Sneak Attack: When Can A Rogue Use It?

[kindredspirit]

There seems to be a general concensus about when a rogue can use sneak attack. My question stems from the separate entries for losing dexterity bonuses and being denied dexterity bonuses in the combat modifiers table. This suggests a much smaller list of situations in which a rogue might be able to use sneak attack, as the sneak attack entry specifies a target that is denied dexterity. Is there a deliberate distinction between the two? Is this addressed somewhere? I can't find anything that calls those table entries into question.

[Darksol the Painbringer]

A creature that is denied Dexterity means they cannot add their Dexterity Modifier to stats that are normally dependant upon it, i.e. Reflex Saves and AC.

You also have the Flat-Footed condition. While this also accomplishes the same thing, being denied Dexterity is a sub-section of being Flat-Footed, and could be negated via immunities, whereas being denied Dexterity is something that can be brought on by things other than being Flat-Footed.

It's the same paradigm regarding All X is Y, But not all Y is X. All Flat-Footed creatures are denied Dexterity, but not all creatures denied Dexterity are Flat-Footed.

[Cheapy]

It's not sufficient for the enemy to have lost any points of Dexterity to get sneak attack. They have to have the specific condition of "denied Dexterity bonus to AC".

For example, if you affect someone with a poison that reduces Dex, you can't sneak attack them unless they are Denied Their Dexterity Bonus To AC. Or you're flankin' them.

Even if they've lost an equal number of points to Dex to give them a +0 or lower bonus to AC from dex, they still haven't been Denied Their Dexterity Bonus To AC.

[kindredspirit]

Thank you for the feedback. If there, in fact, is a difference between losing dexterity vs. ignoring dexterity vs. denying dexterity, then I would read that sneak attack can only be performed in the following situations:

- against unaware opponents, which includes surprised opponents
- against flat-footed opponents
- against helpless and pinned opponents
- against opponents the sneak attacker flanks

As far as invisible attackers, and blinded/cowering/stunned defenders, the defenders "loses" dexterity, but does not necessarily suffer from the conditions above. Flat-footed also "loses" dexterity according to the combat modifier table and the appendix, but the actual entry, which trumps tables and appendices, states the defender "can't use" their dexterity, so that puts in into the group above, I suppose?

I feel like I'm splitting hairs, but I can't ignore that, after several printings and errata, "loses" and "is denied" area still listed separately as though they should be considered two separate conditions.

Thanks.

[Kaisoku]

You are splitting hairs. In the contexts you mention, you could use the terms "lose" or "denied" interchangeably.

The only "loss" of Dex that doesn't work, is loss of points of Dex, since you can't say "denied 2 points of Dex" and be using game terminology.

Essentially, it's the "Dexterity bonus to AC" game term that's the factor in triggering it, not the specific word used in "removal" of it.

[Ciaran Barnes]

Being denied dex bonus is a fickle means of getting to sneak attack. I would worry more about being able to flank.

[Heimdall666]

Dex bonus can also be denied via Feint/Greater Feint. Best rogue use actually, as with greater feint they do that and sneak attack same round.

[Shadowlord]

kindredspirit wrote:

Thank you for the feedback. If there, in fact, is a difference between losing dexterity vs. ignoring dexterity vs. denying dexterity, then I would read that sneak attack can only be performed in the following situations:

- against unaware opponents, which includes surprised opponents
- against flat-footed opponents
- against helpless and pinned opponents
- against opponents the sneak attacker flanks

As far as invisible attackers, and blinded/cowering/stunned defenders, the defenders "loses" dexterity, but does not necessarily suffer from the conditions above. Flat-footed also "loses" dexterity according to the combat modifier table and the appendix, but the actual entry, which trumps tables and appendices, states the defender "can't use" their dexterity, so that puts in into the group above, I suppose?

I feel like I'm splitting hairs, but I can't ignore that, after several printings and errata, "loses" and "is denied" area still listed separately as though they should be considered two separate conditions.

Thanks.

Kaisoku is correct.

Also, if you are correct then your list is too long. Sneak Attack would not work against surprised/flat-footed opponents. Flat-footed is listed under "loses Dex" not "denied Dex."

Also someone attacking from Invisibility wouldn't work, because it is listed as causing the defender to "lose Dex." Stealth works in a similar way to attacking from Invisibility. So, if you are correct that would also not allow Sneak Attack.

However, Developers have stated Sneak Attack is used when attacking from Invisibility and Stealth. Any time your opponent cannot add their Dex bonus to their AC you add Sneak Attack to your strikes.