"Masterwork" just means "well-made", "good quality", "fancy". It literally means "made by a master crafter". It either provides a bonus, or it doesn't. A masterwork sword adds +1 to hit. Masterwork thieves tools provide +2 circumstance bonus. Masterwork manacles raise the escape DC by 5. Etc.
EVERYTHING can be masterwork if someone with great skill works extra hard on it to make it fancy. You could have a masterwork diamond ring or a masterwork rocking chair or a masterwork painting. These won't add bonuses, but they're still made by masters and as a result, they tend to be worth more than a similar but ordinary item. For real life example, go paint an ordinary painting and then try to sell it for the same price as the Mona Lisa and you'll see how a real life "masterwork" painting can inflate the price.
Side note: anyone with enough crafting skill and enough time and patience and materials can make ANYTHING as a masterwork item. The Masterwork Transformation spell is a magical shortcut, a cheat, whereby a caster uses magic to achieve the same effect - it is not the only way to make masterwork items, in much the same way that Fireball is not the only way to kill a monster.
Back to your questions.
1) Raise the price. This means it also takes more time to craft.
2) Raise the price. This means it also takes more time to craft. It also gives a circumstance bonus to whatever skill it is used with.
3) Raise the price. This means it also takes more time to craft.
4) Yes - if you have no distractions you can always Take-10 on all skill rolls.
5) No - Take-20 assumes that you take 20x the normal time to make one check and that you start by rolling a 1, then a 2, then a 3, and eventually arrive at rolling a 20. If there are consequences for rolling a 1, or consequences for failing a check, then you cannot use Take-20. In this case, a failed check means no progress and failure by 5 or more ruins half of your raw materials, so there are consequences for failure - which means you cannot use Take-20.
6) Yes, but most of them don't give any bonus on attack or damage rolls when used as a melee weapon.
7) No. From the Core Rulebook, Magic Items Creation: "Magic supplies for items are always half of the base price in gp. For many items, the market price equals the base price. Armor, shields, weapons, and items with value independent of their magically enhanced properties add their item cost to the market price." To create a weapon, armor, or shield, you need the base item (masterwork). Everything else, you just need materials worth half the base price of the item.
8) This is a gray area. Note that you need Craft Staff AND Craft Arms and Armor to make a Staff of Power. Both feats are required. BUT, the Staff of Power is still a Staff and is crafted using the rules for crafting magical staffs which don't specifically require a masterwork quarterstaff. If it did, the price would be 235,300 to reflect the masterwork weapon price. Therefore, it seems that you need the feat but not the masterwork item. Logically, I agree with you, if you want to add a bonus to melee rolls and are required to use Craft Magical Arms and Armor when making the Staff of Power, it should require a masterwork staff, but the rules don't seem to require it.
9) No - see my previous answer.
A Discharged Magical Quarterstaff would still be Masterwork, or retain the Enhancement Bonus and any Special Attributes.
What do you mean by "Discharged"?
Staves never run out of charges. Or more accurately, any caster can always recharge them if they know one of the spells on the staff.
If what you meant was a staff that got dispelled, or a staff that is temporarily out of charges until it gets recharged, then you're right, but only if the quarterstaff were originally designed this way which is not a requirement and not assumed with most staves. Certainly, a crafter COULD begin with a masterwork quarterstaff, enchant it to be whatever staff he wants, and still enjoy the benefit of +1 on his melee attack rolls regardless, even when the staff is fully charged, drained, or whatever. If that staff somehow got disenchanted, it would still be a masterwork quarterstaff. But, no staff in the book is designed this way - which shouldn't stop a GM from doing it this way if he wants to.
Back to your questions.
1) Raise the price. This means it also takes more time to craft.
2) Raise the price. This means it also takes more time to craft. It also gives a circumstance bonus to whatever skill it is used with.
3) Raise the price. This means it also takes more time to craft.
1) How Much?
2) How Much?
3) How Much?10) Is a "Masterwork" Ring/Cloak/Belt/Amulet/Wand/Staff required as part of the material for a Magie Ring, Wondrous Item, Amulet, Wand, Staff?
1, 2, and 3) how much is up to the GM. In the real world, I can go to a local artist's fair and buy an oil painting for around $40. If the Mona Lisa were for sale, the price tag would be millions, or tens of millions. That's a big markup for a painting by a master. It's also an extreme example. The simple answer is, "fancy" usually means "costly" but determining just how costly is up to the GM. As for masterwork skill kits, there are already prices for most of this stuff. Masterwork thieves tools is 100gp, masterwork musical instrument is 100gp, masterwork survival kit is 50gp, etc. Use those prices when possible or use them as examples for creating your own price for something that might not be in the book.
10) No. See my answer #7 in my previous post.
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Also, DM_Blake... do you speak with any official capacity as relates to Paizo and the Rules? Is your voice more "Official" in any shape form or fashion than mine or anyone else's that might post an opinion on this thread?
I've been a DM/GM for every version of D&D and Pathfinder and Pathfinder Society since the early 80s.
FWIW, DM_Blake is almost always exactly right. I cannot think of a single post of his I have ever materially disagreed with.
I'm not trying to pull rank, but I'm just saying that there are some of us who have more experience and asked a lot of questions to devs, even in person, on these subjects even 10 years ago which may still be relevant today.
Also for this post, I agree with him on his findings. There are other masterwork items in the game, some of which are called out, such as a masterwork backpack, and others which are not called out, or derive bonuses at varying costs but are not specifically called masterwork.
Some GMs house rule that you need a masterwork set of boots to make magical boots, but in any case, the overall cost of that item is subsumed in the cost if making the item as Blake indicated. So whether you need a 15gp set of masterwork boots and 985gp of magic supplies, or 1000gp of magic supplies and hand wave it, is up to your GM.
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So the short answer to my question is "No?"
Longer form: He speaks from experience and is a Valued Opinion, but his answers cannot be taken as an official stance from Paizo.
Is that a fair statement?
Hi KWScott, could you restate any unanswered question(s)?
I agree. Blake isn't a Paizo official, but I would very strongly suggest that he is usually right because of his experience and activity on the boards.
KWScott, a few things:
1. Learn how to edit posts. Please. You do not need to double and triple post every time an idea pops into your head.
2. Unless your questions are of utmost important to the fanbase and a lot of people want an answer on them, you're highly, highly unlikely to get an official dev response. Either take the informed responses you receive here or feel free to leave, but please don't complain when you don't get a dev's opinion.
Anyway, to your original questions:
1. There ARE masterwork items that are not weapons and armor, but they are normally used for skill checks and the like. Thieves tools, artisans tools, so on. Normally, a masterwork item of that nature is an extra 50-100gp, depending.
2. Depends on what it is. Lots of thieves' and artisan's tools are metal, so I would say Craft: Blacksmithing; things like Healer's kits could be Craft: Alchemy.
3. It would still be the same as above, just find a specific craft and attach it to the item you want. If you wanted a masterwork flower basket, you'd need Craft: Basketweaving.
4. RAW? Yes. There's nothing saying you can't. However...
5. This one is a little more suspect. "Taking 20" assumes that you do it over and over a lot of times and failing a lot of times before you get it right. Since there is an obvious penalty for failure, RAI I would say no. It's up to your GM, though.
Masterwork tools typically cost 100gp more. Pretty much any practical object can be reasonably considered a tool.
1) How do you make a Masterwork Item that's not a Weapon or Armor?
Generic masterwork Armor = normal armor price + 150 gp per CRB
Generic masterwork Weapon = normal weapon price + 300 gp per CRBGeneric masterwork Tool = normal tool price + 50 gp per CRB
Specific masterwork item = price in book
All prices are for non-magical stuff, so use standard Craft(X) where X is the appropriate craft.
There is a table for the DC to craft most things. Armor and Weapon masterwork component has a DC of 20, so it is not unreasonable for the masterwork component of other items to also be 20.
2) How do you make a Masterwork Skill Kit other than by Masterwork Transformation?
Add the cost for a masterwork tool, i.e. 50gp. Craft the additional value.
3) How do you make a Masterwork Item that is not a Weapon, Armor, or Skill Kit?
Get the GM to tell you which Craft(X) skill it is, and use that.
4) Can you use Take 10 on Craft Skill Rolls?
Yes.
5) Can you use Take 20 on Craft Skill Rolls?
Only if there is no penalty for failing. It also takes 20 times as long. If your minimum d20+Skill is 18, and you are making something with a DC of 15, then you could take 20. However, the 20*duration needed probably defeats the purpose. Since craft checks are defaulted to a week's progress, or optionally a day's progress, the Take-20 would take 20 weeks or 20 days to do, with much less to show for it.
Note: The Formula for calculating how long it takes to complete and item actually takes LONGER to create LOWER DC Items... This is... counterintuitive.
It is also the way it is. Sigh. You can use the fast crafting rules where you add 10 to the DC, and thus craft faster with a higher DC.
Also, since the Quarterstaff has no cost... so the silver piece cost of the item is 0... There is no time required to make a quarterstaff, and there is no consequence for failure as 50% of zero is still 0, with 0 time required...
Correct. However, a masterwork version is NOT free. It is 300 gp, and it does have a consequence for failure.
1 & 3) Doesn't matter, there's no such thing as a masterwork anything other than Armor or Weapons. While an Item of the appropriate description is require for crafting other types of magic items (Wondrous, Rods, Rings, ect), mundane examples of them are sufficient and subsumed into the cost of the Item Creation Cost.CRB has:
- 50 gp .. Masterwork Manacles
- 55 gp .. Masterwork Artisan Tools
- 100 gp .. Masterwork Musical Instrument
- 100 gp .. Masterwork Thieves' Tools
- 50 gp .. Masterwork Tools
Additionally, certain materials are considered masterwork when used to make stuff. These materials have prices listed in the book. Most are added to the standard cost, but some replace the standard cost.
6) Can any Magical Staff be used as a Quarterstaff?
I would say generally no, but it would depend on the description of said magical staff. Most might be usable as a quarterstaff, but not all staves are long enough. If it is long enough, it still might not be suitable as a weapon. My character is in the process of making a Hanbo (eastern walking stick/weapon) that will double as a magical stave.
7) If so, must the caster begin with a Masterwork Quarterstaff to be Enchanted?
8) If not, does this apply to Staves (Such as the Staff of Power) that may specifically be used as a Quarterstaff?
Logically, to me, the answers are "No", "Yes, if the Magic Staff is to be used as a Quarterstaff", and "Any Magical Staff that can also be used as a Weapon must begin with a Masterwork Quarterstaff as part of the Material Cost."
A wizard CAN begin with a masterwork staff OR a masterwork something else OR with a familiar. Dealer's choice. Other casters with the Arcane Bond feature have the same (or restricted) choice. Casters without the Arcane Bond, don't have this choice, for example clerics, and oracles. I don't know if a magic staff is to serve as a weapon, if it must also be a masterwork weapon. However, I don't recall any staff description that let you use it as a weapon that did not also call it a weapon of at least +1.
9) If the above "Logical" answers are true, could you craft a Staff of Power (or any other Staff that can also be used as a Quarterstaff in Combat) using either the Craft Staff, or Craft Magic Arms or Armor fest?
Logically, to me, the answer is "No... If a staff is to have Charges and is to be able to be used to cast spells, the item must be created using the Craft Staff Item Creation Feats... This feat is capable of also applying Enhancement Bonuses and Special Attributes to any Magical Staff that may also be used as a Quarterstaff in Combat."
To fully make a Staff of Power, the following are used:
Craft(Weapons) -- make the masterwork non-magical staffCraft Staff -- enchant as a staff
Craft Magic Arms and Armor -- enchant as a weapon
Assorted Spells -- spells to add to the staff
All is listed in the CRB p495
If you are creating a custom staff, you have to get the GM to agree to it. I recommend CMA&A if you intend to use it as a weapon as well as a magic item.
A Discharged Magical Quarterstaff would still be Masterwork, or retain the Enhancement Bonus and any Special Attributes.
It would retain everything but the ability to cast the staff spells. Some staves have extras that allow a spell 1/day or such. This never goes away unless the staff is disenchanted or in a magic suppression field or effect.
10) Is a "Masterwork" Ring/Cloak/Belt/Amulet/Wand/Staff required as part of the material for a Magie Ring, Wondrous Item, Amulet, Wand, Staff?
Yes, however, the cost is not split out from the enchantment cost. Therefore you don't need any Craft(X) checks for the mundane cost.
I agree that the way the rules are written, it all washes out in the end, but if one is playing an item crafter, it would be nice to have some guidelines as to the cost of Masterwork Boots vs. Boots... As Cost is the Major Determining Factor on how long it take to make something... (using Take 10, with a Craft (Armor) skill of 9 or better, it takes 40 weeks to craft a set of Full Plate... While it takes 3 Days to craft a Longsword... and as I pointed out above, by the rules it takes no time at all to craft a Quarterstaff.
See above about Masterwork Tool.
Masterwork Boots = Normal Boots + 50 gp. They can give up to a +2 circumstance bonus for something Boots do. For example. they might give +2 to Acrobatics, or +2 to Climb, or something else. Your GM needs to agree to whatever custom item you make.I'm still (And this isn't really a question) perturbed/intrigued/disturbed that by the procedure detailed for crafting items, were I to attempt to craft a Typical Item (DC10) that cost 100gp, and a High Quality Item (DC15) the Typical Item would take 30% Longer to create... Again, the crafter above Taking 10...
DC10 Typical Item... 1000sp/200 = 5 weeks
DC15 High Quality Item... 1000sp/300 = 3 weeks, 2 days.33% Faster
Yep. Crafting mundane stuff sucks, time wise.
Do You have any more association with Paizo and speak in a more official manner than GM_Blake, or are you simply backing up a buddy?
Look under the poster's name. If they are somebody with Pazio, like a developer, it usually will say so. There are number of categories I have seen. Also, if you click on the poster's name, you get their page, which can get you additional information.
I'm sorry... I just don't follow or agree with that logic. Why would or should a higher DC item take a Shorter time to craft than an equivalent value, lower DC item.
I see how it works to achieve the affect of the rule... Raise the DC to shorten the crafting time... But I don't see how the example I stated makes any sense at all.
That is why there are alternate crafting rules made by fans. I don't recall where, but you could search them out.
I thought of a couple more... Specifically related to Staves and their dual nature as Weapon and Magical Focus...
A Wizard of the Elemental School of Fire starts out with an Arcane Bond(Staff) and therefore has a Masterwork Quarterstaff... At level 5 she takes Craft Magic Arms and Armor and decides to make her staff +1 Flaming quarterstaff...
At Level 11 she takes the Craft Staff feat and decides she wants to make her +1 Flaming staff a Staff of Fire...
Just pay the Staff of Fire cost and do the thing and Bango, a +1 Flaming Staff of Fire?Since you're not enhancing an already existant affect, like taking the staff from +1 Flaming to +2 Flaming Burst, would the +1 Flaming Staff, for the purposes of creating a Staff of Fire be functionally equivalent to the original Masterwork Quarterstaff she started out with?
You need to watch out for the Multiple Magical Effects rules. They can add 50% for the second and later effects. You need to run this by your GM for the price. For me, I would rule as you did: weapon price + staff price. Others might bump up the staff price by 50%.
/cevah
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I'm still (And this isn't really a question) perturbed/intrigued/disturbed that by the procedure detailed for crafting items, were I to attempt to craft a Typical Item (DC10) that cost 100gp, and a High Quality Item (DC15) the Typical Item would take 30% Longer to create... Again, the crafter above Taking 10...
DC10 Typical Item... 1000sp/200 = 5 weeks
DC15 High Quality Item... 1000sp/300 = 3 weeks, 2 days.33% Faster
Do You have any more association with Paizo and speak in a more official manner than GM_Blake, or are you simply backing up a buddy?
If we are talking about the craft skill (vs. crafting magic items with a feat), you can increase your speed in crafting by voluntarily adding 10 to the DC.
However, just a note from the peanut gallery:
If you dig even just a little bit, you will find that the crafting rules as they exist are actually quite broken, especially when combined with the spell Fabricate. It is my belief that Pathfinder maintains these rules merely for the purpose of being compatible with prior game material, not that they throw their full weight behind the existing crafting system.
It is nonsensical that an adventuring wizard could easily enchant a set of magic boots but it may take the same wizard, with max ranks and skill focus, a serious period if time to craft some rather unimportant alchemical items.
We have has campaigns where crafters gained levels faster than they could craft items. It is far easier to make a scroll of Poison than to craft a weak poison.
I am not a Paizo official, just backing up the opinions of those I believe carry merit.
One final note: In case there is any confusion, a staff and a quarterstaff are two different things. They have different weights, stats, and game impact.
A staff can be crafted as a quarterstaff but it is uncommon. If you craft a staff to be a quarterstaff, then you must add any appropriate costs for the masterwork components as documented above.
Thank you, Cevah.
Could you please give me a reference for the generic +50gp for Masterwork items in the CRB that you reference?
CRB p158: Tool, Masterwork -- 50 gp
CRP p161: "Tool, Masterwork: This well-made item is the perfect tool for the job. It grants a +2 circumstance bonus on a related skill check (if any). Bonuses provided by multiple masterwork items do not stack."Also, a Masterwork staff would require 2 Masterwork Weapon Items. ;)
On this bit: "... the cost is not split out from the enchantment cost. Therefore you don't need any Craft(X) checks for the mundane cost."
That's true unless you intend to create the item to enchant yourself as the description of Create Rings, Create Wands, Create Wondrous Items, Create Staves in Chapter 15 of the CRB starting on page 551 all have a sentence in them similar to this:
"To create a magic ring, a character needs a heat source. He
also needs a supply of materials, the most obvious being a
ring or the pieces of the ring to be assembled."Which is all well and good if you consider the components to be bought off the shelf, but if the crafter wanted to be self sufficient, it follows that the Ring (or piece of the ring to be assembled) must be crafted first... The Price of the ring would be credited to the Materials cost, but there's still additional crafting time.
CRB p549: "Magic supplies for items are always half of the base price in gp. For many items, the market price equals the base price. Armor, shields, weapons, and items with value independent of their magically enhanced properties add their item cost to the market price."
The magic supplies cost 1/2 price. I can see that you do not need a masterwork version unless called out (as it is for armor, shields, and weapons). This means that you can save 2/3 of the mundane cost of the base item. Since nearly every mundane item has negligible cost, compared to the magic item in question, I think the mundane cost is usually handwaved as being subsumed into the magic supplies portion of the cost. It has been for every game I have played or GMed, in 3.0, 3.5, and PF. *I* would give you a free generic ring as a base for a magic ring. You would still pay the 1/2 price for the magic crafting.
And, I respectfully disagree with your assertion that a Masterwork Ring is required to create a Magic Ring on the basis that Masterwork items are specified for Arms and Armor, but no such stipulation is made for any other magic item type. "The most obvious being a ring..." not "The most obvious being a masterwork ring..." Whereas, Create Magic Weapons reads: "She also needs a supply of materials, the most obvious being the weapon or the pieces of the weapon to be assembled. Only a masterwork weapon can become a magic weapon, and the masterwork cost is added to the total cost to determine final market value." If a masterwork ring, or staff, or cloak, or belt, or rod, or amulet were required, wouldn't it follow that a similar stipulation would have been made?
See above. I am not perfect, and back when I played 2ed, you DID have to have a masterwork version for anything made into a magic item if a masterwork version could exist. .... Yeah I've been playing since 1st ed. :-)
/cevah
For what it's worth:
Yes, the CRB says to double the masterwork cost for double weapons. But it also says "Creating magic double-headed weapons is treated as creating two weapons when determining cost, time, and special abilities." Therefore, it is clearly possible to enchant only one end of a double weapon, or to enchant each end differently. I've seen official published materials that have done exactly that. One particular example comes to mind of a dire flail, I believe, that was +1 flaming on one end and +1 frost on the other.
I cannot find a rule saying whether this also applies to masterwork weapons or not, but I've always assumed it does. Ergo, it may be possible to create any double weapon so that one end is masterwork and the other end is ordinary. However, I cannot find an explicit rule or a FAQ/Errata to back that up, so maybe it's only my personal assumption, or maybe I've just forgotten where to find a DEV chiming in on this. Hard for me to say.
In any case, yes, apparently by RAW, it's 600gp for a masterwork quarterstaff that is masterwork on both ends. But it might not be necessary to make it that way - not everyone is interested in or capable of fighting with it as a double weapon - some people just wield it like a big two-handed club, which is perfectly allowed by RAW.
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On this bit: "... the cost is not split out from the enchantment cost. Therefore you don't need any Craft(X) checks for the mundane cost."
That's true unless you intend to create the item to enchant yourself as the description of Create Rings, Create Wands, Create Wondrous Items, Create Staves in Chapter 15 of the CRB starting on page 551 all have a sentence in them similar to this:
"To create a magic ring, a character needs a heat source. He
also needs a supply of materials, the most obvious being a
ring or the pieces of the ring to be assembled."Which is all well and good if you consider the components to be bought off the shelf, but if the crafter wanted to be self sufficient, it follows that the Ring (or piece of the ring to be assembled) must be crafted first... The Price of the ring would be credited to the Materials cost, but there's still additional crafting time.
You're over-thinking this. None of this matters.
What is the difference:
Version One:
Sauron: I forge a magical ring. It will make the wearer invisible and has a few extra perks built in. I will make it out of plain boring copper, just a simple copper band, nothing special.
GM: OK, that costs 50,000 gp for invisibility plus perks. It will take you 50 days to make it and you must invest 25,000 gp in raw materials for the copper and other special ingredients you need.
Version Two:
Sauron: I forge a magical ring. It will make the wearer invisible and has a few extra perks built in. I will make it out of the purest gold, studded with emeralds and rubies and diamonds, and it will have beautiful scrollwork and fancy engravings and even a magical inscription inside. It will truly be the work of a master.
GM: OK, that costs 50,000 gp for invisibility plus perks. It will take you 50 days to make it and you must invest 25,000 gp in raw materials for the gold and gems and the detailed artwork, as well as for any additional special ingredients you need.
Version Three:
Sauron: I forge a magical ring. It will make the wearer invisible and has a few extra perks built in. I will make it out this fancy ring I already found - all I need to do is enchant it.
GM: OK, that costs 50,000 gp for invisibility plus perks. It will take you 50 days to make it and you must invest 25,000 gp in raw materials for all the special ingredients you need.
In all three versions, Sauron makes a ring with certain powers that costs him 25,000gp to make and takes 50 days. Period. It doesn't matter how fancy the ring ends up being, or whether he forges a new ring or works with one he already has. There are ZERO rules stipulating this as a requirement or as a factor in the cost or time of forging the magical ring - the only thing that matters is the end product. More specifically, the only thing that matters is what the ring actually does, magically. Everything else is just a fluffy description for the sake of verisimilitude.
And, I respectfully disagree with your assertion that a Masterwork Ring is required to create a Magic Ring on the basis that Masterwork items are specified for Arms and Armor, but no such stipulation is made for any other magic item type. "The most obvious being a ring..." not "The most obvious being a masterwork ring..." Whereas, Create Magic Weapons reads: "She also needs a supply of materials, the most obvious being the weapon or the pieces of the weapon to be assembled. Only a masterwork weapon can become a magic weapon, and the masterwork cost is added to the total cost to determine final market value." If a masterwork ring, or staff, or cloak, or belt, or rod, or amulet were required, wouldn't it follow that a similar stipulation would have been made?
You're right. It would follow. But it stipulates no such thing, so it's not required.
As I just said, you either have a ring, buy a ring, find a ring, or make it yourself, all of which is already factored into the rules for crafting a magical ring. Your final ring has a "Base Cost" which is determined by the magical spells/powers the ring has and the caster level needed to use those powers. Forging this ring takes 1 day per 1,000 gp of that Base Cost and requires raw materials equal to half that Base Cost. Those RAW materials can be the gold and gems or other precious stuff used to make the ring, or they can be the heart of a dragon, tears of an angel, horn of a unicorn, claws of a tarrasque, etc. - whatever mystical magical mumbo-jumbo you need to grind up and burn, rub, soak, marinade, etc., into your ring to make the magic permanent.
Here's the most important part: The rules of the game don't care - you and your GM can work out those details with as much or as little granularity as you want, just so long as you pay 1/2 the Base Cost for something that makes you happy.
Is it wonky? Yes. Could a wizard with a 6 DEX and the Forge Ring feat craft an immensely beautiful +1 Ring of Protection, made of platinum and precious gemstones in 2 just days, while someone with 20 rank in Craft (Jewelry) would require months to make a similar non-magical ring of the same metals and gems? Yes. Does that make sense? No.
But it is the rules.
Perhaps a GM might apply common sense and require the clumsy wizard to go out and buy a ring if he wants one that fancy or else just forge his out of 50gp of melted gold and 950gp of bullette shell, and when he's done, his plain-looking +1 Ring of Protection will be boring and dull, perhaps even not quite perfectly round, maybe with uneven thickness, and look terribly amateurish - but it still took 2 days and 1,000gp of materials.
Maybe that same clever GM might allow someone to forge a +1 Ring of Protection out of a very expensive, fancy, ring fit for a king. Maybe that rink, by itself, would be worth 100,000gp. Then the wizard gets 1,000gp of bullette shell and turns it into a very fancy +1 Ring of Protection that would have a market price of 102,000gp. Nothing in the rules that says you cannot do this.
Long story short, put as much time and effort and value into making your magical items as you want. If you pay the minimum, 1/2 of Base Cost, that presupposes some cost for the materials to make the item (which could be zero if you had the item in the first place) and some for the secret ingredients/components. If you spend the allotted time, that presupposes some time spent making the item (which could be zero time if you had the item in the first place) and some time spent enchanting the item. However you allocate that money and time, you end up with a magical item. Period. The description is up to you.
Thanks, Arliss;
Yes I was speaking of Craft Skill, not Crafting Magic Items. It's fairly straight forward if you don't consider crafting the base items yourself, and just 'buying off the shelf,' letting someone else deal with the mundane... And Yes, I'd come to that conclusion that the rules as written are broken, especially with Fabricate and Masterwork Transformation, which is why I came here seeking clarification. It does seem prohibitive for an adventuring Mage without the spells to craft the items, masterwork or not, unless they're only a few gold pieces each.
You're right. It is prohibitive for an adventurer to spend all his time standing at a forge - that's what smiths are for. Or to spend all his time standing at a loom - that's what tailors are for. Etc.
Adventurers, how shall I put it, well, they go on adventures. Fortunately, the money adventurers make is 1,000s of times more than what smiths and tailors make. Adventurers can easily, very easily, afford to buy or even find items they can use in their crafting. Sweating in a forge all day for a few months to whip up a +1 sword is hot, hard, tedious, and time consuming. Instead, they can go raid ONE dungeon for ONE day, find 300gp, buy a MW sword, then spend 2 days enchanting it and they have the same magical sword in a fraction of the time. Oh, and side bonus, they also got XP for their dungeon delve and maybe went up a level, too, which would not have happened standing in the forge.
I'm not saying you're wrong. Play how you want. If your character concept is someone slaving away in a forge all day, day after day, month after month, who once in a while leaves the forge for an adventure, then more power to you. Have fun. (That's not sarcasm; I really mean it).
But yeah, the mundane crafting skill reflects times and costs for crafting mundane things for mundane people - most adventurers have bigger dreams than that, and if they're even marginally successful, they're way too busy to waste time on such mundanity and way to rich to regret paying someone else to provide the mundane labor.
Fortunately, the money adventurers make is 1,000s of times more than what smiths and tailors make. Adventurers can easily, very easily, afford to buy or even find items they can use in their crafting.You haven't played in our campaigns... ;) I've got a Paladin that's 5K short of 17th level and has the equipment on his back, and 295gp to his name. ;) And he handles the money for the party.
So you're saying your paladin has 405,295 gp? I think that proves my point - you won't find a blacksmith or tailor with that kind of cash lying around. And, presumably, you made that money in what, one year? Two? Five? Let's say ten years to get that cash. A very successful professional shopkeeper (blacksmith, tailor, etc.) makes about 500gp a year before expenses but usually has to buy meals, pay living expenses, etc, for himself and his family, which can eat up most of that income, maybe leaving about 100gp or so for profit - most which he probably invests in tools and materials for his business. That means, at most, in the same 10 years he might have made about 1,000gp total profit, assuming he never broke a tool (paid to replace it), got burglarized, had an illness (time off from work with no pay), paid a dowry, hired a priest to heal a sick or injured family member/friend, etc. - lots of ways he might have spent some or most of that 1,000 gp through those years; it would be amazing if he had even half of it left at the end of that decade.
So, maybe, he might have 500 gp under his mattress at the end of the decade, and your paladin has more than 400,000gp. OK, so my initial guess of "1,000s of times more than a commoner" was a bit off, it's more like 800x more - assuming it really took you 10 years. I've seen characters reach those levels much faster. My current campaign has everyone at 13th level and they're only about a year, maybe 15-16 months so far - they'll get 4 more levels in the next couple months easy and be 20th level in under 2 years total time (That's 880,000gp compared to the blacksmith's 200, that's 4,400x his earning rate).
Owner - D20 Hobbies
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I don't understand where you got the 400K figure
From you. You said "17th level and 5k short" which translates into a lookup from table on page 399 showing 17th is 410,000 gp. He subtracted 5k and added 295 gp.
The point is that your expected wealth assumes you don't craft anything and that you have everything you want or need from just buying it off the shelf.
If you have a PC who tries to make everything (magical and mundane) that upsets both the wealth balance of the campaign and also takes too much time for most campaigns.
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Owner - D20 Hobbies
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Is it common in other people's campaign's to measure one's success against that table? Do you complain to the GM if you're not On Track as regards your net worth?
That table is a summary of the treasure tables, which the game is designed for you to have that much treasure for the CR system to work.
If you have less gold your CR encounters should be lowered.
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I'm still (And this isn't really a question) perturbed/intrigued/disturbed that by the procedure detailed for crafting items, were I to attempt to craft a Typical Item (DC10) that cost 100gp, and a High Quality Item (DC15) the Typical Item would take 30% Longer to create... Again, the crafter above Taking 10...
DC10 Typical Item... 1000sp/200 = 5 weeks
DC15 High Quality Item... 1000sp/300 = 3 weeks, 2 days.33% Faster
You forgot that the high quality item will usually be worth more than the typical item. Let's use the Craft skill examples, where a "typical" item is an iron pot and a "high quality" item is a bell. The pot is worth 8sp, while the bell, a musical instrument, is worth 5gp or 50sp.
DC10 Typical Item... 8sp/200 = .28 days
DC15 High Quality Item... 50sp/300 = 1.67 days
You could probably find a typical item that is unusually expensive and thus takes longer to craft than some high quality items, but even then it could be explained as long and tedious but not difficult crafting work (and the tedium might be why it costs more despite not being difficult).
Not a perfect system, but not as nonsensical as it looks.