Are we still arguing over whether chattel slavery is an evil deed?
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Chattel slavery, serfdom, wage-slavery, all forms of class exploitation are evil, Mama Kelsey and your halfling paladin should burn them all down!
Vive le Galt!
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Mama Kelsey's halfling paladin lies a-molderin' in the grave,
While weep the sons of bondage whom she ventured all to save,
But tho she lost her life while struggling for the slave,
Her soul is marching on!Glory, glory, hallelujah!
Glory, glory, hallelujah!
Glory, glory, halleluuuuuujah,
Her soul is marching on!
They will have to pay us wages, now, the wages of their sin,
They will have to bow their foreheads to their shorter kith and kin,They will have to give us house-room, or the roof shall tumble in!
As we go marching on.
Glory, glory, hallelujah!
Glory, glory, hallelujah!
Glory, glory, hallelujah,
As we go marching on.
Vive le Galt!!!
Btw, Mama Kelsey, I just started a campaign in Cheliax. The party doesn't include any paladins, but it does have three halflings.
Burn it down!
Vive le Pezzack!
Something tells me that's exactly why people are playing halflings.
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This all seems a bit random to me, so I'll just respond to the last bit with one of my favorite Tolkien quotes:
Is capitalism a necessary evil ? Giving money to the poor is helping them or making them addict to free money ? The bully opress the weak or teach them to be strong ? Good can come from evil and evil can come from good ? Who has the right answers ?
'Thus even as Eru spoke to us shall beauty not before conceived be brought into Eä, and evil yet be good to have been.’
But Mandos said: ‘And yet remain evil. To me shall Fëanor come soon.’
I will answer with a favorite quote too
Prepare for trouble!
Make it double!
To protect the world from devastation!
To unite all peoples within our nation!
To denounce the evils of truth and love!
To extend our reach to the stars above!
Jessie! James!
Team Rocket, blast off at the speed of light!
Surrender now or prepare to fight!
Meowth: Meowth! That's right!
Truth and love have been denounced as evil, those sneak things
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Law does not equate to human law, it equates to Order, the opposite of Chaos.
The second half of your alignment is what you are, the first part is how you go about it - I have no idea why some people are placing 'orderliness' above 'goodliness'.
A law that leads to evil and suffering is a bad law, regardless of it's origin, so a LG character is going to oppose that law with every fiber of her being.
@Wayne : but he will do so without causing Chaos.
However, in pathfinder, freedom, revolution, rebellion and such are virtues and acts from Chaos.
As such, I firmly believe that a paladin helping or provoking a slave rebellion should lose its powers, EXCEPT if the slaves in question are enduring evil actions (because freeing them would then mean to help people in need, an act of pure compassion).
I also believe that if slaves rebels without a similar good reason, paladins should actually crush that rebellion because it's disruptive for the Order in place : hierarchy and castes are the main features of Lawful societies, for example India.
Instead of causing a rebellion, or killing slave-owners, a paladin should instead try to improve their living conditions from the inside.
Of course, the situation is different in a Lawful Evil society, such as Cheliax, in which paladins should seek to replace the present government by at least a non-Evil one, if not Good. But slavery haven't something to do with it, rather the society in its core and beliefs.
(Sorry about the racist slur in the latter. Alas, this is America; even our abolitionists were often times bigots.)
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@Wayne : but he will do so without causing Chaos.
However, in pathfinder, freedom, revolution, rebellion and such are virtues and acts from Chaos.
Agreed. I love Chaotic Goodness
As such, I firmly believe that a paladin helping or provoking a slave rebellion should lose its powers, EXCEPT if the slaves in question are enduring evil actions (because freeing them would then mean to help people in need, an act of pure compassion).
Agreed, with one exception, paladins should never seek a rebellion, revolt or nothing disruptive were could result in the disruption of order and chaos. They should free the slaves, trying to minimize the revolt, doing quietly and discreetly. Failing that, minimize the following disorder and not taking part of the rebellion. Failing that, making sure to atone afterwards. Causing a revolt to free slaves from evil captors is a good act, and a act of compassion, but also a chaotic act. The paladin would not instantly loose hers powers, but the will if not atoning afterwards.
I also believe that if slaves rebels without a similar good reason, paladins should actually crush that rebellion because it's disruptive for the Order in place : hierarchy and castes are the main features of Lawful societies, for example India.
There are cultures and cultures, what can be perceived as slavery in the eyes of one culture, is serfdom or caste system in the eyes of another.
Instead of causing a rebellion, or killing slave-owners, a paladin should instead try to improve their living conditions from the inside.
They can do so much more, they can enforce and affiliate to the legal abolitionists from the region . If the abolitionists are clandestine, they could help them in legal channels, by asking favors for governors and lords instead of asking rewards to further the abolitionist cause, they can search men and women of political power that are sympathizers with the abolitionist cause and asking them to step forward the cause in the court. Slavery in Brazil ended that way, with clandestine abolitionists and men and women of influence that spoke in favor of the abolitionist cause. This sounds a lot of politics for a standard PF game, but this can only be the background to the adventure, like, save the captive abolitionist princess, or do a perilous expedition for the count and in exchange he speaks for the abolitionist cause with the king. Lots of adventcha'!
Of course, the situation is different in a Lawful Evil society, such as Cheliax, in which paladins should seek to replace the present government by at least a non-Evil one, if not Good. But slavery haven't something to do with it, rather the society in its core and beliefs.
In the case of evil societies the paladin have two choices: Going in legal channels, or simply ignoring the authority of the evil society based in the fact that he only recognizes authority from, let's say, Andoran, and find Cheliax authority illegitimate.
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@Wayne : but he will do so without causing Chaos.
However, in pathfinder, freedom, revolution, rebellion and such are virtues and acts from Chaos.
Freedom does not equal Chaos per se, any more than Tyranny equals Order. Demons are the epitome of Chaos, and most could not give a flying goblin's butt about 'freedom' as a concept, except perhaps their own freedom from moral boundaries. They love taking slaves and crushing others under their cloven feet with just as much aplomb as Devils.
A Lawful Good society can have a multitude of freedoms that are protected under the law which the government could not intrude upon, such as freedom of speech, freedom of worship, etc. I contend that a Lawful Good society would be more likely to have things such as a Constitutions and Bills of Rights clearly defining the limits of governments and that serve as a bulwark against tyrannical overreach by the government, ensuring that the people have some of redress for their grievances.
As such, I firmly believe that a paladin helping or provoking a slave rebellion should lose its powers, EXCEPT if the slaves in question are enduring evil actions (because freeing them would then mean to help people in need, an act of pure compassion).
Unless the slaves in question were justly sentenced to slavery for criminal acts, I do not think the Paladin would be in the wrong for wanting to help free them.
And indeed, he would probably stand up against former slaves trying to take bloody vengeance against their former masters, but he would also stand against the former masters trying to recapture the former slaves.
I also believe that if slaves rebels without a similar good reason, paladins should actually crush that rebellion because it's disruptive for the Order in place : hierarchy and castes are the main features of Lawful societies, for example India.
What better reason would there be for slaves to rebel other than the fact that they are considered someone's property and can be forced to work on pain of torture? I cannot think of a better reason to rebel.
There is nothing in the Paladin's code or in the Lawful Good Descriptor stating that Paladins are obligated to uphold tyrannical and unjust laws, or maintain the order of tyrannical societies. Caste-based societies and slave-based societies tend towards the tyrannical, and I do not think a Paladin should be struck down for opposing them.
FINALLY
There is nothing in the Paladin's Code or the Lawful Good descriptor that states that Paladins would not be for revolutions, revolts and uprisings. While a GM might reasonably rule that Lawful people are less likely to engage in revolutions if they can enact the changes that they want through the existing, I would argue that the Lawful people will engage in revolution as a last resort when no other option avails itself.
And an Aside: Would a Lawful Evil general's alignment change if he engaged in a coup against his government in order to install himself as the ultimate authority of his nation?
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And if the situation is such as of without slavery everybody dies ? No one wants to run farms, so the government force criminals to work on farm. there was a apocalyse and there aren't any other country to buy food. Live with slaves or die free ?
I would be forced to ask why on earth are slaves the only ones who can do the farming?
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FINALLYThere is nothing in the Paladin's Code or the Lawful Good descriptor that states that Paladins would not be for revolutions, revolts and uprisings. While a GM might reasonably rule that Lawful people are less likely to engage in revolutions if they can enact the changes that they want through the existing, I would argue that the Lawful people will engage in revolution as a last resort when no other option avails itself.
Yeah, in the end of my post, i contradicted myself, but you put my idea straight nicely, Lawfull Good (and lawfull evil) can and will back revolutions, revolts or uprisings.
But they couldn't do better than the Chaotic Good, leave to the LGooders, leave it with the professionals.
And if the situation is such as of without slavery everybody dies ? No one wants to run farms, so the government force criminals to work on farm. there was a apocalyse and there aren't any other country to buy food. Live with slaves or die free ?
Well, that's a problem for the Lawful Gooders, Chaotic Gooders would help them directly, being their leader in time of need and mounting a pretty good subsistence mechanism, making sure that no one will suffer or hunger. Then it would come the Lawful Gooders with their boring laws and codices. Laws are useful, but only when you can remember them from memory.
Starvation is rarely caused by a lack of possible food sources, but by problems in distribution and organization. Of course people go hungry during revolutions, just as they do under inefficient social systems. The end of slavery in most societies has not led to sudden growth in worker productivity; rather, it is associated with economic slowdown, falling wages, high unemployment. Slavery is not a fair system, but it is a system, and replacing it with no system results in economic damage until a new system is in place.
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I would be forced to ask why on earth are slaves the only ones who can do the farming?
Because no one want to do it.
Pretty much. Everyone is starving, but no one is willing to farm to feed themselves? Or to profit from the high prices food will bring in such a shortage?
There is no time for price discussion, people willing to work are charging oustrageous prices that will make poorer people starve (who are too old and too disabled to do it themselves), the more fast and righteous way is to make the criminals do it forced, with time it evoluted to slave work.
To farm, you need land, water, tools, and manpower. Willingness is a lesser consideration.