A player with the Beyond Morality universal path ability is interested in becoming a demon in the future. The rituals needed to do so can be found here. Beyond Morality's exact text can be found here.
The problem is that the first demon transformation ritual specifies that you must be or become chaotic evil and Beyond Morality explicitly says that you have no alignment whatsoever. It specifies that you ignore alignment limitations for spellcasting and classes. The demon transformation ritual is not a class.
Now, by strict RAW, the player is ineligible to become a demon. I'm aware of RAW. I want to find out how others would rule this in a non-PFS home game.
The argument for it is that it's likely RAI that Beyond Morality is meant to let you ignore any and all alignment requirements, not just classes, and this is an extreme corner case.
The argument against it is that outsiders, such as demons, are literally made of their alignments, which is why they have the chaotic and evil subtypes. The chaos and evil to make a demon has to come from somewhere, so a non-chaotic evil character is literally incapable of undergoing the transformation.
Which one do you favor, and if you favor the second argument, would you be open to the idea of adding external sources of chaos and evil, such as spells with the chaos and evil descriptors, like chaos hammer and unholy aura, or creatures with the chaotic and evil subtypes or alignments?
He performs the ritual, but since he lacks the moral base needed to be a demon, he becomes an Elder Thing. An aberration akin to the Great Old Ones, though less powerful. Its nature and reasons are utterly incomprehensible to mere mortals.
Elder Things, also called Old Ones, are not incomprehensible.
That said, I would rule the ritual failed. Or say it turned him into a shoggoth equal to his hit dice.
Yeah...demons are composed of evil. The lack of alignment...I find it difficult to say that someone can become something composed of something they lack.
I would allow him to attempt it, but as the above poster suggested he would instead become some sort of aberration.
I would suggest you let him. If you think it will be Nice for the story. Make sure Lots of Evil outsiders will try to kill or turn him if he goes that way.
This is assuming you are the GM.
And consider turning him into a unique kind of demon kind of like a demon Prince in the warhammer universe.
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He's beyond morality. Better bind him as closely to alignment rules as possible.
Kidding! Really I'd just allow him to become a demon but act however he wants. Ideally he's in some fashion beyond morality and able to act out of norm anyway. I'd go the path of giving him a custom template so its nothing overpowering but still interesting. Any extra details on what the player has planned?
As Capt. Darling said, I do think it'd be part of an interesting story, but I don't quite see why evil outsiders would want to kill the player for becoming an evil outsider.
MrSin, the third ritual already gives the half-fiend template, so the fourth could change their type and appearance, give some of the SLAs from the appropriate demon. In this case, I believe the idea is to turn into a succubus. I am so very confident of my players' maturity that I plan on disallowing that particular idea. She is currently an elven druid who could best have been described as CN before Beyond Morality. The good news is that she at least wasn't the "actually CE but doesn't want to admit it" kind of CN.
Edit: To clarify: The player is not doing it to try and optimize their character or break the campaign. The character is interested because an entity they believe to be a demon lord has made an offer.
Hmm... actually, this might be tougher than it seems. o.O I don't see any problems with being both a demon and Beyond Morality (as alignments, even for Outsiders, can change... and BM ignores that anyway - also, good rule of thumb is that Mythic > Standard effects).
No, the real issue for me is doing the transformation at all - the secrets look like they're primarily explained and permitted by demon lords and the like, yes? As in beings who are very serious about getting what they want?
Beyond Morality has this line: "Attempts to detect your alignment don't return any results." So a Demon Lord, when looking in on things, wouldn't detect Chaotic Evil for the character... regardless of their actions, they just wouldn't feel evil. Now, I don't know about you, but I think that a Demon Lord might be veeeeeeery hesitant to reveal all the important details of this ritual to someone they couldn't be sure was actually committed to joining them.
In other words, I don't think the mechanics would stop this from being workable - but the personalities and behaviors of the NPCs might. Now, if the player could find some way to overcome that, then good for them - but until that happens, I'm not sure they would ever receive the knowledge they want.
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One other thing is what happens to the soul of someone who is beyond morality? Its likely the whole point of this for the demon lords is that somewhere in steps 1 to 3 the character will fail and they get the pcs soul. If the demon lord doed not have full belief they will get the soul I don't see why they woukd bargain.
As Capt. Darling said, I do think it'd be part of an interesting story, but I don't quite see why evil outsiders would want to kill the player for becoming an evil outsider...
I may have mis undestood. Is it the plan to steal the power to become a demon? Or to be given the power?
I dont think the lords of the abyss will give it to some one without a good way of making sure the investment pays of. So if that is the case i dont think the ritual should work.But if the plan is to steal the power i stand by my suggestion.
In my undestanding demons will not aceept some one else overtaking them on the inner track. And the PC is not becoming a CE outsider unless she loose the mythic trait. She is becoming a demon that is not CE.
Edit: for spells
In this case, I believe the idea is to turn into a succubus. I am so very confident of my players' maturity that I plan on disallowing that particular idea.
Could you explain this a bit more? It might help us in providing the most balanced answer for you for the specific circumstances of your campaign. I can't tell what you mean from the above statement. Do you mean that your player lacks the maturity of roleplaying a succubus? Or is it the opposite that you have confidence in their ability to play a succubus but do not want to do so for a balance/mechanics reason?
From the sounds of it to me if I trusted the player and it was in theme with how they roleplay I would likely allow them to do it as it doesn't seem to create a particular balance issue. As a demon lord granting power to a mortal I would think that it would be good to have something like a Succubus whose alignment was undetectable in my employ. This could benefit the demon lord greatly for infiltration type missions. Speaking of which... I would likely force the new Succubus to do my bidding by completing such an infiltration quest to gain my trust lest I remove the power that was just granted.
On the other hand, if it were neither in theme or I didn't trust the player's maturity to play such a character then I would likely disallow it and use the RP reasons that others above have already pointed out.
In this case, I believe the idea is to turn into a succubus. I am so very confident of my players' maturity that I plan on disallowing that particular idea.Could you explain this a bit more? It might help us in providing the most balanced answer for you for the specific circumstances of your campaign. I can't tell what you mean from the above statement. Do you mean that your player lacks the maturity of roleplaying a succubus? Or is it the opposite that you have confidence in their ability to play a succubus but do not want to do so for a balance/mechanics reason?
Ipslore is afraid the campaign will devolve into endless sexual jokes and innuendos. We have already had both succubi (that's how this whole becoming demon thing came into existence) and just general sexual themes, like existence of prostitution, rape, and the fact that those slave markets are not just to buy big burly musclemen to lift heavy things for you. So it's definitely not going from a puritanical cloister to a red light district.
Personally, I doubt the snickering would happen any more often than it already does, but I might be way too subjective.
Also, as I've already told Ipslore himself, I'm more than fine with the demon lord in question being puzzled by or downright suspicious of the evident lack of pingable evil in my druid, leading to more trials or whatever else. Wouldn't be any fun if there was no challenge. Or a lot of it. And I agree that a crafty demon lord would find more than enough uses for an underling that doesn't set off alignment alarms everywhere she goes.
Ah. See, I knew I was missing something. Yep, I'd Nix that transformation any way I could manage whether I use the excuse of balance, mechanics or RP is irrelavent. The most important reason is to save the game.
Its a shame. I'd think it could make for some excellent roleplay if it the other players could handle it. It actually sounds like a pretty interesting character concept.
Ah. See, I knew I was missing something. Yep, I'd Nix that transformation any way I could manage whether I use the excuse of balance, mechanics or RP is irrelavent. The most important reason is to save the game.
Its a shame. I'd think it could make for some excellent roleplay if it the other players could handle it. It actually sounds like a pretty interesting character concept.
I get the sentiment, but not the execution. Why lie? No one in the group would throw a tantrum, at least no one in this group. Disagree, yes, but not stomp their feet and cry foul.
Plus, nixing the transformation wouldn't exactly remove snicker-content from the game. It pretty much just comes down to whether or not Ipslore thinks I'll make my character go on a rape rampage and shove the newly upgraded body into every possible situation. And if I really wanted to do that, I could attempt it already. Party face character and her honeyed words, as a DM he'd have to rely on the same "it doesn't work because I say it doesn't work" tactics to explain why 35+ diplomacy rolls do not get my character anywhere.Nonetheless, I agree, the whole ritual business, having to perform evil actions to secure the demon's trust, adjusting to the new nature and so on... A lot of fine roleplay opportunities.
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Interesting conundrum.
First, lemme ask, what would happen if someone who is already a demon (born that way, rituals, whatever) were to take Beyond Morality? Could a Marilith take Beyond Morality and become a Marilith with no alignment?
I would say that they could. It wouldn't destroy them or make them cease to exist. It would, however, mean that they aren't quite demons anymore - but that doesn't mean they lose their powers. But, for example, a Holy Sword won't do extra damage to them now, nor would an Evil Outsider Bane sword. So it would look and sound and smell like a demon, but wouldn't exactly be a demon.
So, if you agree with that sequence of events, then the reverse should end up the same way - someone who is not a demon has Beyond Morality and then successfully completes the rituals, they should become exactly the same "almost-demon" they would have become if the events were in the other order.
As for changing alignment to CE in the first ritual, I myself would just assume that, when the Beyond Morality description mentions classes and spells, that this is not a complete list - it's only two examples of how the lack of alignment affects a character. Therefore, other things like race or creature type can benefit from this ability too. This would resolve that, for the purpose of this ritual, treat it like a spell: "If you're the target of a spell or effect (like a ritual) that is based on alignment, you're treated as the most favorable alignment when determining the spell's effect on you.". So, for the ritual, treat him like he is already CE; he only needs to undergo a year of service to his new patron demon lord.
As written it wouldn't work, as it requires the character to become CE, soak in the power of evil, and transform.
Now, she could certainly perform all the required actions, which may well have OTHERS judge her evil, including her demonic patron, but RAW, no, it won't work.
She should have taken him up on the offer, transformed, and THEN taken Beyond Morality.
==Aelryinth
On the other hand, if it were neither in theme or I didn't trust the player's maturity to play such a character then I would likely disallow it and use the RP reasons that others above have already pointed out.
I've done incubus well before, and paladin of slaughter, and necromancer. Depends heavily on the group imo. Usually dumb jokes like that time you got stuck in a sewer, became a eunuch, or your character died because evil brothel die quickly in my experience.
Another thing to consider is you can always make up your own rules for transformation and what you turn into.
Well being that we have both the player and DM in the thread I do not want to offend either one. However, if the DM believes that the transformation could make the table situation worse I think it is his responsibility to stop it regardless of reason. I do understand the point that you could just control the character to do the things he wouldn't want to become trope anyway.
From the way you both handle yourselves on the board I think it is a breath of fresh air around here. It doesn't sound like you are fighting with one another or anything like we often see. It looks like you are both looking for a positive solution.
My gut tells me as a DM I would allow it as there doesn't seem to be a balance or mechanical reason not to. I would try to handle it in a way that could create adventure hooks for the party. Maybe make it a tragic thing that would make the character (not player) regret the ritual.
If you are the GM make up your own Tier Path or have him go through a strange ritual like witches do..