I am building a campaign from scratch centered around the party of PCs being transported through unknown means to another world/plane/dimension/time where they are seen as the fulfilling of a mythic prophecy. I want to create a real sense of isolation at the beginning of the campaign to contrast the familiar, comfortable world they come from with one where they are truly foreign entities.
To accomplish this, I want to have the NPCs in the new world speak a language that is unrelated to anything from their homeworld. I'd like to have the PCs gradually learn parts of the language as they progress in order to better communicate with the locals and have a plot device to send them around places that might help them learn. My question is this: how would you roleplay the interactions before they understand the language and how would you allow a PC to begin to translate and understand words prior to the aid of magic spells?
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Linguistics skill, until they can gain a level and put a rank into it.
Use a real world language.
Use Diplomacy and Sense Motive checks whenever they try to communicate with and understand the natives. Diplomacy for communication: raise the DCs by 5 or more to reflect the fact that body language can be understood by anyone, as well as tone of voice, but without a shared language it's hard sometimes to convince someone to do something. Use Sense Motive for understanding the natives, as you can get hunches and whatnot with it. When someone puts a rank into Linguistics, give them the full language if they want it and spend the rank on it.
SlimGauge wrote: Linguistics skill, until they can gain a level and put a rank into it. I'll be explicit here. I do not want them to simply hit level 2 and become fluent in a language that has no root in anything they know or could potentially know from the previous world. What I would like are ideas on how to roleplay such a scenario.
I figure there will be a lot of Sense Motive and Perception checks to try and discern the NPCs attitudes. Maybe the PCs will try and find someone that isn't hostile to teach them basics through pointing and saying words the way you would with a child. I plan to have the BBEG talk to them through dreams in the common tongue they know so that at least something familiar exists even if it is only when they sleep. Possibly a library where they can use their Linguistics checks to learn from picture books.
I only want this to last for the first couple of levels to give them a sense of struggle and something to overcome. Eventually magic will be able to give them fluency beyond what they can obtain through more creative means. I'm looking for plot ideas that could be employed to help this or creative uses of skills to convey information without knowledge of the language.
Houserule where it takes 3 or 4 ranks of linguistics and a certain amount of time/exposure to become fluent in a new language?
EDIT: Or that the one rank rule is for languages when you can find a fluent teacher, and require the players to make deciphering checks and a certain number of ranks before they can learn the one that no one can teach them?
Also, there are such spells as comprehend languages and tongues to consider.
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Perhaps make then quest for the Rosetta Stone ?
The Golux wrote: Houserule where it takes 3 or 4 ranks of linguistics and a certain amount of time/exposure to become fluent in a new language?
EDIT: Or that the one rank rule is for languages when you can find a fluent teacher, and require the players to make deciphering checks and a certain number of ranks before they can learn the one that no one can teach them?
Also, there are such spells as comprehend languages and tongues to consider.
I am leaning towards this interpretation for learning the language. I'm perfectly fine if they want to use their spell slots for Comprehend Languages as it only lasts for 10 minutes per level but doesn't allow them to speak it. Maybe they could get a bonus when they talk while under it since its a bit more effective using pure body language when you can understand the subjects reactions.
Later on down the road they may come across a fluent teacher that has knowledge of their tongue or something relatable. Like a human Rosetta Stone quest that was mentioned earlier. The party figuring out how to actually get to that person could be an interesting plot device.
EDIT: And in regard to Tongues, it requires at least a level 4 Bard, 5 Wizard, or 6 Sorcerer by which time they should be able to speak in a passing manner.
I already houserule linguistics to take two ranks to gain a language, and only give an extra language every +2 int mod for the exact reasons you state Ogadim. I'm going to have to second what Golux pointed out. If you want the language barrier to be half the issue it is in real life, you'll need to handle spells like Tongues. Do you know if anyone will be playing a full caster?
Is one of the players a cleric? If they are then you are going to really do him over on this if his god or a closely related god able to grant him spells is not available.
If his god is active on this other world, then their priesthood would have the same Spiritual language (Celestial, Infernal whatever) as that is based on the home plane of the worshipped god, not the plane/planet that the worshippers happen to be on.
This gives you an option to have the players have a link to a small number of individuals with whom at least one member of the party can plausibly share a common language. This will let you drop adventure hooks, general advice about the setting and language tutoring without cutting into your general concept that the new planet/plane itself is totally alien, and that there are very few people that they can communicate with.
I would then see how it goes. If the players are enjoying the challenge of not being able to communicate with the vast majority of the local population then 3 or 4 points of linguistics should be fair to learn the local lingo, if they are not, a few weeks downtime at the local abbey (which might be an adventure to find/get to in itself) for realisms sake and 1 point of linguistics should do the trick.
Ogadim wrote:
I'll be explicit here. I do not want them to simply hit level 2 and become fluent in a language that has no root in anything they know or could potentially know from the previous world. What I would like are ideas on how to roleplay such a scenario.
Be careful about what you allow outside of languages then. There are a number of classes, archetyps, etc that give the character access to information that is sort of just plucked from the aether. I've allowed those instances to be used as an argument for learning a language they haven't had a lot of access to yet. So just be careful of a PC trying to use that argument, then you should be golden with the house rules you've mentioned already.
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My last DM ran linguistics like this:
1) 1 rank = +1 language, this only applied to those listed as bonus languages for your race. Humans and such had to choose 6 specific languages for this to apply to.
2) 2 ranks = +1 language, this applied to all other common languages listed in the core rulebook.
3) 4 ranks = +1 language, this applied to all other languages (weird new race/ancient dead language/world hopping pcs/etc...).
So if you spent 2 skill points in linguistics you could either gain 2 new racial bonus languages, OR 1 new core rulebook language, OR 1/2 of a new uncommon/obscure language(kind of how the alternate favorite class bonuses work).
I think that you're spending too much time worrying about the language and not the feeling of isolation. If you want to develop a sense of isolation you should focus on creating different customs and cultures. If you're still really worried about them learning a new language then make a language progression chart and as they're exposed to the language make them roll linguistics checks to see how much they've learned.
I don't have them handy and probably should not copy paste them here but you may want to look up the Midnight campaign setting. Basically, they break the ability to understand/speak and read/write a language into different levels, something like pigeon, basic advanced or whatever with some languages being complex enough that understanding/speaking at the basest level is simply not possible.
Another thing to possibly try is to perhaps look up some words from a made-up language such as Tolkien's elven or the Goa'uld language from Stargate. In my recent recent game, our DM meshed Golarion with Stargate and, before we picked up the language, there were a couple encounters with us just walking around and our bard looking at everyone and waving while saying "Kree", pause "Kree". It was pretty entertaining.
I'm enjoying a lot of these ideas. There will be multiple facets that should help give a feeling of isolation. The language will be one of them at first as they spend the first few levels picking up pieces of it before becoming passingly fluent. The prophecy that they are a part of is an ancient one in this world that has vastly different interpretations (as all good prophecies should) which will lead to drastically different reactions from the populace to their presence. The fact that they will be mythic as time goes on will also lead them to be treated differently than the normal folk.
I am building this campaign entirely from scratch and don't have PCs chosen by my players yet since I am still in the building process. I want the beginning to be a Lost World theme until they can acclimate themselves and begin to uncover their destiny and those that are manipulating their path.
At the moment, since they will be entering this world at level 1 and wouldn't have the opportunity to take a Linguistics rank towards this new language, I believe a first rank would allow them some basic reading. Such as the names of buildings (Inn, Weapons, Armor, Guardhouse, etc.). A 2nd rank will allow them to speak a broken version of the language to communicate basic ideas (sleep, buy/sell, help) without having to pantomime the idea or guess at words. A 3rd rank will allow them to speak passingly. Any ranks beyond that allow for reading texts in libraries, communicating complex ideas, understanding sarcasm and plays on words, and things of that nature. Of course, Comprehend Languages and Tongues can help in this matter if they don't want to invest skill ranks.
Do you speak a foreign language the PCs don't? If so, use that. If not, I don't think it's going to be practical to fake it. Making someone roll dice every time they talk to an NPC may discourage roleplaying, and just make the campaign much more hack and slash. Or 1 PC will become the interpreter, and do all the talking for everyone else.
Have you discussed this campaign with your players?
Make it a language that does not rely on spoken words. Comprehend language effects can only help with the spoken words or actual written words.
If your foreign race has an aspect that the PCs cannot match or cannot be expected to interpret easily, that's all you need. Can the foreigners alter skin color? The slightest shading of pale or darkness could be easily read by a native but missed by others. What does it mean when they make the same sound and the shading changes around their lips? Nose? Over the eyes?
Do the PCs have to start holding their breath and taking nonlethal damage to get the right shade of blue or paleness to their face? Do they have to slap themselves or pinch their cheeks really hard to get the right amount of redness to convey polite respect when talking to someone who could get them in real trouble?
Do the foreigners give off pheromones that only a creature with scent can detect (and even then not understand)? Even if it's strong enough to be noticed by a PC, what does it mean when you say they smell jasmine and honeysuckle while the merchant's eyes turn gold and his cheeks flush pink?
Do they have tentacles like an illithid, using complex writhing movements to convey urgency and scale? Do they speak in higher frequency than the PCs can hear? Sure they could have some words and sounds to crudely convey things, but actual conveyance of details will be very hard.
I believe the dabus from Planescape's City of Sigil spoke in an unusual manner like this. They used rebus puzzles, forming pictures in the air that functioned as words but only for those smart enough to figure them out.
For instance, if one were to impart 'Cold iron sword' it could be as simple as saying, 'You see an iron, like one used to smooth clothing, but instead of steam or hot coals, it has frost on it. The next symbol is a sword.' 'Cold Iron' + 'Sword'
Or it could be tougher, "It creates several symbols. You see a piece of coal. A vial labelled 'Dye', a man with a polishing cloth kneeling before another man with clean boots accepting a coin, and a sword." 'Coal-dye-earn sword'
You could make it even tougher by not telling them it's a piece of coal. Instead only saying that they see a chalky black rock, or a liquid staining a cloth, or a rapier.
If someone they're looking for is at the Naughty Pirate Inn, they might see: An oblong circle taller than wide (a zero or 'naught'), a plus sign in front of a capital T (Naught-Tee), a steamy pie with a slice missing with a plus sign next to a rodent or mouse (Pie+rat=Pirate)
Another dabus saying the same thing might show a knot, a cup of steamy liquid (tea) and a man with an eyepatch, pegleg, and hook for a hand.
Simple directions could just be indicated with an arrow pointing left or right or up or down the street.
I wouldn't allow INT checks to solve the puzzles necessarily. You might allow them to identify a symbol however. In other words, don't roll and say, "Cold-iron sword', Instead roll for each symbol and they can figure our what it is, but they still need to put it together. "Well, that chalky rock look like a piece of coal, and that rapier is a blade, or a sword, or a weapon. That cup looks warm, like the herbal tea you see for sale in the local cafes."
If you can figure out locations and directions and things that might be important, you can actually draw out or prepare cards with common rebus puzzles to use during the game.
Making them take multiple ranks is a bad idea, imho. I'd say leave it at one rank to learn a language. If you want a slower process, then just explain that to the players. As long as they spend one rank or plan to spend one rank in a level or two, then they'll slowly become proficient in the language.
Though, I have concerns this is one of those ideas that seems "neat" and ends up just being a massive headache to the players. Especially if you toss puzzles in there (which are always tricky). It does seem like this could easily discourage a lot of roleplaying and lead to a lot of frustration if they try.
Drachasor wrote: Though, I have concerns this is one of those ideas that seems "neat" and ends up just being a massive headache to the players. Especially if you toss puzzles in there (which are always tricky). It does seem like this could easily discourage a lot of roleplaying and lead to a lot of frustration if they try Failing to understand the language in this case is no different from not speaking the language in any other case. They just spend some time looking around, find a different inhabitant, or just don't get some key information that might have made things easier.
Puzzles are always tricky to place. You want them to be a challenge but if it's the only way forward then the adventure can grind to a halt if the PCs are not able to solve it. Fortunately, this is just a communications puzzle and not like solving the password at the door to Moria. Of course, failing there would have just made the party's journey much longer and required a different route to their destination, taking the shortcut through Moria was just a bonus for solving the 'riddle'.
You do have to trust that your players enjoy solving puzzles and that the sense of accomplishment they feel from actually solving them is worth the effort, but if you've explained that this is an integral part of the campaign you have designed, then (assuming you went the rebus approach) they might actually appreciate the effort and time you put into the puzzles and design rather than just saying "You don't understand what they're saying until level 9."
I am also against making them spend extra skill points. There should be benefits to having the ranks even if the PCs cannot completely perform the necessary communication because of physical deficiency, such as being able to interpret broader patterns, but the loss of the points could hurt them overall. Since you plan to have them learn over time, just tell them when they do. Otherwise one PC with spare points might just focus them all early on and just play the interpreter role and then it's really no different from any other time one PC speaks a language the others don't.
Pizza, it is pretty different when they players are on a new world. They can't go to someone else because EVERYONE speaks a language they don't know.
Puzzles are difficult in many ways. Often the DM makes something "obvious" to him, but not nearly so obvious to the players. Some players just don't like puzzles at all. Some players might find them easy (assuming they aren't the more typical puzzle that is "obvious"). Even with feedback it can be easy for a language puzzle to waste a lot of time and involve relations that make sense to the DM but don't make sense to the players.
Have to say, your examples on language puzzles don't make a lot of sense if you consider the fact a different language is going to have its own relations between words, parts of words, and other words in the language. And I think players could find a lot of them frustrating more than anything.
I am not saying this couldn't work with the right group. I am just saying that stuff like this is something you need to be very, very careful about. Make sure your entire group is on board and that they'll appreciate it. Also have a backup plan in case the idea ends up being more fun than the practice (which I suspect would be the case). This seems like something most groups wouldn't like because it will literally slow all RPing outside of internal player RP down to a tiny crawl even for basic info on stuff.
Multiple skillpoints is also really punishing for classes that don't get many. If anything I'd lean towards giving everyone the language for free after a suitable time.
Take some time and come up with a value system tied to these alien realities. Read voyage to Arcturus to warm up. Then pre think some trigger and reactions. What is a good life well lived on this world. Who decides things in a community and why? Look up some basic anthropological texts and start with some questions from there. How does anatomy influence culture and vice versa.
Advices and queries #17 is good too.
Excellent ideas all around and I will have to look into some of the references you guys gave. I am starting to warm up to the 1 point in Linguistics method again, but I believe I will restrict when they can do that to when a story opportunity opens giving them ample time to study in a place appropriate for learning a language.
Prior to that point, I think I will make an early quest reward where the party goes to a swamp witch (actually Wizard since it needs Comprehend Language for the treasure, but colloquially known as such) who wears an amulet with a fish inside it that can act as a universal translator. I'll say it is a rare version of a blind mimic fish that can speak and repeat any language it has heard. The party will have the option of either fighting the swamp witch for hers or try to convince her to help them make one. Since they won't have the Craft Wonderous Item feat until 3rd level, the witch will send them on a quest to retrieve the correct fish, fight some monster that took something of hers (as a payment, which the party can choose to keep if they forego the mission), and then take a few days to create a copy of the amulet that the party can then use for communication by making the fish permanently have Comprehend Languages to complement its natural Tongues-like ability.
This should give me some time to see if they enjoy pantomiming their ideas and being resourceful in town to get what they want. The more creative they get the more rewarding I am willing to be, but if they find it tedious as some have suggested, I'll hook a plot line to get them to visit the witch and quest for the universal translator item.
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