Just started GMing, got a few questions


Rules Questions


Don't post often here at all, but I do lurk here regularly. In any case, I just GMed the first session of a game last Friday and it worked out great. But there's a few things that came up both in that session and in my preparation for tomorrow's session.

1: Does the spell magic missile always hit or something? We were reading the rules of this spell when our Sorcerer chose to attack three goblins with it. The rules for it don't say there's any saving throw for the attack and doesn't even say that it's a touch attack. It only says that it hits unerringly, which seems to mean that it never misses. But that did not make much sense to us because that sounds overpowered. What kind of attack roll is involved when casting magic missile?

2: In the description of the composite longbow, it says that it can be used while on horseback. Does this mean that a composite longbow can be used on horseback without penalties? Or does it mean that the composite longbow is the only bow that can be used on horseback, but you still take the -4 penalty?

3: How does the CR system work? The way I see it in the bestiary is that a CR 5 monster is a fair fight for four level 5 PCs (for example). But what about a mix of weaker monsters? Would two CR 2 creatures and one CR 1 creature be a CR 5 encounter because they all add up to 5? Or would it just be a semi hard CR 2 or 3 encounter? It's rather confusing.

Thanks for the help in advance, hope you all had a great time this week with the families!


1: Magic missile always hits. No roll. However, it only does 1d4+1 damage per 2 levels, and most spells scale much faster than that. It looses it's charm quickly.

2: not sure

3: Check the following page:

http://paizo.com/PRD/gamemastering.html

Basically, every additional creature adds slightly more than +1 CR. Be warned however that the CR system is easily messed with. It's a guideline, not a strict rule, so be ready to adapt of your players are better/worse than you thought. It's a flawed but useful system.


The longbow bit is because you can't use a normal one while mounted. You still take the penalty for firing from a horse without a feat or class feature that says you don't.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Domestichauscat wrote:
2: In the description of the composite longbow, it says that it can be used while on horseback. Does this mean that a composite longbow can be used on horseback without penalties? Or does it mean that the composite longbow is the only bow that can be used on horseback, but you still take the -4 penalty?

A standard longbow explicitly can't be used while mounted, while the composite longbow says you can use it while mounted. Depending on how fast your horse is moving, you would still take the penalties with the composite longbow. If your horse takes a single move or stays still, no penalty. If your horse takes a double move, you take a -4 penalty to hit. If your horse is running, you take a -8 penalty to hit. With the Mounted Archery feat, you'd take a -2 for double move and -4 for running.

Domestichauscat wrote:
3: How does the CR system work? The way I see it in the bestiary is that a CR 5 monster is a fair fight for four level 5 PCs (for example). But what about a mix of weaker monsters? Would two CR 2 creatures and one CR 1 creature be a CR 5 encounter because they all add up to 5? Or would it just be a semi hard CR 2 or 3 encounter? It's rather confusing.

The section on Designing Encounters explains how the CR system works. If you're using multiple creatures of the same CR, the CR Equivalencies table can be a useful guideline tool. If you want to be more exact or are using multiple creatures of different CR, try using the Experience Point Awards table.

To use your example, two CR 2 creatures are worth 600 xp each, while one CR 1 creature is worth 400 xp. Your encounter in total is worth 1600 xp, which is actually equivalent to a CR 5 encounter. Just the two CR 2 creatures together are a CR 4 encounter. Three CR 2 creatures is also equal to a CR 5 encounter at 1800 xp, being slightly about the 1600 xp CR 5 threshold but not close enough to the 2400 xp CR 6 threshold.

For a higher level example, a single CR 7 creature with four CR 2 minions is not going to be a CR 15 encounter. Instead, CR 7 (3200 xp) plus 4 x CR 2 (4 x 600 xp) equals 5600 xp, making it a challenging CR 8 encounter.


Domestichauscat wrote:
Don't post often here at all, but I do lurk here regularly. In any case, I just GMed the first session of a game last Friday and it worked out great.

Congratulations, that's awesome. I find GMing to be one of the most challenging and rewarding things you can do with roleplaying. I hope you continue to have a lot of fun with it.

1: As people have already mentioned, yes Magic Missile always hits. It's one of the only spells in the system which does that. Since people have already mentioned the basics, I'll fill you in on the other things to know about Magic Missile.

You can't target objects, only living creatures. You can't do called shots with it and hit a specific part of a creature. Because it's a force effect it hits incorporeal things perfectly.

3: You can mix and match as people have already mentioned. One thing to remember is that using a mix of opponents rather than focusing on a single boss monster can make for better combats. One single boss only gets one action per turn and is quickly swamped by the four PCs all taking actions. Also don't forget that some encounters should be higher or lower CRs to vary the amount of challenge for the PCs. Have a read through the encounter building rules in the core rulebook under Gamemastering and there's some good guidelines in there.


Domestichauscat wrote:

Don't post often here at all, but I do lurk here regularly. In any case, I just GMed the first session of a game last Friday and it worked out great. But there's a few things that came up both in that session and in my preparation for tomorrow's session.

1: Does the spell magic missile always hit or something? We were reading the rules of this spell when our Sorcerer chose to attack three goblins with it. The rules for it don't say there's any saving throw for the attack and doesn't even say that it's a touch attack. It only says that it hits unerringly, which seems to mean that it never misses. But that did not make much sense to us because that sounds overpowered. What kind of attack roll is involved when casting magic missile?

The damage is low, but it does scale, making it one of the best 1st-levevl spells. It's a benchmark spell.

Quote:
2: In the description of the composite longbow, it says that it can be used while on horseback. Does this mean that a composite longbow can be used on horseback without penalties? Or does it mean that the composite longbow is the only bow that can be used on horseback, but you still take the -4 penalty?

You still take the penalty. You can use a shortbow mounted without penalty, I believe. (Also the rule is nonsense from a sim perspective. Samurai used to use huge daikyu (greatbows) while mounted. Maybe they were composite, but I don't see the relevance.)

Quote:

3: How does the CR system work? The way I see it in the bestiary is that a CR 5 monster is a fair fight for four level 5 PCs (for example). But what about a mix of weaker monsters? Would two CR 2 creatures and one CR 1 creature be a CR 5 encounter because they all add up to 5? Or would it just be a semi hard CR 2 or 3 encounter? It's rather confusing.

Thanks for the help in advance, hope you all had a great time this week with the families!

You've gotten advice in previous posts. A CR 5 (well, APL 5) encounter is a theoretically balanced encounter. A single CR 5 monster isn't, though, as it has one action against four or more (however many PCs you have).

In practice, the APL you should be using will depend on how optimized your PCs are. If they steamroll encounters, make them tougher. If they struggle, don't make them tougher.


Ok so how I see it, magic missile loses it's luster after a few levels. And the CR works in terms of overall monster experience rather than the core CR number they have. As in, a CR 1 monster has 400 exp. So three CR 1/3 monsters equals 375, which is an easy CR 1 encounter. So it all depends of how much experience points the encounter gives to determine what the CR is.

The only thing that seems controversial is the second question about mounted archery. I think I got a few different answers for that one. Granted, I think I will give the penalties for the ranger next time we go riding. Still it would be nice to get a faq on this one.

Thanks all for the answers, it's helped out a ton! Happy gaming everyone!


mkenner wrote:
Domestichauscat wrote:
Don't post often here at all, but I do lurk here regularly. In any case, I just GMed the first session of a game last Friday and it worked out great.

Congratulations, that's awesome. I find GMing to be one of the most challenging and rewarding things you can do with roleplaying. I hope you continue to have a lot of fun with it.

1: As people have already mentioned, yes Magic Missile always hits. It's one of the only spells in the system which does that. Since people have already mentioned the basics, I'll fill you in on the other things to know about Magic Missile.

You can't target objects, only living creatures. You can't do called shots with it and hit a specific part of a creature. Because it's a force effect it hits incorporeal things perfectly. ... <snip>

Just to be clear since I'm sure this was an unintended side effect of trying to be clear about objects, Magic Missile can be targeted at any creature, it does not have to be a living creature i.e. it works just fine on a zombie or a construct, etc. barring further protections or immunities. I don't think the game even defines 'living' specifically leaving it with just the normal language usage and the GM to rule when necessary. About the only thing all 'living' creatures seem to do is breathe, even eating and sleeping aren't necessary (and that's just based on me scrolling down the list in the bestiary creature types and my opinion of which qualify as living).


To try and help clarify the mounted combat question:

Mounted Combat wrote:
You can use ranged weapons while your mount is taking a double move, but at a –4 penalty on the attack roll. You can use ranged weapons while your mount is running (quadruple speed) at a –8 penalty. In either case, you make the attack roll when your mount has completed half its movement. You can make a full attack with a ranged weapon while your mount is moving. Likewise, you can take move actions normally.

So the assumption here is that if you are taking less than a double move with your mount you take no penalty. If the mount makes a double move, you take a -4; if it's running, you take a -8. For purposes of calculating range from target, you make half the mount's movement, then fire from that point.

Example 1: Ted the Ranger is mounted on his trusty steed, and is carrying a composite longbow. He's 130 feet from Gork the Orc. If he fires from where he sits, he takes a -2 penalty (composite longbow range increment of 110 feet). He can have his horse move one full movement (50 feet), and he'll fire at the halfway mark; that will put him at 105 feet when he shoots, negating the range penalty and causing no other attack penalty since that's a single move for his mount.

Example 2: Same as above, save that Ted is 160 feet from Gork. He could fire from where he stands (for a -2 penalty, since it's in the bow's second range increment). His mount could take a single move but since he'd fire when he was 135 feet away, it'd do no good. He could take a double move (100 feet), and he'd fire when he was at exactly 110 feet, but he'd take a -4 for the double move penalty - probably not worth it.

Example 3: Same as above, but Ted is wielding a normal longbow. Ted can't take a shot. Why? The regular longbow says it's too unwieldy to use while mounted. :)


Domestichauscat wrote:

Don't post often here at all, but I do lurk here regularly. In any case, I just GMed the first session of a game last Friday and it worked out great. But there's a few things that came up both in that session and in my preparation for tomorrow's session.

1: Does the spell magic missile always hit or something? We were reading the rules of this spell when our Sorcerer chose to attack three goblins with it. The rules for it don't say there's any saving throw for the attack and doesn't even say that it's a touch attack. It only says that it hits unerringly, which seems to mean that it never misses. But that did not make much sense to us because that sounds overpowered. What kind of attack roll is involved when casting magic missile?

2: In the description of the composite longbow, it says that it can be used while on horseback. Does this mean that a composite longbow can be used on horseback without penalties? Or does it mean that the composite longbow is the only bow that can be used on horseback, but you still take the -4 penalty?

3: How does the CR system work? The way I see it in the bestiary is that a CR 5 monster is a fair fight for four level 5 PCs (for example). But what about a mix of weaker monsters? Would two CR 2 creatures and one CR 1 creature be a CR 5 encounter because they all add up to 5? Or would it just be a semi hard CR 2 or 3 encounter? It's rather confusing.

Thanks for the help in advance, hope you all had a great time this week with the families!

1. Yep, it hits unerringly, no attack roll needed. That means that it also ignores things like miss chances from concealment as well, including the blur spell.

2. You can't use a Longbow while mounted, but you can use a composite longbow while mounted or a shortbow, or a composite shortbow. The penalties are the same for each and are outlined in the Mounted Combat section of the combat chapter. (they are different depending on the mount's movement)

3. CR equal to APL (average party level) is considered a reasonable encounter. There is a chart in the Beastiary that outlines a few different combinations that are equal to the same CR, but really when building an encounter, you can look at the Exp value of a CR=APL creature and then "spend" that budget on any combination of monsters that you like.

For example, four level 4 PCs means an APL 4 group. So CR 4 should be a fair encounter (general guideline is that this takes appx 20% of the group's resources to overcome. Resources being items, rounds of rage or performance, spells per day, hitpoints etc.) A single CR 4 monster is worth 1200 exp... so that encounter could be 1 CR 4 monster, but those sorts of fights (where the monster is alone) are usually pretty easy.

So, you can budget out the exp differently.
CR 3(800exp) + CR 1(400 exp) = 1200
4xCR1 creatures = 1200 exp
2xCR 2 = 1200exp
2xCR 1 and 1xCR 2 = 1200 exp

And all of these should be fairly equal encounters. Now that may make it seem like CR X + CR y = CR (X+Y) but that isn't actually true, as EXP values increase at a faster rate as CRs go up. (EG a CR 9 encounter is worth 6400 exp, which would be 8 CR-3 monsters.)

Still, CR=APL is not usually a 'challenging' encounter... this is the sort of encounter that the group should be able to face 4 times per day without much issue. The thing to remember also, is that not every fight needs to bring PCs to the brink of death... or even be difficult at all. The goal is often just to wear the PCs down, make them use their spells and x/day powers. Attrition will make sure that, though the first fight seems easy, they get seemingly harder as the day progresses and the party is left with less and less tools... even though the CR hasn't really changed.

Anyway, good luck GMing, and have fun.


Kayerloth wrote:
Just to be clear since I'm sure this was an unintended side effect of trying to be clear about objects, Magic Missile can be targeted at any creature, it does not have to be a living creature i.e. it works just fine on a zombie or a construct, etc. barring further protections or immunities.

Whoops, you're right that was an unintentional word insertion there. I'm used to the words living and creature going together most of the time, non-living creatures are a bit rare in normal usage.

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