Well, I was exited as soon as I first saw the variant rule for using armor as damage reduction. To me this option made a lot more sense. I recently started a campaign(?) with a couple of my friends, whom I will refer to as Nikoni-sama and Android, and we decided we wanted to try out this new variant. Nikoni-sama is GMing for us and allowed us to start with some very extravagant backgrounds. Given our characters history's we were allowed to start with some pretty nice equipment, including full plate armor for Android's character. Now with this DR system for armor Android's fighter could scarcely get hit at all by the relatively squishy monsters we were fighting in our first couple of encounters, while my sorcerer was getting pummeled. Nikoni-sama is worried about this, wondering whether this a flaw in the system. Is this going to have to break down into Warriors vs Mages? Or is their another answer? Is it simply because we just have access to armor well above our level? Will it even out as we level up more?
The problem starts with weapons with small hit dice. If a rogue hits you with a d3 weapon he won't damage you at all.
It looks good on paper but it isn't going to work out well in the long run.
Weak Damage is the bane of the system which is understandable. A 3 foot nothing doing light jabs isn't going to do much to a guy in head to toe metal.
One of the rules we added was Called Shots to bypass armor.
beyond that Weak creatures need to start thinking. Drop him in a pit, use Traps that are considered Size Large (Swinging Log covered in spikes sort of thing) or just wrestle him down and tie him up.
It's not too much different than how you would have creatures with a low chance to hit vs. someone with really high AC.
Under the regular system your Plate wearing buddy is clocking in at close to 20 AC or higher. How many monsters at your current level would hit that? Compare that to how much damage he is taking at the moment and it's probably coming in around the same.
The big difference is when you run into an Ogre for the first time or a guy with a Magic weapon. Both of those are going to completely ignore that Plate Mail.
So, what I'm getting from this is that yes , the problem will sort itself out as we continue leveling up and fighting stronger enemies. Sounds like plate mail is just too good with a DR system at level 1.
Plate mail in the regular system is astounding at level 1.
So, what I'm getting from this is that yes , the problem will sort itself out as we continue leveling up and fighting stronger enemies. Sounds like plate mail is just too good with a DR system at level 1.
it is, but it's also pretty over powered at level 1 in the regular system. Most critters would be needing a Natch just to hit him.
DR system they need a Crit to hurt him. Pretty much the same thing.
Have your DM put you up against a CR 1 creature that is Size Large and see how it holds up.
that or a Swarm of tiny or diminutive critters
or an ooze
actually try fighting Duergar. CR 1/3 but they come with Enlarge person
Yeah, at first I thought that the DR rules in the Ultimate Combat were a great idea. But then I started looking at it more. It would be better if armor stays the same AC-wise, but in addition to the AC modifier, also grant some DR. Maybe half (round down) of the total Armor bonus (so enchantments and the like might help a bit, too). So a +2 AC from armor also grants 1 DR. It gives armor a bit of a boost and makes it remain more viable (and not become trivial compared to high DEX characters).
I think armor as DR helps more in games with a heavier Fire-arms presence since armor as AC really does not do much to fire-arms (which conveniently is in the same book)
RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Be careful, it also breaks down at high levels.
Damage scales so wildly with level that it's very difficult to make an armor as DR system that stays relevant at all levels.
At first level you could be fighting anything from giant rats that do a d4 to orcs with greataxes doing d12+4. Decent armor DR means you are invincible to the rat, and it works OK versus the orc.
Now skip ahead 10 levels. You're fighting things like elementals that do 40 per hit. Suddenly even magic armor is nearly pointless, as each hit just blows through your DR like tissue paper. Or, you have a system where magic armor bonuses give you a ton of DR, and now your DR 30 means you can take on entire armies of low level troops and they have no chance to even slightly scratch you.
As written, the armor as DR system makes the high-Dex character comparatively even better at high levels. His high AC will prevent more damage than the "tank"'s tiny(by then) DR.
Be careful, it also breaks down at high levels.
Damage scales so wildly with level that it's very difficult to make an armor as DR system that stays relevant at all levels.
Eh, it's still free hit points with every hit. What a high level game with armor as DR really lacks is Improved Dodge, Greater Dodge, Greater Two-Weapon Defense, etc. Also, Combat Expertise and fighting defensively become a lot more relevant, since you have an easier time hitting your opponents, and much moreso, do not want to be hit.
|
RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
|
That feels right. The rat is less of a threat.
DR that becomes insignificant in the face of high damage per hit may be addressed by increasing DR with armor skill/proficiency, through feats, class features, or skills, or as Ryric suggested, magical enhancement. One consequence is that the army of low level foes can't hurt you individually, they have to work together. Is it really materially different against the low level foes than your armor and its magical enhancement making you harder to "hit"?
A fighter with an AC of 50 facing a unit of 1000 1st level archers is taking ~50d8 damage a round. A fighter with DR 25 is taking nothing. That's what I mean about stuff breaking down at high levels - low level foes can't hurt you, even on a critical, no matter how much they work together. Or, your DR is so weaksauce that you yearn for having a decent AC.
I'm not saying armor as DR can't work; I've played Iron Heroes where it's a central part of the system. I'm just saying that messing with something as fundamental as armor=AC changes things unexpectedly all across the game. I'm also saying at high levels I'd rather be the Dex guy with 5-8 extra points of AC than the armor guy with 10 points of DR. The extra AC will prevent a lot more damage over time than the DR will.
When 3.5 Unearthed Arcana presented "Armor as DR" rules, several DM's I knew were very excited about the prospect. However, I quickly noted several problems with the system:
1-everyone hits more often. This doesn't seem too bad at first, since you'll be taking less damage per hit, but it makes iterative attacks more likely to succeed, and critical hits more likely to be confirmed, which will greatly depreciate the benefit of the DR.
Further, this allows you to reduce accuracy to gain other benefits. Everyone can fight defensively, for example. If (as I recall 3.5 had it), Plate Armor becomes +4 AC and DR 4/-, the AC of a plate wearer is 4 lower than it would be normally. With only 2 ranks in Acrobatics, someone attacking the plate wearer could take -4 to hit to increase their own AC by 3 points. Throw in Madu Shields, Combat Expertise, Crane Style, and the ilk to make this even crazier.
Not to mention Power Attack, which makes the whole exercise pointless by turning that bonus accuracy into extra damage to overcome the DR!
2-characters who wear light armor take a lower hit to AC than heavy armor wearers. True, they get less DR, but as I pointed out already, there are lots of ways to counter the "advantage" of heavy armors already in the game. And then there are classes that don't use armor at all, who get AC bonuses that don't involve physical armor.
I'll also second the point made by a previous poster that juggling the effectiveness of DR at all levels of play, when the game features opponents with lots of attacks that deal low damage as well as opponents who have few attacks, but hit like a truck. DR is better against the first category, AC is better against the second.
A better rule, I think, would have heavier armors provide a penalty to confirm critical hits, if you feel that armor should physically block damage in some visible way.
You need to add some version of level based AC bonus if you are using armor as DR but not AC (or less AC). Make sure that the "Dex" guy who wears lighter armor (or none) gains a greater benefit from it.
As far as the armor itself, I like the idea that it retains some of its AC as a "passive defense" a la GURPS. Something like 1/3 round down of armor bonus, so Studded Leather grants DR only, and Full Plate grants +3 AC. For the DR, I think full armor bonus makes the most sense, and just let greater damage of larger creatures do the job of blowing through it (rather than a bypass system like UC).
Ideally I would introduce specific weapon advantages vs armor type. A normal longsword wielded by a normal dude hitting a guy in Full Plate shouldn't do any damage without a crit. But, a warhammer wielded by a trained warrior should do something.
One of any d20 type game's biggest flaws to me is the item dependency of defense versus the relative item independence towards accuracy by comparison.
If you change out AC for damage reduction, you end up with absurdly easy to hit characters. At low level they become tough to hurt, at high level DR negligible compared to the average swing of a beast at that CR that can always hit.
If you are going to trade out armor bonus to AC for DR, you need a way to effectively bolster the defense of a character, hopefully not in an item dependent way, and hopefully it counts as an armor type bonus still to keep the rest of the complex item and spell-buff type system from breaking apart.
Also of concern, if armor class stays roughly similar in totals to the normal system, a level 20, and a +5 full plate suit can equate to DR 9 base + 4 level + 5 enhancement = 18/armor DR, balance will be swayed heavily, fights will last longer, defense will become better than it is now, etc etc etc.
**Edited to correct math.
I say good. In Pathfinder, rocket tag is the order of the day, quick spike damage ends fights, and things rarely outlast a round or two even at 20th level.
That being said, one thing few DMs force, for sake of balancing AC scales, is to actually force the penalties of armor to their fullest extent. And i'm not talking about movement, weight, and check penalty.
I'm talking about fatigue for sleeping in it, ringworm for wearing it too long without taking a bath, penalties to saving throws for traversing intense terrains for climate, and most importantly, donning time and presence of assistants. You start truly enforcing that, and suddenly there will be entire sessions where fighters will opt out of their tank-plate in favor of temporary mobility.
Also with an ambush, roughly relative CR fights won't seem like auto hits because the PCs aren't geared up. The disadvantage will exist, but not be altogether end of game.
Rather than simply complaining however, I do offer you a possible homebrew solution!
------------------------------------------------------------------
XI: Parry Rules for Trained Defense
The Item Dependency Problem:
In D20 games, there becomes an expectation that to stay on par with unequipped monsters, a character is expected to possess certain items by a certain level or become woefully inadequate. While this by no means stops every issue at hand, it hits what we feel to be the biggest issue, the abysmally low defense of an unequipped character in relation to his offense.
The hope is that this fix does not negate the value of being equipped, as it does not stack with armor, but it makes the penalty of being unequipped somewhat less severe.
The fix:
Based on the type of armor proficiency, start off with +1, 2, 3, or 4 armor type bonus to AC when not wearing armor(or with using the Armor as Damage Reduction variant), because it represents the natural ability to block an attack in addition to actually dodging it(dex bonus).
Proficiencies: No armor: +1, light: +2, medium: +3, heavy: +4.
Every 4 levels, +1 to that bonus, maxing out at +5 more by level 20. +6,7,8,9 totals by 20th level.
Overlap, not stack: If armor provides a better bonus, use it, do not stack. If armor is worn, apply it to flatfooted, but parry to normal.
Flatfooted and Touch: Parry bonuses do not apply to flatfooted or touch AC.
Implications:
Light armor or no armor-wielding classes may seem to be making out well here, except that monks and mage types typically find work arounds via low level buff spells or items anyway.
High dex types with heavy armor proficiency might seem to be making out well also, except that fighters would have reason for a high dexterity with armor training anyway, and other classes with heavy armor tend to not be able to afford high dex in the point buy system. But yes, if you have a high dex character with heavy armor proficiency who would not be able to benefit from a high dex in armor anyway, that character would experience a slight advantage in this system.
What will be encouraged and justified, is to truly incur the penalties for strapping on armor: check penalties, donning times, assistance, social issues (full plate at a court ball), terrain/climate save penalties, etc.
Also, the thematic ambush scene will make a party’s life a little harder, but not prove to be a game-ender with a comparable threat when geared. The expectation is that at end of system cap, a heavy armor proficient person will be 5 below his typical AC when suited up in +5 full plate, which represents a disadvantage compared to being un-armored, or is made up for by the presence of damage reduction in the Armor as Damage Reduction variant.
The game simply isn't built to handle armor as DR. It is my favorite way to handle armor, but I play games designed to handle armor that way.
If you're up for the work you could assign different DR ratings for each type of damage to each armor. As I recall piercing and blunt weapons were much more effective against plate armor, while slashing weapons could do little to it. Chain mail was good at stopping slashing weapons and decent against piercing weapons, but useless against blunt weapons.
AD&D 2nd edition had rules for variant AC based on armor type. You might consider using it as a guideline for establishing damagetype specific DR's.