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What's the ruling on this? Is there even a ruling? I know most people won't allow it because it's obviously strong, but I'm not looking for opinions - I'm looking for rules.
There are no rules that allow it. The ability allow for the earth elemental to travel this way, not someone it is holding hands with or grappling. The only way it can be a rule is if there is a rule allowing it.
I think the same question applies if you are just looking at regular burrowing.
As far as I am aware, there is no tunnel that you can follow the burrowing creature into- the ground just collapses behind it (which is fairly reasonable, since no dirt was ever removed). So if you got dragged down by a graboid, then you would be in the same situation if you struggled out halfway through.
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What you want is the Gray Disciple's Entomb power
What you want is the Gray Disciple's Entomb power
That is one of the problems with earth glide- there are a half dozen PC options...and they all have different rules.
What's the ruling on this? Is there even a ruling? I know most people won't allow it because it's obviously strong, but I'm not looking for opinions - I'm looking for rules.
Unless the earth glide ability allows you to affects someone other than yourself I don't see the issue.
Just like a porpoise could not give it's swin speed to something else neither can something give's it's 'solid ground travel speed' to something else.
The difference between swim and earth glide however is that swims movement medium is penetrable by anything. Earth glides is not.
As a GM, I have had earth elementals grapple PCs and then bury them alive via earthglide.
I would have little to no problem with PCs doing it to my NPCs.
That archetype is interesting. :)
As a GM, I have had earth elementals grapple PCs and then bury them alive via earthglide.
I would have little to no problem with PCs doing it to my NPCs.
So you just added an entomb effect to anything with Earthglide? What kind of CR change does that entail on the creatures?
Sounds like swarms of earth elementals would be the go to summons for auto win in your game.
The closest thing to this you can do without getting into a rules arguement with someone is using swallow whole, and THEN digging underground.
Bonus points if it was an eidolon that did this, and then you dismiss the eidolon while he is burrowed underground.
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The closest thing to this you can do without getting into a rules arguement with someone is using swallow whole, and THEN dig underground.
Bonus points if it was an eidolon that did this, and then you dismiss the eidolon while he is burrowed underground.
A while back I came up with the question of what happens if a summon T Rex swallows you and then it is dismissed.
Do you get left behind?PS: I was not proposing anyone actually try this because it was outside the intended use of the spell.
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I am more restrictive with earth glide than burrow. I can imagine a burrower creating tunnels, as some burrowing creatures can naturally do this. However, the tunnels are either stable or not their at all, if they want a collapsing tunnel thats a craft trap check.
For earth glide I don't allow anything to be carried with it, whether it is another creatures or any gear at all. So if the earth elemental is carrying anything it would get left behind. I might make an exception for stone or elements normally found in earth but nothing processed or built.
See, this is why I'm asking! lol
If we go with the assumption that you can't take a person with you, for logical reasons, then logic also holds that you can't take your stuff with you either, for identical logical reasons.
And in such a reading, things like Gray Disciple or the Oread Earth Glider feat become practically useless and trap options.
If we go with the assumption that you can take a person and/or stuff with you, then suddenly people will cry foul because of the potential "abuse."
See, this is why I'm asking! lol
If we go with the assumption that you can't take a person with you, for logical reasons, then logic also holds that you can't take your stuff with you either, for identical logical reasons.
And in such a reading, things like Gray Disciple or the Oread Earth Glider feat become practically useless and trap options.If we go with the assumption that you can take a person and/or stuff with you, then suddenly people will cry foul because of the potential "abuse."
The thing is complicated. For instance- the gray disciple is the ONLY ONE that discusses using it as a weapon, or really taking people with you (I think there are a couple options that let you take people with you, and they can share in the punishment when your ability runs out of use).
Also, unfortunately, no option mentions equipment, despite the fact that the list includes an oracle mystery and a monk archetype (both of which are classes that can use weapons to decent enough effect). Even the wizard and sorcerer with this option would still like their rods and headbands.
The only thing whatsoever that gives any indication that you can't take equipment is the mistaken belief that druids can't really have equipment (which is based off of a lot of bad assumptions, many of which do not apply if you use elemental shapes a lot since they can talk and use items normally, meaning you can just get equipment for that form)
See, this is why I'm asking! lol
If we go with the assumption that you can't take a person with you, for logical reasons, then logic also holds that you can't take your stuff with you either, for identical logical reasons.
And in such a reading, things like Gray Disciple or the Oread Earth Glider feat become practically useless and trap options.If we go with the assumption that you can take a person and/or stuff with you, then suddenly people will cry foul because of the potential "abuse."
The game rules make a lot of distinctions between creatures and objects. There are a whole lot of things you can do with objects on your person, that you can't do with another creature.
As to the 'scientific' explanations for this in the game world, we don't have any definitive answer other than knowing what does and doesn't work (i.e. you can do what the rules say you can do) but one possible difference is that creatures have an aura that objects do not, and certain magical effects don't cross that aura, even when the creature is being carried.
I think gear needs to go with. It would lead to terribly odd situations like "Does the food I ate for breakfast go with me? Yes? Then I eat my bag of holding before I Earth Glide! What do you mean, it doesn't go with?"
That's not a terribly good RAI/RAW interpretation, but trying to define where a player's gear starts and ends gets messy.
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See, this is why I'm asking! lol
If we go with the assumption that you can't take a person with you, for logical reasons, then logic also holds that you can't take your stuff with you either, for identical logical reasons.
And in such a reading, things like Gray Disciple or the Oread Earth Glider feat become practically useless and trap options.If we go with the assumption that you can take a person and/or stuff with you, then suddenly people will cry foul because of the potential "abuse."
That logic does not hold because your items are not another person, and the game assumes you can bring them with you. The game does not assume you can bring other creatures along unless it is stated.
As an example the cleric has a supernatural ability allowing him to teleport. It does not allow him to bring anyone else with him.
Also-->Even when grappling you and other person are not in the same square so you can't even assume they are using any holes you think you made in the ground/wall. Since you do not grant them the ability to travel you can't assume they are making their own holes or can travel through stone.
By that logic, however, a creature with a flight speed could not carry someone while flying, because carrying/grappling does not confer a flight speed.
Except they can.
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Not the same thing. Walking through stone is not the same as moving through air which you can do just by walking.
It requires a special ability which is not passed on to someone just because you touch them.
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Burrowing would make more sense because the "passenger" is not actually passing through anything. It moves material out of the way so it isn't impeded.
Do you see the difference?
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The creature may have Earth Glide, but the grappled creature does not. I would imagine the grappled creature would stop at the surface if the Earth Glider would continue to descend.
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Burrowing would make more sense because the "passenger" is not actually passing through anything. It moves material out of the way so it isn't impeded.
Do you see the difference?
Earth glide is explicitly described as a form of burrowing.
The creature may have Earth Glide, but the grappled creature does not. I would imagine the grappled creature would stop at the surface if the Earth Glider would continue to descend.
So? Nothing in the rules supports your notion that another creature can't be carried. It is mere supposition. Earth glide is simply another movement mode (burrowing specifically), and there are no movement modes in the game that specifically prohibit you from carrying someone else.
The thing is, nothing about Earth Glide says you become incorporeal or some other status that would allow you to just ignore matter.
So the arguments that support that idea are, by the flavor and rules texts, are pretty unfounded.
The only difference between Burrow and Earth Glide is that one leaves a tunnel and visibly (key word, visibly) disturbs the ground traveled through, and the other doesn't.
A crocodile (CR2) has "death roll" which allows for underwater grappling, which could be epic and exciting. A bulette is pretty tough (and has burrowing), so I could see some fun scenes happening with grabbing and dragging PC's underground.
Still, you have to consider that the risk of being underground is greater than that of being underwater (as PC's can theoretically swim). I might use such a maneuver to hook the PC's into an underground adventure, but I'd make them fight the bulette first.
Also, I don't believe it's necessary to have a hard and fast ruling on every imaginable situation in the game. Where's the thrill in having everything figured-out? This is why we have dungeon masters.
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Burrowing would make more sense because the "passenger" is not actually passing through anything. It moves material out of the way so it isn't impeded.
Do you see the difference?Earth glide is explicitly described as a form of burrowing.
The creature may have Earth Glide, but the grappled creature does not. I would imagine the grappled creature would stop at the surface if the Earth Glider would continue to descend.So? Nothing in the rules supports your notion that another creature can't be carried. It is mere supposition. Earth glide is simply another movement mode (burrowing specifically), and there are no movement modes in the game that specifically prohibit you from carrying someone else.
Being able to pass through stone like a fish moves through water is not how burrowing works. Earth glides's description of treating rock like a fish treats water basically means the creature ignores the rock when walking just like we ignore air. At no point do the rules say you can confer the ability to someone else, so they really have no way to walk through that rock. At least if it was traditional burrowing you could say a hole was left behind.
I would suggest the OP start an FAQ because he is not going to be able to prove transference of this ability by the book. If he wants to argue the ability is not actually transferred then he needs to explain from a rules perspective how the touched person can also get the benefits. So far all I am seeing is "I really want this to work". Even if he somehow convinces me and others that the intent is there the ability is still written in such a way that it will still continue to be questioned.| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
A crocodile (CR2) has "death roll" which allows for underwater grappling, which could be epic and exciting. A bulette is pretty tough (and has burrowing), so I could see some fun scenes happening with grabbing and dragging PC's underground.
Still, you have to consider that the risk of being underground is greater than that of being underwater (as PC's can theoretically swim). I might use such a maneuver to hook the PC's into an underground adventure, but I'd make them fight the bulette first.
Also, I don't believe it's necessary to have a hard and fast ruling on every imaginable situation in the game. Where's the thrill in having everything figured-out? This is why we have dungeon masters.
Having a hard rule for every situation and knowing the basics of how an ability are supposed to work are not the same thing. Can I take someone with me if I earth glide is simple. Can I use earth glide with abilities A, B and C, to do ____ and/or _____ would be an entirely different thing altogether.
Byakko, neutrinos are subatomic particles. Earth Elementals, Oreads, etc. are hardly in the same category.
Apples to oranges, at best. ;)
wraithstrike, I have my personal opinion, but I posted this in the rules forum because there are no rules on it. I think there should be. If my interpretation is wrong, that's fine. But it's too "up in the air" based on ability wording to assume one way or the other.
I agree on a FAQ. Why this thread isn't one, idk. I hit the button *shrug*
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We have been trying to get them to faq this ability for 3+ years.
There are something like 7 different powers that grant earth glide, with 7 different mechanics. Several of them involve different options for what happens when you bring someone with and then let them go. Everything from expelled harmlessly where they went in, to expelled with damage, to imprisoned in stone.
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Byakko, neutrinos are subatomic particles. Earth Elementals, Oreads, etc. are hardly in the same category.
Apples to oranges, at best. ;)wraithstrike, I have my personal opinion, but I posted this in the rules forum because there are no rules on it. I think there should be. If my interpretation is wrong, that's fine. But it's too "up in the air" based on ability wording to assume one way or the other.
I agree on a FAQ. Why this thread isn't one, idk. I hit the button *shrug*
When you FAQ something you must ask the question in the specific post you make. That is why I said you needed to make an FAQ. Basically you need to make a new thread and specifically ask the question in the post that you want people to click the FAQ on.
You asked "What's the ruling on this? Is there even a ruling?"
It should be --> Am I allowed to use earth glide and grapple to pull someone through stone?
If you have any other question you should list them also or you can make a new FAQ for those.
Another question might be--> Can I drag them into the stone and leave them there? <---I would be more specific than that.
PS: I am only saying you word it that way because they said they want things to be worded in that manner.
That's the most sound counterargument I've heard so far, Numarak. I'm still not entirely convinced though.
Wraithstrike, despite your assertions, nothing in the rules indicate that the earth elemental doesn't move earth around it (or whatever it happens to be carrying) as it glides. It merely states that it doesn't leave behind a tunnel or hole, nor does it create any ripple or other sign of its presence. That doesn't necessarily mean it is magically phasing through solid matter. It just means exactly what it says: no tunnel or hole is left behind the earth elemental, and there are no telltale signs of it burrowing beneath your feet.
It's not the least bit magical; it's just the most amazingly efficient form of burrowing ever. To my knowledge, there's nothing preventing a burrowing creature from dragging someone down with them by moving a grapple, so why should creatures with earth glide--by all accounts the best burrowers ever--be restricted?
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That's the most sound counterargument I've heard so far, Numarak. I'm still not entirely convinced though.
Wraithstrike, despite your assertions, nothing in the rules indicate that the earth elemental doesn't move earth around it (or whatever it happens to be carrying) as it glides. It merely states that it doesn't leave behind a tunnel or hole, nor does it create any ripple or other sign of its presence. That doesn't necessarily mean it is magically phasing through solid matter. It just means exactly what it says: no tunnel or hole is left behind the earth elemental, and there are no telltale signs of it burrowing beneath your feet.
It's not the least bit magical; it's just the most amazingly efficient form of burrowing ever. To my knowledge, there's nothing preventing a burrowing creature from dragging someone down with them by moving a grapple, so why should creatures with earth glide--by all accounts the best burrowers ever--be restricted?
Well if there is no hole which is how normal burrowing works then how is the other person moving through the stone?
If the earth elemental only has a hole in the square it is currently in, assuming it displaces that stone, and the rules state it leaves no hole behind it, and we know that unlike 3.5 the grappler and the person grappled no longer share the same square then where is victim going to be? It can't occupy the same space as the stone. We know this due to the rules. I asked this before but nobody answered it.
I also said burrowers can leave a hole behind them, which is why I suggested burrow to the OP. However I cant really find a rule that says burrow leaves a hole either but real life burrowing does so it makes sense to allow it.
PS: Earth elementals have burrow and earth glide, in case you are wondering why I mentioned burrow a few post ago.
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Hmm... Let's see if there's any rule against it...
"Move: You can move both yourself and your <grappled> target up to half your speed. At the end of your movement, you can place your target in any square adjacent to you."
'Drag' has a "You cannot move a creature into a square that is occupied by a solid object or obstacle" clause but I don't see one in the grapple section.
That means (a) it's RAW legal, and (b) it's also RAW legal for my barbarian to shove his enemies five foot vertically downwards through the soil or into a solid rock wall while grappling them.
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Regardless of whether it works with Earth Glide it would work with anything that has an actual Burrow speed.
Ah, I guess I can see why your opinion is a bit different then.
I've always seen earth gliding as the ability to pass through rock without interacting with or disturbing it at all, in the same way neutrinos typically don't interact with and pass through matter. Kind of like an IDCLIP mode (I just dated myself there, didn't I?).
Others creatures, lacking this special make up, naturally would be unable to pass through the solid material and would just be pulled up against it at best.
Does this mean in your opinion that someone with earth glide who is targeted by a giant throwing rocks can just glide through thrown rocks with out even moving?
Does this mean in your opinion that someone with earth glide who is targeted by a giant throwing rocks can just glide through thrown rocks with out even moving?Ah, I guess I can see why your opinion is a bit different then.
I've always seen earth gliding as the ability to pass through rock without interacting with or disturbing it at all, in the same way neutrinos typically don't interact with and pass through matter. Kind of like an IDCLIP mode (I just dated myself there, didn't I?).
Others creatures, lacking this special make up, naturally would be unable to pass through the solid material and would just be pulled up against it at best.
Are fish unaffected if you spray water at them with fire hose?
Not a good analogy. Fish cannot pass through water without interacting or disturbing water.
However a parasite can swim up the stream of urine into the penis.
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Earth Glide (Ex) When the creature burrows, it can pass through stone, dirt, or almost any other sort of earth except metal AS EASILY AS A FISH SWIMS THROUGH WATER. If protected against fire damage, it can even glide through lava. Its burrowing leaves behind no tunnel or hole, nor does it create any ripple or other sign of its presence. A move earth spell cast on an area containing the burrowing creature flings it back 30 feet, stunning it for 1 round unless it succeeds on a DC 15 Fortitude save.
See the part in caps. Even though earthglide creates no ripples, etc. It does not pass through earth without any resistance. Meaning just like fire hose has an effect on fish, stone thrown at creature with earthglide effects it.
Ironlemon...did you note I was asking the opinion of Byakko?
My reference was to his statement. Not earth glide.
Indeed I did, I just happen to agree with his view. Oh, and one more thing, if earth did not offer any resistance against creature with earthglide, then it could move downwards with same speed as free falling object.
A question to those who say earth glide does NOT "phase" through earth but instead burrows in more traditional sense. If earth elemental glides through solid block of stone, is the path it traveled through still solid or gravel?
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Now people are taking things out of context. Taking things to extremes never ends a debate here. I think everyone knows that being hit with a rock and having it pass through them is not the intent of earth glide.
I do find the semantics entertaining at times, but it never really helps. :)
The problem with thought is that he used the words interact. This may have been a bad choice of words. I don't know. However fish still interact with the water they are in. And from what your suggesting that I'm suggesting, that they can move down as fast as a free falling object, that would be the result if earth did not interact with the earth elemental.
Indeed I did, I just happen to agree with his view. Oh, and one more thing, if earth did not offer any resistance against creature with earthglide, then it could move downwards with same speed as free falling object.
A question to those who say earth glide does NOT "phase" through earth but instead burrows in more traditional sense. If earth elemental glides through solid block of stone, is the path it traveled through still solid or gravel?
To answerthis last question. Solid stone.