I had a simple idea to deal with TWF gunslingers, but I wonder if it would have ramifications beyond what I'd be using it for.
What if one were to simply houserule that Rapid Shot and TWF cannot be used in conjunction with each other?
The TWF gunslinger is the only character I can think of who would care (other than maybe the TWF crossbowman -- do any of those exist?). Their reaction would be to stick with TWF and drop Rapid Shot. The end result would be one less attack per round. Unfortunately gunslingers would still be tempted to get extra arms or animated beards in order to spin the barrels on their pepperboxes.
Would this balance the build?
Again, would it unintentionally wreck anything else in the game?
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It would wreck Alchemist Bomber builds a tad.
The house Rule we came up with in our games to keep firearms relevant but not over shadow its other ranged weapon allies is to view them all pretty much like real life early age flint lock pistols. We got rid of misfire completely but made it were the quickest one can reload the gun is a swift action, no free action reloads. This alone made it were a gunslinger cant get 2 shots off with his main gun and that is it. He could be a smart mother and carry a butt load of guns and drop them after use but that gets expensive really fast.
Even with this supposed nerf to firearms my friend though still was a beast of a gunslinger. Once he was able to afford to have Reloading Hands permanently enchanted on both his guns and a pouch with Abundant Ammunition permanently enchanted he became a power house being able to shoot 5x a round at touch ac.
Hm, it would prevent alchemist bombers from going supernova? Not sure if that's really a "wreck", actually. But thanks, I hadn't thought of that.
Honestly, all my idea would do would be to reduce the maximum number of attacks by 1 (and bump up chance to hit by +2 by getting rid of the Rapid Shot penalty).
I'm not even sure if it's much of a nerf, really. Wonder how the math works out. It could conceivably help a less strategically gifted player out.
TWF and rapid shot I believe is another combo used for throwing builds to generate enough attacks. So this would also ruin those kinds of builds as well if I remember right.
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Losing out on Rapid shot is a nerf because that is 1 less attack. Or in the case of a well built healing Alchemist one less heal they can do with a Healing Bomb.
Also to hit is kinda meaningless for Gunslingers and Alchemist because they target Touch AC in there optimal range were they will position them selves as often as they can.
In concerns to damage lets say your using a d6 gun. That is 1d6 + Dex + Weapon Enhancement Bonus + Weapon Enhancement Effects + Msc party Bonuses from Bard/Wiz/Sorc/ext. Same goes for Alchemist except you replace the 1d6 and Weapon Enhancements for Bomb Damage and Dex is replaced with Int.
In before the archer fighter, archer paladin, & archer inquisitor make the nerfed gunslinger look even more like a chump.
The issue with twf with guns isn't an issue with rapid shot twf or even guns in general. Almost every thread involving gunslingers involves pistolero musket master or double barreled pistols.
Basically twf with guns often involves a specific chain of acttions over and over again. If the players can get around the loading issues with twf guns most issues come to a halt.
The issue with twf with guns isn't an issue with rapid shot twf or even guns in general. Almost every thread involving gunslingers involves pistolero musket master or double barreled pistols.
Basically twf with guns often involves a specific chain of acttions over and over again. If the players can get around the loading issues with twf guns most issues come to a halt.
I would think that the issues really BEGIN once players find ways around the loading issues with TWF guns.
The issue with twf with guns isn't an issue with rapid shot twf or even guns in general. Almost every thread involving gunslingers involves pistolero musket master or double barreled pistols.
Basically twf with guns often involves a specific chain of acttions over and over again. If the players can get around the loading issues with twf guns most issues come to a halt.
I would think that the issues really BEGIN once players find ways around the loading issues with TWF guns.
Actually it begins with GMs who play their encounters in the first range increment all the time. PFRPG assumes early firearms, which means they are only touch attacks in the first range increment. Knowing your party and being able to challenge them appropriately is a sign of a "good" GM. Most who complain about gunslingers being overpowered (or whatever complaint it is) probably don't understand the rule set well enough to do a good job running a game honestly...
Uh. The real problem with Gunslingers is Double Barreled. That stuff is outrageous. It causes the Gunslinger to go from 7 attacks a round to 14.
I changed gunslingers from touch AC at close range to AC-4. Seems to work just fine as a house rule and gets rid of some touch AC weirdness.
Curious about one thing in regards to gunslinging and the call for balance. The ammo for guns is relatively expensive, isn't it? Isn't that alone a relatively balancing factor?
Not even. Gunslingers craft ammo at 1/10th the cost and alchemical cartridges at half cost.
Curious about one thing in regards to gunslinging and the call for balance. The ammo for guns is relatively expensive, isn't it? Isn't that alone a relatively balancing factor?
More so in the beginning opposed to mid to later levels. Similar to archery.
Spells and items can help mitigate the cost a certain price points.
It's not even TWF and Rapid Shot that make Gunslingers do lots of damage. Pretty much all of it comes from Double Barreled guns. But that's not even a gun problem. Imagine a Greatsword or Composite Bow that lets you do twice the amount of attacks you usually do for just -4 penalty on attack rolls. THW martials and archers would start doing obscene amounts of damage.
It's not even TWF and Rapid Shot that make Gunslingers do lots of damage. Pretty much all of it comes from Double Barreled guns. But that's not even a gun problem. Imagine a Greatsword or Composite Bow that lets you do twice the amount of attacks you usually do for just -4 penalty on attack rolls. THW martials and archers would start doing obscene amounts of damage.
I've got to admit, the Gunslinger in my campaign isn't even touching double barreled weapons, and he is still mucking with the game a bit.
I think the problem with the Gunslinger is it hits touch AC with a full BAB score. That puts it far ahead of any other ranged class.
Change that to either vs flatfooted or even full AC and they are on more even ground.
I don't understand why people think that removing the ability to hit Touch AC is a good idea for balancing guns. That's the only thing guns have going for them.
Compared to other ranged weapons, guns have less range, cost extra gold to fire and have a chance of blowing up if you roll low enough. You can't even add any ability score mods to damage unless you're a specific class, which gets no additional sources of damage to their damage rolls with guns.
If you remove the ability to hit Touch AC, guns would literally be worse than crossbows. And that's saying something.
I think the problem with the Gunslinger is it hits touch AC with a full BAB score. That puts it far ahead of any other ranged class.
Change that to either vs flatfooted or even full AC and they are on more even ground.
Putting it on full AC just makes them a really expensive overly limited archer/ranged weapon class.
No other weapon has a chance of making itself non functional on a semi regular basis, it should have a decent to good perk. The fact that the more you use it the more likely it is to happen (until your character is very very wealthy) seems to get lost on people.
If your warlock shoots acid every single round and you are playing enemies as being their Int scores, after awhile the smarter enemies will start investing in ways to counter the acid. They will also start investing in minions that are resistant or immune to it.
Interesting. You presuppose enemies who have had several encounters with the party and lived to regroup and alter their plans (or, possibly, have friends who did so and informed them).
Yes, SOME enemies will be this, but in my experience, the majority will not.
I'm not saying your campaigns AREN'T like this, but if they are, they are very different from my experiences as a player and a GM over the last 30 years.
I presuppose enemies who bother to use divination spells to find out what went wrong with their minions, then look for a pattern of what kept killing the minions and begin to adapt accordingly. Or enemies who lose contact with a dungeon, come by long after the PCs are gone to find out why there's no contact, and begin to notice patterns in how the people in the dungeon were taken out. Or enemies who hear the party is after them through their own keeping an eye out for who might fool their plans and that enemy doing some research on places the party has adventured, visiting sites to get an idea of their tactics and such if any evidence remains, paying attention to what people say...
I pretty much assume that the enemies of the party are not just sitting around, waiting for some group of heroes to come and ruin their day. I assume the intelligent enemies are actively keeping an eye out for problems, will do their homework, will look for patterns, and will make a note of anything unique about any group that appears a threat. And I've had a number of players use this to their advantage, in that they used a particular tactic up until the final battle and then intentionally changed tactics just so their enemy wouldn't know what was coming.
But, then, I don't keep the player characters in the dark about it. The more powerful they become and more of a threat they become to their enemies, the more they will hear of their enemies inquiring about them, investigating places they've adventured, and the more often they will have a chance to catch their enemies spying on them with magic. So the players and those they oppose are, on information, usually on even ground at the higher levels, though the players always maintain a slight edge (and really smart characters intentionally make that edge bigger).
I presuppose enemies who bother to use divination spells to find out what went wrong with their minions, then look for a pattern of what kept killing the minions and begin to adapt accordingly. Or enemies who lose contact with a dungeon, come by long after the PCs are gone to find out why there's no contact, and begin to notice patterns in how the people in the dungeon were taken out. Or enemies who hear the party is after them through their own keeping an eye out for who might fool their plans and that enemy doing some research on places the party has adventured, visiting sites to get an idea of their tactics and such if any evidence remains, paying attention to what people say...I pretty much assume that the enemies of the party are not just sitting around, waiting for some group of heroes to come and ruin their day. I assume the intelligent enemies are actively keeping an eye out for problems, will do their homework, will look for patterns, and will make a note of anything unique about any group that appears a threat. And I've had a number of players use this to their advantage, in that they used a particular tactic up until the final battle and then intentionally changed tactics just so their enemy wouldn't know what was coming.
You're talking about boss enemies, which (IME anyway) comprise only a small sliver of total encounters. I agree with you all the way on most of this, when it is applicable. It's just that IME it isn't applicable all that often. When the PCs enter an abandoned crypt that hasn't been opened in hundreds of years, its denizens haven't been keeping up on their activities over the last several levels.
Not saying that you're lying or anything, just observing that you and I probably have had very different campaign experiences, both as players and as GMs.
I'm not saying that every enemy would do it. There's a lot of enemies that are not intelligent or wouldn't care. Or which simply wouldn't have a way to find out.
And I wasn't thinking just boss enemies; occasionally, even the random wizard out to cause trouble might do a bit of research, though the wizard's preparation to counter the PCs would be less effective. But the wizard doing that and being familiar enough with the group to think it's necessary would be a clue to the group that their enemies are watching them now and just how much information they've left out to be found about themselves.
You have to have a free hand to reload, so I don't even see how TWF works with guns (other than not reloading them). People used to use guns with weapon cords to drop one to reload the other, but they changed weapon cord action from swift to move to recover a weapon.
Ahh, there are still plenty of ways to get a free hand or grow an additional one. It really just got rid of one of the more simpler things at the cost of other things you could do with the weapon cords, rather than do anything about the core of gun mechanics. Glove of storing for instance still works.
You have to have a free hand to reload, so I don't even see how TWF works with guns (other than not reloading them). People used to use guns with weapon cords to drop one to reload the other, but they changed weapon cord action from swift to move to recover a weapon.Ahh, there are still plenty of ways to get a free hand or grow an additional one. It really just got rid of one of the more simpler things at the cost of other things you could do with the weapon cords, rather than do anything about the core of gun mechanics. Glove of storing for instance still works.
My favorite is probably one level of witch to get the prehensile hair hex, and have your beard/moustache turn the pepperbox barrels for you.
Two levels of alchemist for the extra hand is another popular method.
They're all pretty cheesy, but what do you expect? Players gonna min/max.
One of the things seems to be free actions. The game has it designed that they be limited by the gm but no one seems to do this. So we get the one hand f "free" to do 9 things then that hand is used while the other hand is "free" to do 9 things. But other than the limiting of free actions there doesn't seem to be anything prevenring it. A good rule of thumb though I think is if you have to write out the list of order of operarion to explain how your doing something it is orobably too conplex.
For the record I played a mysterious stranger to lvl 15 in skull and shackles and there were no balance issues.
One of the things seems to be free actions. The game has it designed that they be limited by the gm but no one seems to do this. So we get the one hand f "free" to do 9 things then that hand is used while the other hand is "free" to do 9 things. But other than the limiting of free actions there doesn't seem to be anything prevenring it. A good rule of thumb though I think is if you have to write out the list of order of operarion to explain how your doing something it is orobably too conplex.
For the record I played a mysterious stranger to lvl 15 in skull and shackles and there were no balance issues.
I played a mysterious stranger as well in Serpents skull. Most of the time, my damage was laughable. Until I started focusing on Dead Shot about level 11.