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Fortification armor could cause a problem. Though. One I have been working on. thankfully my DM places a high emphasis on skills. Allows spellcraft checks to determine the formula for the armor and to figure out where its not "protected" not easy DCs. But hey. lol. A more convential method to get around it but eh.
First off, your house rules are house rules and don't have any bearing on discussions of class balance.
Secondly, even if your DM was going to allow skills to overcome armor (which is a TERRIBLE idea), Spellcraft is about spells. It provides no information at all on how armor works. Logically, I could see allowing a Craft(Armor) check or a High perception check to allow you to spot an opening, but really, that is what AC is: an approximation of you hitting someone where they are going to take damage from it. That is why it's easier to hit someone wearing cloth than full plate, there is a lot more open space to hit.
As for your defenses, your CMD is only 42. A level 20 fighter could easily Trip/Disarm/Sunder/grapple you, and then your mobility tricks and AC don't matter, and you won't have access to your charge sneak attack.
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im sorry, I meant to say that its just a house rule and that I was looking for other more conventional (if any) ways of getting around that fortification.
and as stated several several times. I know a maneuver based fighter could easily trip/disarm/blah what have you. Though most fighters I see are never based on this. With base bonuses, it could still be done just a tad more difficult, possibly provoking AoO if he doesn't have a feat (which I admit, may be unlikely). That said, I never said I was going to fight completely fair :P. PvP talk aside-
so far my guy has worked out well (the house rule has never come in effect, and I would argue you that, since it was a spell which created the formula/effect of the magic armor, would work fine, though I am fine with you giving me perception rolls instead.) at 8 I always get my sneak attack (bar the few times things are immune, which, I still do -decent- damage thanks to agile) on top of being a general distraction and nuisance. (I can get almost anywhere I want already without fear, even if I don't beat there CMD with my acrobatics they usually miss atm)
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Also, as for monk builds, have you seen the MOMMS/drunken master with elemental fist (bought through dragon tree)? you won't do as well vs high AC bosses, but, take serpent, panther, and dragon styles for drunken hilarity as you stumble into the ranks of the enemy, then, as they take AoOs on you, proceed to beat the crap out of them! lol
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yeah. fort armor sucks for us. Is there any RAW way to circumvent? Or do I have to "catch em with his breeches down" lol.
Honestly, you would think there would be more twf SnB fighters. but I only ever see 2handed fighters, tower shield fighters and the rare TWF fighter when ever I play/DM. only SnB people I see are the occasional ranger or paladin.
Flowing monk looks interesting (seems trip and reposition-happy for AoOs that way, and sickened+prone makes for an easier target to hit, on top of flurry), but i'm not sure about all these saves to resist, and that it's mainly limited to your size or smaller (making late-game stuff largely immune).
pardon the doublepost, cant edit after an hour: since qinggong adds spells as SLA's, could a monk take the quicken SLA feat?
EDIT: updated the doc with some (heavily in-progress) build drafts: mostly just different AT combos, and a pair of sir thugsalot-inspired katana-flurrying monks--the first unfortunately doesn't start being a monk until 5th, but the second starts at 2nd (though uses ACG playtest material, and is kinda sketchy on the wis stacking).
Also, as for monk builds, have you seen the MOMMS/drunken master with elemental fist (bought through dragon tree)? you won't do as well vs high AC bosses, but, take serpent, panther, and dragon styles for drunken hilarity as you stumble into the ranks of the enemy, then, as they take AoOs on you, proceed to beat the crap out of them! lol
Yeah, it's great fun to beat up the enemies everyone else can beat up, but what counts most is against the tough enemies.
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Also, as for monk builds, have you seen the MOMMS/drunken master with elemental fist (bought through dragon tree)? you won't do as well vs high AC bosses, but, take serpent, panther, and dragon styles for drunken hilarity as you stumble into the ranks of the enemy, then, as they take AoOs on you, proceed to beat the crap out of them! lolYeah, it's great fun to beat up the enemies everyone else can beat up, but what counts most is against the tough enemies.
Or maybe you can just beat up the BBEGs minions in the fight and leave the others free to take him on...
current swordmonk is swinging at +42/+42/+42/+42/+37/+37/+32/+32/+27
with flurry, haste, and a ki attack. this is with his boots and the bane baldric activated (and ioun stone bonuses).
against AC36 (CR-equivalent), the accuracy is: 95%/95%/95%/95%/95%/95%/80%/80%/55%
ancient red dragon's AC42 puts our accuracy at: 95%/95%/95%/95%/75%/75%/50%/50%/25%
problem is his damage is only ~27 average, as compared to the first unarmed build's average damage of ~60 (though the unarmed one has far fewer attacks--not counting AoOs, since those are a bit fuzzy). even with a 30% crit with his keen katana, that seems like quite a drop.
he doesnt currently have PA because while the damage increase would be nice (+4 (6 2H) damage), the accuracy hit hurts.
WIP sohei build is currently swinging at +46/+46/+46/+46/+41/+41/+36/+36/+31 with flurry, haste, and ki attack on a charge (thanks to mounted skirmisher he can pull the whole shebang off while mobile).
damage is sitting at ~39 damage per swing, while riding a charging pouncing full-progression animal companion tiger that's also dealing damage. that you can power up by spending ki on it (no action cost is listed, oddly, so it might be a free thing to spend ki on)
you also have the advantage of wearing an amulet of natural armor (you can still buy an AoMF fo your tiger though) AND light armor (until your monk AC catches up, then bracers as usual, or grabbing medium armor prof and wearing mithral breastplate with no worries) with virtually no penalty--you're like a cavalier with better saves, more attacks, a swift action weapon buff (that's better than arcane strike), and built-in weapon training.
main issue is that it changes you from monk money worries (AoMF, robe, bracers) to ranger/druid/cavalier money worries (you now have an animal companion to equip as well)
Or maybe they all died or were already incapacitated by spells or other characters and you don't do anything of note in the fight. Having an inability to compete with the nastiest thing in the room is never going to be a good thing because more often than not the nastiest thing in the room is what your party is going to need killed before it kills them.Or maybe you can just beat up the BBEGs minions in the fight and leave the others free to take him on...Also, as for monk builds, have you seen the MOMMS/drunken master with elemental fist (bought through dragon tree)? you won't do as well vs high AC bosses, but, take serpent, panther, and dragon styles for drunken hilarity as you stumble into the ranks of the enemy, then, as they take AoOs on you, proceed to beat the crap out of them! lolYeah, it's great fun to beat up the enemies everyone else can beat up, but what counts most is against the tough enemies.
I'm curious as to why is assumed that the monks attacks are not magically buffed and the foes defenses have not been lowered. What are your casters doing?
3/4 classes are perfectly functional at hitting targets.
Also Dragon Roar from the dragon style line is a reflex save not a to-hit roll that can does double strength damage unarmed attack and scaling elemental fist damage. You can even power attack with it for all kinds of stupid.
Why is it assumed that only the monk gets the benefits from magical buffs and debuffs? What if the DM chooses to balance to the buffed fighter can you make up the to hit difference?
The GM can also create a zone of no-partial casting where only 9th lvl casters can use spells.
I would hope your GM balanced encounters with CR not because they have some weird fetish where they get off to the fighter missing their first attack.
yo, this back and forth is only getting both of you agitated. any comments or suggestions for the docs, or personal builds (i'd love to see a temple sword build, but i'm juggling like 5 at once right now...) either of you would like to post?
let's keep things productive.
EDIT: and positive. positive is good too.
If you don't know which of those is more likely then I think I'm going to have to respectfully bow out of this conversation.Why is it assumed that only the monk gets the benefits from magical buffs and debuffs? What if the DM chooses to balance to the buffed fighter can you make up the to hit difference?The GM can also create a zone of no-partial casting where only 9th lvl casters can use spells.
I would hope your GM balanced encounters with CR not because they have some weird fetish where they get off to the fighter missing their first attack.
If you don't think both of those are a terrible gaming experience, I'm going to have to bow out of this conversation.
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Guys! Guys!
Magical Marketplace adds clockwork prosthetics (6400g a pop)--they add bonuses to lifting overhead (arms) or off the ground (legs), add +4 CMD for sunder and disarm for held items (arms) or vs bull rush and trip maneuvers (legs), and can be enchanted as weapons with any effect that applies to an unarmed strike!
AoMF worries begone! it'll just cost you a limb or four (or more, since there's apparently crazy ones like gun-parts, auto-pinning parts, and even magic-channeling ones out there).
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I'm tempted to throw together a monk with prosthetic arms and legs who runs around shouting "I didn't ask for this!"
also, great system we got here, since it literally costs a monk an arm and/or a leg to not have to wear an AoMF. Brings new meaning to the "unarmed" monk.
whoops, the arm doesnt give a bonus against sunder, but the disarm bonus to CMD is +10 (!!!), and each installed leg grants a +4 bonus vs bull rush and trip, meaning both legs total to +8 against them (!!!!!)
Or maybe they all died or were already incapacitated by spells or other characters and you don't do anything of note in the fight. Having an inability to compete with the nastiest thing in the room is never going to be a good thing because more often than not the nastiest thing in the room is what your party is going to need killed before it kills them.Or maybe you can just beat up the BBEGs minions in the fight and leave the others free to take him on...Also, as for monk builds, have you seen the MOMMS/drunken master with elemental fist (bought through dragon tree)? you won't do as well vs high AC bosses, but, take serpent, panther, and dragon styles for drunken hilarity as you stumble into the ranks of the enemy, then, as they take AoOs on you, proceed to beat the crap out of them! lolYeah, it's great fun to beat up the enemies everyone else can beat up, but what counts most is against the tough enemies.
Assuming there were any to begin with. I've gone an adventure path and consistently found that the "boss fights" were largely party vs BBEG alone.
I'm curious as to why is assumed that the monks attacks are not magically buffed and the foes defenses have not been lowered. What are your casters doing?
Not all casters bother with buffing and debuffing, and the monk cannot do it for himself. That's the problem with assuming roles on the rest of the party - one non-standard party and you are up the creek.
3/4 classes are perfectly functional at hitting targets.
When they self buff, I agree. Oh wait, monks and rogues, by consensus the two weakest classes in the game because they can't hit much, are 3/4 classes that cannot self-buff...
Also Dragon Roar from the dragon style line is a reflex save not a to-hit roll that can does double strength damage unarmed attack and scaling elemental fist damage. You can even power attack with it for all kinds of stupid.
Gosh, one feat that delivers a decent effect at the end of a three feat chain for one kind of monk...not a fix for the class as a whole is it? Especially when it can be taken by other classes just as easily or even easier...
dude. they've bowed out. dont pick at it.
the monks got lots of issues. we all know that. lets work on finding ways to mitigate them, instead of sitting around arguing about it.
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Aassimar (lawbringer) Monk level 20 Martial Artisit 25 pt buy
Str: 16 (18) level bonuses (30)
Dex: 14 (20)
Con: 14 (with racial bonus) (20)
Int: 10 (16)
Wis: 18 (with racial bonus) (21) level bonuses(32)
Cha: 7
Feats
Dodge, Toughness- 1
Deflect arrows-2
Dragon Style-3
Weapon Specialization (unarmed)-5
Improved Grapple- 6
7- Dragon Ferocity
9- Elemental Fist
10- Improved Critical (unarmed strikes)
11- Dragon Ferocity
13- Weapon Focus (Unarmed strikes)
14- Mobility
15- Greater Weapon Focus (unarmed strike)
17- Greater Weapon specialization
18- Spring Attack
19- ???? (Penetrating strikes?)
Magical Items
Belt of Physical Perfection +6 – 144k
Head band of Mental Superiority – 144k
Monk’s Robes- 13k
Amulet of Mighty Fists- +5 -125k
Ring of Protection +5- 50k
Bracers of Armor +8 64k
Tome of Strength +4 110k
Tome of Wisdom +5 135k
Bag of Holding 2 5k
Boots of Speed 12k
Googles of Night 12k
Pale green Ioun Stone 30k
Iridescent Ioun Stone 18k
Dusty Rose Ioun stone 5k
Clear Ioun Stone 4k
Defense. Assuming avg. hit dice gain of 4 + con. + hp per level
HP: 200 (4+5+1)
AC: 48 (10+8+5+1+5+6+12)
Fort: 22
Ref: 22
Will: 28
Offense 15 BaB
15+9+2+5 (flurry +haste)+33/33/33/29/29/24/24
Damage (4d8?)+ 24 +5d6 (elemental Fist) (str 10+5 (dragon ferocity) +5 ammy of fists+4 wep spec.)
hows this one look?
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on an aside, a bit of googling found this build. I like what he has done here. what are the opinions of paizo!
http://tenletter.wordpress.com/2012/03/27/pathfinder-the-judo-master/
with the greater trip feat when you trip an enemy you get TWO AoOs one from greater trip when you trip them, and one from vicious stomp when he falls prone next to you, and possibly one when he stands up!
focusing on tripping is generally only good in the early game (which that build is centered around), since later on things that are too large, have too many legs, or that can fly are far too prevalent to really get any use out of it.
that said i like the setup--it piles on some good debuffs (grappled, prone), but as he says, it has the issue of low HP and AC.
The build I posted is wrong I forgot the bab bonus on flurry. Should be ,37/37/37/37/32/32/28/28 (flurry + haste)
lesse, on CR appropriate enemies (36) your accuracy is: 95%/95%/95%/95%/80%/80%/60%/60%
on the ancient red example (42), you're at: 75%/75%/75%/75%/55%/55%/30%/30%
respectable, but try to to tick off any dragons i guess.
also where are you getting that fourth full-BAB attack? you get two from flurry, one from haste, and? the builds I've posted get the extra ki attack, but MA gives up ki.
question: if you enchanted a clockwork prosthetic (arm) with brilliant energy, could you reach through walls with it?
if so, you wouldn't wanna enchant a leg with it, since you couldn't walk on it (it'd fall through the ground
That's my bad. Only supposed to be 3 full bab. And you could walk on the unenchanted nub! :D
hey, you still keep your crazy monk speed too.
it'd suck for people with a quadruple prosthesis though--the'yd have to ride in a palanquin or something--and have to hear people laugh at the white glowy legs dangling from the bottom. riding horses would be horrible, since they couldn't use the stirrups to get up or down.
though the enchants would be set individually, so if someone actually spent the dosh to get FOUR brilliant energy clockwork prosthetics, you'd think they would know what theyre getting into.
with the new ACG material i thought i'd revive the thread to collect more useful monk builds/tips/etc.
something i've been toying with:
"I'M TRIPPING BALLS"
* - FCB spent on 5 ki points
vows of silence, truth, and fasting taken.
stats
START: str 16 (5+2), dex 14 (5), con 14 (5), int 11 (1), wis 16 (5+2), cha 9 (-1)
FINISH: str 30, dex 24, con 20, int 13, wis 26, cha 11
+5 str (level), +6 str/dex/con/wis, +2 int/cha (gear), +5 str, +4 dex/wis (book/wish)
traits: quan martial artist (+1 unarmed damage) / candidate for perfection (+1 attack on unarmed AoO's)
ki pool: 33 (10 level + 8 WIS + 5 FCB + 10 vows)
feats:
1 - racial heritage (halfling), improved trip*
2* - combat reflexes
3 - ki throw
5 - enhanced ki throw
6* - ???
7 - vicious stomp
9 - combat expertise
10* - improved critical (unarmed strike)
11 - greater trip
13 - dimensional agility
14* - ???
15 - dimensional assault
17 - dimensional dervish
18* - ???
19 - dimensional savant
* - monk bonus feats
GEAR:
weapon - +5 holy(2) courageous(1) fortuitous(1) menacing(1) clockwork prosthetic arm
shield - N/A
armor - N/A
head - Tri-Faced Helmet (+4 perception (enhancement), immunity to flanking, 360 view)
headband - +6 Headband of Wisdom
eyes - Lens of Detection (+5 perception (competence), +5 survival when tracking (competence))
neck - +5 Amulet of Natural Armor
shoulders - Cloak of Resistance (+5 all saves (resistance))
wrist - +8 bracers of armor
hands - ???
body - ???
chest - bane baldric (+2 atk, +2d6 dmg, swift action (5rd/day))
belt - +6 Belt of Physical perfection
feet - ???
ring - Ring of Protection (+5 AC (deflection))
ring - ???
slotless - clockwork prosthetics (arm x2, leg x2), pale green prism ioun stone (+1 atk/saves/skills/ability checks, competence), flawed pale green prism ioun stone (+1 attack/saves/skills/ability checks, morale (+3 w/ courageous)), wayfinder-slotted opalescent white pyramid ioun stone (unarmed strike) (+1 atk, grants WF), blus and scarlet sphere ioun stone (+2 int, enhancement), pink-and-green sphere ioun stone (+2 cha, enhancement)
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QINGGONG TRADES:
slow fall (4th) -> barkskin (1 ki)
wholeness of body (7th) -> gaseous form (1 ki) or scorching ray (2 ki) or true strike (1 ki)
diamond body (11th) -> ki leech (0 ki (!!!))
quivering palm (15th) -> blood crow strike (2 ki)
timeless body (17th) -> penetrating strike (2 ki)
tongue of the sun and moon (17th) -> ???
empty body (19th) -> ???
perfect self (20th) -> ???
TRIPS AS [size (level, +CMB/CMD bonus)]:
medium -> large (4, +1) -> huge (8, +2) -> gargantuan (12, +4) -> colossal (16, +8) -> colossal+ (20, +???)
BOILED DOWN:
BAB: 15/10/5 (+20/+20/+20/+20/+15/+15/+10/+10/+5 flurry+ki attack+haste)
Attack: +46/+46/+46/+46/+41/+41/+36/+36/+31 (20* bab, +10 strength, +5 enhancement, +2 haste, +1 WF, +1 competence, +3 morale (courageous), +2 bane, +4 flank (menacing+DDSavant), -2 TWF) - +1 trait on AoO's, +4 if enemy is prone
CMB (trip)*: 56 (20* BAB, +10 strength, +8 size, +4 feats, +5 enhancement, +2 haste, +1 WF, +1 competence, +3 morale (courageous), +2 bane, -2 TWF) - +1 trait on AoO's.
Absolute best case attack:
+56(trip+EKT)/+46(GT)/+41(FE)/+46(VS)/+50/+50/+50/+46/+46/+41/+41/+36
Damage: ~41 avg (2d10 base, +2d6 holy, +2d6 bane, +10 strength, +5 enhancement, +1 trait)
AC: 49 (10 + 7 dex +13 monk +8 armor +5 natural +5 deflect +1 haste)
Saves (f/r/w): 26/29/29 (12/12/12 class, 5/7/8 stats, 5/5/5 cloak, 0/1/0 haste, 4/4/4 stone)
NOTES:
passive +8 vs bullrush/trip, +10 vs disarm (anything in his hand, +20 if held in both), and tripled lift/carry limits from his (clockwork) prosthetics.
at extremely high levels you can flank with yourself due to dimensional savant, effectively getting a +4 (flanking + menacing enchant) bonus on every attack after your first, in addition to the likely +4 prone bonus.
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USUAL ROUTINE:
IF ADJACENT: Flurry someone. make the first hit as a trip (enhanced ki throw to deal unarmed damage as well as trip), greater trip AoO, fortutious enchant AoO, vicious stomp AoO, rest of flurry with prone bonus.
absolute best-case attack routine:
+56(trip+EKT)/+46(GT)/+41(FE)/+46(VS)/+50/+50/+50/+46/+46/+41/+41/+36
IF NOT ADJACENT: close and trip (enhanced ki throw) to deal unarmed damage. greater trip AoO, fortutious enchant AoO, vicious stomp AoO
if they try to get up, AoO (trip) them, repeat the above (sans fortuitous, which is only 1/round).
due to underfoot adept's effective size increases (you're counted as gargantuan at 12th and colossal at 16th), the only things you have difficulty tripping are things with MORE than 6 legs (due to the +4 trip CMD for each set), things that fly, and things that outright cant be tripped (oozes, swarms, etc.)
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i'm tempted to make a dex-centric one with panther style/greater trip/vicious stomp/fortuitous enchant/combat reflexes for boatloads of AoO hilarity.