. For survivability, I think it is easier to simply design encounters carefully. If necessary one could always boost starting HP.
I actually considered something similar in my campaign, and this seems like a really easy way to implement that idea. I never would have thought of that. I LIKE IT.
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I did this with my Kingmaker. Let PC's have an "intro level" of an NPC class, but they also had to write a little bit of a back story and explain why they had that particular NPC level and how it lead to their first PC level. The only thing I remember causing any problem was that Warriors get +1 BAB, so a Warrior 1/Fighter 1 will start w +2 BAB. You could probably drop the +1 BAB from Warrior and it would still be fine. Maybe offer Commoner some small incentive like a free Hero Point.
Watch out, because unless you do max HP at NPC and 1st PC level, max at NPC then 1/2+1 at PC could actually hurt some of your class combos.
I also gave PCs 1 free Knowledge rank and 1 free Craft/Profession rank at 1st.
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Yay my EK wont have to waste a level on being a martial
and that is why I probably would hesitate on doing it...some how, some way, somebody is gonna find a way to churn this idea into cheese instead of just adding to the character's cool background and give some minor boosts. Taking an NPC class that will allow early access into a PRC or that allows someone to access some feat/trait/etc that usually takes a while longer to enter is what would end up happening unless you stated that your starting NPC level abilities do not count as Prereqs for anything.
I do like DeathQuakers idea, but i would only do that for people that know a little more about RPGs, but i will definitely be doing this in the future and try it out. Seems pretty solid.
I had a couple people new to Pathfinder in my group (although not new to RPGs). We went step by step in the "leveling" process when everyone upgraded to "PC" and it went pretty smoothly.
To save on the need for keeping PC levels in mind and gestalting and assorted other complex-ish bookkeeping, maybe just:
+6 hp
+2 untyped bonus to save of player's choice
+3 skill points; one skill in which they're spent may become a class skill for that PC
at first level to keep it simple and not mess around with the character level calculations
How about instead of a NPC level... giving them a special template, not quite sure how to name this template yet, but it should work like this:
1) Template will give them extra half of the dice they get for HP at 1st level + Con modifier to their HP.
2) This template will give them 2 traits (if you already don't allow 2 traits at the begging of the game, they grant anything from saves to skills and abilities so that's a lot)
3) It will give 1 general feat.
4) Make any 2 skills class skills, or +1 to any 2 skills he already has.
5) 1 any feat they qualify for or an ability... like limited casting of a few level 1 spells per day or few cantrips/orisons of level 0 spells.
6) A detailed 1 A4 page, Arial 10 essay back-story text that makes sense why they have these traits, feats and abilities.
This is what I was thinking about trying starting next campaign.
@keydan challenge accepted lol but maker it 1d4 (dunno if that was what 1 A4 was or not) they will either hate it or love it and does it have to be a bonus to con what if I can provide 1d20 lines on why it should be (insert stat here)
@keydan challenge accepted lol but maker it 1d4 (dunno if that was what 1 A4 was or not) they will either hate it or love it and does it have to be a bonus to con what if I can provide 1d20 lines on why it should be (insert stat here)
The "Write me a page about your char" started when a new guy wanted a bit too much for his character at level 1 start campaign (he wanted to start with a spellbook and some minor magic item, being a rogue). So I told him, if he could convince me with a detailed and well written story about a characters past - I'll give him what he wants.
And boy, did he deliver. Now anyone who can write be at least 1 page of quality back-story can hope for some stuff or buffs at the start of the campaign.So the idea for this template came from there.
In book of experimental might it was suggested that you give Characters extra HP equal to there Con Score as a one off bonus at first level. This made them strong enough that they could survive facing monsters whos ability’s would normally be weak by the time the PCs could face them.
Maybe your template could give them this HP. That way they wouldn't have to know what class they were going to take later...
@keydan challenge accepted lol but maker it 1d4 (dunno if that was what 1 A4 was or not) they will either hate it or love it and does it have to be a bonus to con what if I can provide 1d20 lines on why it should be (insert stat here)The "Write me a page about your char" started when a new guy wanted a bit too much for his character at level 1 start campaign (he wanted to start with a spellbook and some minor magic item, being a rogue). So I told him, if he could convince me with a detailed and well written story about a characters past - I'll give him what he wants.
And boy, did he deliver. Now anyone who can write be at least 1 page of quality back-story can hope for some stuff or buffs at the start of the campaign.So the idea for this template came from there.
lol thats cool, kinda curious bout the spell book but oh well lol
Might have to start using that might make power gamers chill out or at least make their chars more understandable rp wise
Fake Healer does bring up a good point but more than likely if someone is looking that far ahead they probably are power gamers and even if they hadn't added the NPC class by the time they were high level would most likely already be on the verge of a walking apocalypse anyways. Strangely ive never had anybody do this. Powergamers are going to exploit the system no matter what. So maybe you could talk to your players and see what they want to play before deciding to do this so you dont have ridiculously OP PCs. And even if it ends up that way just design some serious baddies and let the damage flow.
Since this is all house ruling anyway, I think you could certainly house rule that all PrC prereqs must be met via PC classes.
Or... even not. The PrCs you could qualify for in that way I am not even sure would end up being broken if you did that--might even make them work better, sadly.
I hate how fragile first level characters are, and I'm not overly fond of the idea that PC's came out of the womb as a Wizard or well-trained Fighter - at least not from an RP perspective...
What would you think about granting all PC's a single level in an NPC class (Noble, Expert, Commoner, Warrior) to represent their 'previous life'? We generally play in a lower magic setting and rarely play beyond what an AP would take us to (17th level or so). I don't think it would be unbalancing and it might add a lot to the character.
Define "fragile" and define "free level".
If "fragile" means not enough hp, simply grant them more hp from the get-go. If you don't want to affect higher levels, have these extra hp "paid-back" as they level up.
If "free" means starting at level 2 (1 NPC level, 1 PC level), you can create issues by putting them 1 level "behind". This doesn't show much at early levels, but it's a bummer when you need to wait until level 12th for an ability you expected at level 11th.*
If by "free" you mean "doesn't count against your character level", consider giving them more hp and skill points at level 1 for simplicity sake, but NPC levels could work too I guess.
If you just want more "kick" at the top of the game, have your player start at level 2, and perhaps incite them to spend skill points in something that would represent their pre-adventurer's life.
*I know if I was the player, I wouldn't see it as a free level but as being "forced" to take a level in a NPC class. I'd ask not to get the free level and remain level 1.
'findel