Be wary of putting advanced firearms in your campaign. Advanced firearms basically eliminate all of the downsides to using gun. There's no reason every character shouldn't have a gun if advanced firearms are commonplace.
As i said they will be more expensive than other weapons. And they wonb't get touch AC shenanigans, except maybe against very few and far between foes. I am actively trying to make them no more valuable than other weapons, even though they are so advanced.
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To whatever extent 3.5's general system math was actually designed (it kind of seems like it feel from the sky), Touch AC wasn't designed as the thing being targeted by every one of your attacks. Doing that isn't intrinsically too powerful - not even close - but it makes the Gunslinger wildly insensitive to CR compared to other fighty classes. Most fighty classes deal with two additional difficulties against higher CR monsters - they have more HP to burn though, and they have higher AC. Gunslingers ignore AC, so higher-CR monsters are only scaling on one axis against them instead of two. This leads to unexpected results a lot of the time. The world is used to the idea that spellcasters trivially one-shot single powerful monsters (like gunslingers, they only have to deal with one axis of scaling, since they ignore HP), but a more CR-insensitive fighty class is less familiar. A gunslinger is certainly less powerful than a spellcaster (they have an better chance of doing lots of damage to an otherwise difficult-to-hit foe, but that's basically all they have going on), but it fits in the system math in a super weird way.
Gunslingers tend to actually shine harder the more optimized a party is. Optimized parties require the DM to throw more difficult encounters at a party to challenge them, but the Gunslinger class isn't much worse against harder monsters than against easier monsters.
EDIT: The gunslinger class and the emerging firearms rules are the "only the gunslinger is really reasonable with a gun" rules. The advanced firearms rules are the "firearms are a reasonable weapon for everybody" rules. Gunslinger + Advanced Firearms IS more powerful than the rest of the martial combat ecosystem.
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The "Overpowered" argument is crock.
Only in the sense that it holds water.
Guns are, despite everything, one of the worst weapons in the game.
That get really really good with static damage and a few feats.
begging you to let him retrain that feat, by like level 7.
Fighter with a gun is pretty lethal too. Or ranger. All you really need are Full BAB and the feats.
This is what it takes to become middle-of-the-road ranged DPR with guns. Ain't gonna beat any BAB20 class that just picked a composite longbow off the floor and decided 'manyshot' sounds like a neat enough feat to have.
And yet they routinely blow archers away in actual damage, especially on the hard fights where it matters more: because the hard fights have higher AC's and the gunslinger doesn't care about AC at all.
Now that that's been dealt with
You can still get a monkey tail, or a tiefling with a prehensile tail.
the gun only looks powerful because of the double-standard-backed-by-inexplicable-hatred-and-erroneous-facts hate-on our devs here have for crossbows and repeaters.
Less grarg, more point.
The other issue, the one that really gets GM's worrying, is that it targets, at very short ranges, Touch AC.
Unless you have an extremely large table, that range is going to be the encounter distance.
-Bad encounter design gets eaten right up by those that ignore the aspect being upgraded, and for gunners that's AC
I would like to see some of this alleged good encounter design that isn't the quickling marching band followed by the invisible stalker chorus ensemble.
-Everyone 'knows' it's overpowered because they know because they read/heard it from other people at the FLGS, on message boards, facebook or forums who know because they read/heard it from other people at the FLGS, on message boards, facebook or forums who know because they read/heard it from other people at the FLGS, on message boards, facebook or forums who know be..........
Or sat at multiple tables and watched it happen. This idea that you're the only one with any "real" experience is bunk.
This is a standard design correlation. It is an incredibly complex system with numerous checks and balances;
Leaving aside the fact that SR isn't much of a defense, there are much more examples of monsters with SR but not low touch AC or low touch AC but no SR than there are monsters with SR and low touch AC. It seems a bit much to claim a strong correlation here when there's only about two main examples of such.
I recognize that a monster's strengths and weaknesses go into determining its CR and I recognize that it's a complicated system with numerous factors. That does not change the fact that you have overstated your case with regard to SR balancing low touch AC. It's not that low touch AC monsters are given SR so that spellcasters don't trivially blow past them. Rather, monsters with SR have their CR raised because they have higher defenses and monsters with low touch AC have their CR lowered because they have lower defenses. If both happen at once, they partially cancel out.
I'll certainly agree that gunslingers don't fit well into the established monster design paradigm. That's clearly true. The gunslinger wasn't made by the same people who first came up with the 3e system of monster CR.
I have a question for those who have actually played with gunslingers and are posting on this thread about the problems...
If guns were changed to target normal AC instead of touch AC, making them effectively like every other weapon in the game, would their power level become balanced enough to use?
I apologize if this has been addressed earlier; it probably has, but I don't remember it coming up in the discussion. If it has, please direct me there.
I took cartridge to mean a guns clip not individual bullets.Think more "pre measured powder and ball in a paper or pig intestine" than metal bullet.
You're thinking of the magazine; most guns don't actually have clips. Some use fast loader clips, but the only really famous firearm to use a clip is the M1 Garand.
Magazines are classified by different types; there's the box magazine that most weapons today use, tube magazines common to shotguns, internal magazines, cylinder magazines used by revolvers... The list goes on and on.
I have a question for those who have actually played with gunslingers and are posting on this thread about the problems...
If guns were changed to target normal AC instead of touch AC, making them effectively like every other weapon in the game, would their power level become balanced enough to use?
If you do this, you'll also want to remove the misfire chance and reduce the cost of ammunition. Remove the cons as well as the pros. And also give the gunslinger actual class features.
I honestly think this is how guns should have been implemented from the beginning.
Design Manager
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I have a question for those who have actually played with gunslingers and are posting on this thread about the problems...
If guns were changed to target normal AC instead of touch AC, making them effectively like every other weapon in the game, would their power level become balanced enough to use?
If you do this, you'll also want to remove the misfire chance and reduce the cost of ammunition. Remove the cons as well as the pros. And also give the gunslinger actual class features.
I honestly think this is how guns should have been implemented from the beginning.
On this VL and I are very much in agreement. Make it a normal weapon that functions very similarly to a crossbow but with different stats. If you feel like the mechanics need some real-life verisimilitude to reflect the fact that a leather jacket doesn't do much against bullets in the real world, then make the whole punching through armor thing either a Grit based ability with an appropriate cost, or give firearms a set penetration rating that allows them to bypass a small, set amount of armor bonus to AC determined by the type of firearm.
For example, a pistol could have a set penetration rating of 2, allowing it to blow through leather armor fairly easily when targeting within its first range increment, and then an advanced firearm like a rifle might have a penetration rating of 4 or 5. This gives the firearm a small edge reflective of its status as an exotic weapon in most campaign settings and offset by its reload costs, without ignoring the scaling design of creatures and encounters, or requiring an unwieldy and inconsistent "balancing" mechanic like misfires.
If you feel like the mechanics need some real-life verisimilitude to reflect the fact that a leather jacket doesn't do much against bullets in the real world, then make the whole punching through armor thing either a Grit based ability with an appropriate cost,
This is a good idea. It accomplishes the same thing in the end as the current gunslinger (gunslingers get to target touch AC while minimizing the bag of downsides that go along with guns) but it goes about it in a much better way. Then, the gunslinger's class abilities aren't about making the downsides to guns less bad. Instead, they are about making current abilities better.
Would one grit point per ever 2 AC ignored be a sufficient cost? I could simply slip it in as a replacement for the clearing of misfires, and at the same time it would be an ability that, if saved for, could be really useful a grand total of once in battle if they chose to blow all of their grit to completely ignore an enemy's AC.
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Class abilities of one class shouldn't be used to say guns are broken.
Thats kind of like saying peanut butter is a horrible food without considering its synergy with jelly.
And its not One class. The fighter, the ranger, the inquisitor with bane going can make guns incredibly nasty. You can't consider an item in question in a vaccum you have to consider it as part of the environment.
The weapon comes with a scaling + to hit. At first level the + can be anywhere from +4 to +9. By 10th level the + is around +15
Your check nets you 225sp worth of work a week making you less than 2 paper alchemical cartridges a week of crafting 8 hours a day.
Then buy them. You're an adventurer. You have enough net worth and income to buy a peasant villiage and set 50 of them to supply your own personal army.
They're expensive for a peasant or a first level character. They're insanely cheap for a 5th level character and not even pocket change for a 10th level one.
The same thing would stop an archer.
Not sure which point relates to the archer here. The rules on free actions are listed in the CRB. A GM has full control over the number of free actions you get per round.
Your idea is that there are limits on free actions. That limit will stop a gunslinger from reloading. Drawing an arrow from a quiver is also a free action. If it limits the gunslinger then it limits the archer.
There are two primary issues with firearms and both are related to one core issue
Careless DMING
First off DM's, if guns don't exist in your setting then they DON'T EXIST so it's fine.
If they're rare then ADVANCED FIREARMS DON'T EXIST
and if they're prevalent then PEOPLE ARE GEARED TO FIGHT GUNMEN
Barring a new fighter archetype (Which i'd ban off the bat) there is only one real way to get additional damage on a firearm consistently. a five level dip in gunslinger.
at level five, people are beginning to all get pretty good in pure-classes
at level five a gunslinger gets dex to damage.. a fighter had double his feats, a rogue has +2d6 to damage with any attack (If they're smart enough), A wizard has... wizardry.. clerics are full progression casing in full plate... Druids are two dangerous creatures...
just about everyone at that point is equal.
I have a question for those who have actually played with gunslingers and are posting on this thread about the problems...
If guns were changed to target normal AC instead of touch AC, making them effectively like every other weapon in the game, would their power level become balanced enough to use?
I apologize if this has been addressed earlier; it probably has, but I don't remember it coming up in the discussion. If it has, please direct me there.
If gunslingers were to target normal AC the class would become crap instead of "mostly crap if you don't do specific things with your build no options allowed, and even then you are only competent as a generic optimized martial is" that you have now.
Gunslingers are competent at their one thing, anything done to nerf this would drop them down to being useless.
My GM doesn't allow guns because to him, if someone made a gun, it would change the world
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and if they're prevalent then PEOPLE ARE GEARED TO FIGHT GUNMEN
there currently isn't a whole lot in the way of equipment for that. They really should add a bulletproof enhancement or something to get the armors bonus vs touch attacks.
Barring a new fighter archetype (Which i'd ban off the bat) there is only one real way to get additional damage on a firearm consistently. a five level dip in gunslinger.
Inquisitor judgements, inquisitor bane, weapon specialization, ranger favored enemy, enhancement bonuses on the weapon, holy weapon on the gun (or ammo), greater magic weapon...
Would one grit point per ever 2 AC ignored be a sufficient cost? I could simply slip it in as a replacement for the clearing of misfires, and at the same time it would be an ability that, if saved for, could be really useful a grand total of once in battle if they chose to blow all of their grit to completely ignore an enemy's AC.Grit is expensive due to a limited supply. Gunslingers wouldn't use it much. (Unless it's based on a grit reservoir, in which case you just aren't going to ever use grit for anything else, because a free attack bonus is just huge.)
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe rangers or archer fighters can do anything similar either.
I would be opposed to such a system on "flavor" grounds as well. Pathfinder is not realistic, PF bows, crossbows and melee weapons aren't realistic, so the guns should not be. We don't even know how well bullets should penetrate PF armor because the types of armor being used don't "scale with technology level" and are unrealistic in pretty much every way.
Not using it much is kinda the point, but I see what you are saying. It would be a case where the result would be less powerful.
What about 1 grit point to give an attack bonus equal to one half their level (minimum 1) that is available at first level? It reflects that their focus and training with firearms allows them to make more effective use of the weapons, and allows their experience to make them even deadlier while at the same time not draining their grit pool every time they want to fully utilize it.
To add to that, divide the prices of both firearms and ammunition by 10 and do away with the fire lance entirely. That brings them in line with the rest of the weapons in the game and makes them viable for many characters without making them overpowered. It also brings the costs of the alchemical ammunition down to reasonable levels. The magic prices can be left alone.
Part of my problem with buffing the class is that it appears to have been designed along the same philosophy as the fighter class and seems to be intended to play along the same lines. However, just looking at the skills, it appears this class manages to also have more utility.
I could see it being argued they should get an inherent buff to perception checks that goes up every few levels; after all, all of that time practicing aiming has a potential to increase their general awareness of what is around them. It also, thematically, fits in with the Nimble class feature; they are more nimble and more perceptive as a result of the perception practice they get just aiming the weapon.
The reason I see for not buffing the guns is the fact that the gunslinger class is really supposed to be your path towards gaining a lot of weapon proficiency and the alchemical cartridges exist specifically to speed up loading. It requires a bit more of a monetary investment still, but at the same time it can result in weapons that are reloaded quite rapidly for someone who makes the investment and maintains the superiority of the gunfighter class in dealing with firearms.
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No, it's exactly like saying color spray is broken because a dip in oracle can make it devastating. X isn't broken because of Y if Y only applies to a single aspect. It's the interaction of Y with X that breaks it. The opposite of what you're saying.
Already refuted. Here
And its not One class. The fighter, the ranger, the inquisitor with bane going can make guns incredibly nasty. You can't consider an item in question in a vaccum you have to consider it as part of the environment.These apply to those classes with any weapon not just guns. Again not exclusive to the one thing being argued.
But those abilities are infinitely better on guns, because guns make it so much easier to hit.
This one is true on the nature of monsters and size. Humanoids, or just creatures medium and below don't necessarily scale in this way.
Sure they do.
At 10th level a fighter is rocking
+2 dex
+2 deflection
+2 plate (+11)
Amulet of natural armor +2
Shield +2 (+4)
+2 amulet of natural armor.
=19 points of AC that the gun is cutting through.
The argument was that it's more expensive than regular bullets. Just because your WBL scales doesn't remove the fact these are more expensive than regular bullets.
That is a total non argument. 'Sling bullets cost more than rocks, therefore they're a limiting factor on slings!'
At level 10 you have at most 2 attacks per round for a single weapon or even more with TWF. Average combat will be 3-4 rounds making it 6-8 shots a combat. Generally 3-4 combats a day making it 18-32 shots a day. 12gp a shot for the paper ones meaning 206-374gp a day in ammunition.
Your income scales exponentially while your cost increases liniarly. meaning that it matters less and less the higher you go. Your cash scales much faster than your cost.
Somebody earlier requested actual experience of using guns.
Well here's a simple comparison between a basic archer and gunslinger.
I will assume a dex of 18 for both. You can get higher but that applies to both characters. I am also ignoring magic weapons and point blank shot for the same reason.
At 5th level you get:
BAB of 5 + dex bonus of 4 = to hit of 9. Rapid shot allows a 2nd attack, both at +7. Deadly Aim drops accuracy again for a damage boost, yielding 2 attacks each at +5.
So the archer gets +5, +5 doing 1d8+4 with each shot. And a decent chance of missing.
The gunslinger also has +5, +5 but doing 1d12+8 with each shot and with a decent chance of hitting with both.
As soon as you optimise them both and get a higher bonus to hit, not only does the gunslinger get more damage, but he could use a double barrelled gun and double his shots (and therefore his damage output) while still being able to hit most enemies.
In my experience (which might not be universal), the two big advantages the gunslinger gets are 1) being able to add dex to damage and; 2) using a double barrelled weapon while still being able to hit successfully.
I like the gunslinger and using guns in Pathfinder but having them in the game requires the GM to be aware of how they work. In a similar manner to having to be aware of the ragepouncecharge barbarian and wizards in general.
And in all these cases (and many others too) the first time a given GM faces a new situation it is likely to end badly and some people will prefer to ban something rather than try to work out a solution.
In the end, in my opinion, the decision about whether you should allow guns in a campaign should depend upon the flavour and style you want to play.
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Hey everyone, I am currently working on a setting where firearms will be rather advanced and pervasive as a result.
Now I know there are many complaints with firearms in pathfinder. But I don't think i have ever heard any specific arguments, either it was "Gunslingers are overpowered" or something about guns being poorly implemented, without any explanation how so.
So I wanted to ask what exactly makes guns so poorly implemented? What are the exact reasons people don't ike them the way they work in Pathfinder.
And this is purely mechanically speaking, I understand and don't care why you might not want them for flavbor reasons.
A lot of the arguments I've read on the forums focus on the stupid amounts of damage that gunslingers can do. I've never seen this as a problem though, as bow fighters in our games fill exactly the same role. They both just sit back and kill enemies in a round, maybe two. For our games, I just treat the gunslinger & the bow fighter as essentially the same thing.
The idea you've got for the game is going to be really fun though! I've run a similar game, and while it didn't get but a few sessions in before we had to drop it, it's really interesting to see the changes in character generation and battle grid tactics once guns become prevalent.
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Quick Summary:
Guns have a huge benefit in Pathfinder; their attacks within the first range increment target the victim's touch AC. That is a huge benefit, and effectively makes armor useless against firearms. You are free to argue whether or not this is historically correct, but the point remains that Pathfinder firearms blast through all types of armor as easily as paper.
In order to balance out this monstrous benefit, firearms were given a number of powerful disincentives as balancing factors. Of note in no particular order: 1) long reloading times that are difficult to circumvent, making full attacks difficult with firearms, 2) extremely short range increments that are only moderately better than thrown weapons, 3) extremely expensive weapons and ammunition, and 4) a critical fumble system entirely unique to this weapon category that is difficult to circumvent. This makes firearm usage extremely similar to mounted archery, which has massive benefits but also massive penalties.
The difference between mounted archery and firearms? The gunslinger. If you look at the mounted archery feats, 90% of them circumvent the penalties one suffers for making ranged attacks while mounted. When you take a mounted archery feat, you aren't getting better because you're gaining awesome bonuses or special abilities; you're getting better because you're lowering the inherent penalties associated with mounted archery. The difference between mounted archery and firearms is that most of the major penalties associated with firearms; the poor range, the misfire mechanic, and the poor loading time, specifically, are all circumvented not by feats that anyone has access to, but by deeds that only a gunslinger can select. When combined with a fighting style specifically noted for being very feat-intensive, what happens is that only the gunslinger or archetypes specifically built to mirror some of his cool deeds are *really* effective at using firearms. That is, unless you allow advanced firearms in your campaign setting. But as many will note, the double-barreled rules are ridiculously potent for their abilities.
Considering all of this, the root of the problem is the touch AC mechanic of the firearms. Simply put, the game wasn't designed for characters with full attack bonuses continuously resolving their attacks against a creature's touch AC. Because of this, the gunslinger's general strategy becomes, "take as many penalties to hit as possible in exchange for damage," and even when he's making a rapid shot/deadly aim attack two range increments away, he's still hitting easily. The game does not have mechanics that increase touch AC substantially, and as a result, it does not have many monsters designed to challenge the gunslinger.
In essence, the firearm mechanics transform guns into Pathfinder's version of sonic energy damage; a great idea that the system was not designed to handle.
Sonic energy damage was not originally part of D&D 3rd Edition; it was added to the game during the 3.5 Edition revamp.While cool and awesome, sonic energy posed a problem in that none of the game's existing spells or monsters had resistance or immunity to sonic damage, nor did many spells or effects exist that counted sonic damage. Rather than update monsters or add a bunch of new, sonic-resistance monsters, the game's designers decided to make sonic-dealing spells deal less damage, scale less well, and be primarily resigned to, "save or sucks with a sonic-damage slap" effects.
I've only run one game with a gunslinger, but here are the big things I noticed.
Always hitting touch AC means they almost always hit, with the ability to drop grit to do this at pretty long range and advanced guns doing it even further it makes them be able to dish damage like crazy at pretty damn high range.
Called shot. For the love of god I hate this ability. no costs and make a touch attack, do regular damage and auto trip/disarm the person with no save. This MAY cost a point of grit, it has been some time, but I remember this ability made a lot of encounters pretty trivial to the point where the gunslinger opted to self nerf each called shot to once per target.
Lastly, I don't remember lol, but called shot and consistent high damage were the two dangerous things I saw with my time with them.
I wouldn't disallow them, but if they can be abused quite evily if someone has the mind to.
there currently isn't a whole lot in the way of equipment for that. They really should add a bulletproof enhancement or something to get the armors bonus vs touch attacks.Gloves of arrow snaring, deflect/snatch arrow feats
Ok, that stops one bullet. And the other 12 they're shooting this round?
total defense fighting defensive
Do nothing/less to make yourself marginally harder to hit...
Guns are made of metal and susceptible to everything metal items are unlike bows.
Warp wood.
I've only run one game with a gunslinger, but here are the big things I noticed.
Always hitting touch AC means they almost always hit, with the ability to drop grit to do this at pretty long range and advanced guns doing it even further it makes them be able to dish damage like crazy at pretty damn high range.
Called shot. For the love of god I hate this ability. no costs and make a touch attack, do regular damage and auto trip/disarm the person with no save. This MAY cost a point of grit, it has been some time, but I remember this ability made a lot of encounters pretty trivial to the point where the gunslinger opted to self nerf each called shot to once per target.
Lastly, I don't remember lol, but called shot and consistent high damage were the two dangerous things I saw with my time with them.
I wouldn't disallow them, but if they can be abused quite evily if someone has the mind to.
1) You are accounting for ADVANCED FIREARMS??? If you read the rules, advanced firearms only show up when guns are EVERYWHERE. When everyone and their mother has a gun. So you (or who ever the GM was) has being horridly ignorant and irresponsible and wants to blame the game when it was his own lack of knowledge and understanding and his own irresponsibility that caused the issue.
2) Do you know how much Grit a gunslinger has? His WIs mod. Which probably isn't super high. So he has a VERY limited amount of grit. Getting a crit with a fire arm is rather rare, so it is unlikely you will get grit from that. To kill someone is the most common way, but that requires that YOU do the killing blow. If the Barbarian goes all hulk smash through the line, well that screws you.
3) The deed you speak of, Deadeye, costs alot of grit...
Deadeye (Ex): At 1st level, the gunslinger can resolve an attack against touch AC instead of normal AC when firing beyond her firearm’s first range increment. Performing this deed costs 1 grit point per range increment beyond the first. The gunslinger still takes the –2 penalty on attack rolls for each range increment beyond the first when she performs this deed
So when you use Deadeye, it costs 1 point per 30 ft (assuming pistol) beyond the first. Oh! And it still gives you the cumultive -2 penalty. And this is for EACH ATTACK. You can burn through all of grit points in 2 turns like that... Which hurts ALOT for the gunslinger (since alot of their abilities require them to simply HAVE grit points left).
3) Targeting (Ex): At 7th level, as a full-round action, the gunslinger can make a single firearm attack and choose part of the body to target. She gains the following effects depending on the part of the body targeted. If a creature does not have one of the listed body locations, that part cannot be targeted. This deed costs 1 grit point to perform no matter which part of the creature she targets. Creatures that are immune to sneak attacks are immune to these effects.
Arms: On a hit, the target takes no damage from the hit but drops one carried item of the gunslinger’s choice, even if the item is wielded with two hands. Items held in a locked gauntlet are not dropped on a hit.
Head: On a hit, the target is damaged normally, and is also confused for 1 round. This is a mind-affecting effect.
Legs: On a hit, the target is damaged normally and knocked prone. Creatures that have four or more legs or that are immune to trip attacks are immune to this effect.
Torso: Targeting the torso threatens a critical on a 19–20.
Wings: On a hit, the target is damaged normally, and must make a DC 20 Fly check or fall 20 ft.
So Targetting ALWAYS requires 1 grit. ALWAYS. Oh, and it takes a full round action to make 1 hit...Now lets break it down shall we?
Arms:On a hit, the target takes no damage from the hit but drops one carried item of the gunslinger’s choice, even if the item is wielded with two hands. Items held in a locked gauntlet are not dropped on a hit. So pretty much it is disarm... as a full round action... that costs GOLD to do.... cool story? At low levels its nice, but at higher levels when you go up against alot of natural attacks, it does a whole lot of nothing
Head: On a hit, the target is damaged normally, and is also confused for 1 round. This is a mind-affecting effect. So you spent a whole round and gold AND a grit point to confuse for 1 round? really? The wizard can do this as a school ability at no cost as a standard action... So can the Oracle. And the Cleric. The Alchemist can do this AND do a wall of damage... So yeah... not that good..
Legs: On a hit, the target is damaged normally and knocked prone. Creatures that have four or more legs or that are immune to trip attacks are immune to this effect. This is a little nicer. Good for the rogue to get sneaks and such. But again, at this level you run into a lot fo things that are immune to trip (see dragon or legless creatures like Nagas). But for the cost of a full round action, the price of bullet, AND 1 grit point, its pretty good. But does not make an encounter a breeze.
Torso:Targeting the torso threatens a critical on a 19–20. So pretty much gives your gun keen. For a single round. Not that good...
Wings:On a hit, the target is damaged normally, and must make a DC 20 Fly check or fall 20 ft. DC 20 fly check? Not that hard... at all...
So all in all, Targetting, while nifty, is not that overpowered and by no ways trivializes everything. What had actually happened was most likely your GM was not proficient in the gunslinger/fire arms and wasn't doing things like keeping track of the gunslingers grit. Don't blame the class for your own ineptitude and ignorance. A monk can look pretty damn deadly when you don't keep track of how much Ki he is burning though....
there currently isn't a whole lot in the way of equipment for that. They really should add a bulletproof enhancement or something to get the armors bonus vs touch attacks.Gloves of arrow snaring, deflect/snatch arrow featsOk, that stops one bullet. And the other 12 they're shooting this round?
Way to show your ignorance. Care to explain how the gunslinger is shooting off 12 rounds? Unless of course the gunslinger is using 2 revolvers, but revolvers are a very corner case and the game is not balanced toward them. They are balanced to early era weapons...
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I have GM'ed and played with a friend that ran his gunslinger thru retirement. My only problem with the class is the Ricochet shot deed.
Many posters complain about the Touch AC Mechanic that Pazio choose to use for Gunslingers. Most of these people know nothing about guns and how they work. If you do not use the Touch AC mechanic then you have to create a AC penetration by the weapons caliber and range for instance a .44 mag would get a +5 to hit AC 25 and below with in 30' this would fall off to +5 to hit vs ac 22 out to 100 yards. A .69 cal musket would get a +5 bonus to hit AC 18 and below and this would drop to ac 14 out to 100 yards also the damage increases for a musket to 4d6x4 then would drop to 1d12 out to 100 yards. This is taken from another RPG game that both magic and Tech and they worked very well together.
Way to show your ignorance. Care to explain how the gunslinger is shooting off 12 rounds? Unless of course the gunslinger is using 2 revolvers, but revolvers are a very corner case and the game is not balanced toward them. They are balanced to early era weapons...there currently isn't a whole lot in the way of equipment for that. They really should add a bulletproof enhancement or something to get the armors bonus vs touch attacks.Gloves of arrow snaring, deflect/snatch arrow featsOk, that stops one bullet. And the other 12 they're shooting this round?
Pepperbox weapons. Existed in real life. In game, they each hold six rounds. And they're early-firearm pistols.
dont forget also that reloading triggers AoO. ANd you only get the touch thing within 30 ft. Any creature with that much reach will be getting more AoO than I can handle against JUST the gunslinger. Add in the fact that gunslingers depend on lighter armors....
So yeah, that touch AC thing is not THAT bad...
Pepperbox weapons. Existed in real life. In game, they each hold six rounds. And they're early-firearm pistols.Way to show your ignorance. Care to explain how the gunslinger is shooting off 12 rounds? Unless of course the gunslinger is using 2 revolvers, but revolvers are a very corner case and the game is not balanced toward them. They are balanced to early era weapons...there currently isn't a whole lot in the way of equipment for that. They really should add a bulletproof enhancement or something to get the armors bonus vs touch attacks.Gloves of arrow snaring, deflect/snatch arrow featsOk, that stops one bullet. And the other 12 they're shooting this round?
Except that you cannot dual-wield them....
Pepperbox: This pistol has six barrels instead of one. The entire barrel housing can be quickly rotated by hand between shots (a free action requiring one free hand), allowing all six bullets to be fired before the weapon must be reloaded. Each barrel of a pepperbox uses either a bullet and a single dose of black powder or a single alchemical cartridge as ammunition.
If you are dual wielding you do not have a free hand... So again... how are you shooting off 12 rounds?
Except that you cannot dual-wield them....
Pepperbox: This pistol has six barrels instead of one. The entire barrel housing can be quickly rotated by hand between shots (a free action requiring one free hand), allowing all six bullets to be fired before the weapon must be reloaded. Each barrel of a pepperbox uses either a bullet and a single dose of black powder or a single alchemical cartridge as ammunition.
If you are dual wielding you do not have a free hand... So again... how are you shooting off 12 rounds?
I think the better question you should be asking is how a gunslinger is firing 13 shots while dual-wielding weapons that only hold 6 each each (his comment was saying that, after the first shot is caught, the next twelve would keep coming... that's thirteen shots total).
Managing to rotate the barrels of pepperbox weapons without any free hands is probably the least absurd item of the entire scenario :P
Edit: And even if they managed it, the class is limited to four attacks in a round... meaning maximum of eight shots in a full attack. In most rounds, a gunslinger should only be firing a maximum of four shots at level 20.
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Design Manager
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Way to show your ignorance. Care to explain how the gunslinger is shooting off 12 rounds? Unless of course the gunslinger is using 2 revolvers, but revolvers are a very corner case and the game is not balanced toward them. They are balanced to early era weapons...
Way to break the most important rule of the forums.
A Gunslinger with a Glove of Storing or an extra limb (you'd be surprised how easy either of those options are to get) can still dual wield double-barreled pistols for around 18 attacks by 16th level (counting Haste). That's an easily available option within the core presumptions of the Gunslinger. Really, through some insane fluke of the Gunslinger's poor design, I would rather have to deal with advanced firearms than the stuff that actually is legal under the core assumptions.
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Design Manager
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dont forget also that reloading triggers AoO.
Deft Shootist. You can grab it by level 2, well before most archers can negate attacks of opportunity, and it works for attacking and reloading.
ANd you only get the touch thing within 30 ft.
Totally aside from the fact that the 30 feet thing isn't much of a limiter, Gunslingers get Deadeye right from level one. If you spend a feat on Signature Deed, that doubles the range with no Grit cost.
Any creature with that much reach will be getting more AoO than I can handle against JUST the gunslinger. Add in the fact that gunslingers depend on lighter armors....
And the fact that Gunslingers are basically SAD for Dex and get Nimble which boosts their AC, making them at least as solid defensively as a Rogue, Cleric, Ranger, or just about anyone else who spends time in melee. They're also way more likely to go first with built-in initiative boosters.
The issue isn't with the Gunslinger though. The issue is that they built a crappy system for handling firearms and then built a class whose class features revolve around overcoming the weapons weaknesses, which when combined with other work-arounds leads to positively retarded things that are perfectly valid in the rules. They both introduced a weapon that the game isn't designed to deal with, and at the same instance decided to introduce a poorly thought out and inconsistent "balancing" mechanic in misfires, which makes rolling a critical miss even worse for the average player, and which isn't going to be an issue at all for a player with high system mastery.
Way to show your ignorance. Care to explain how the gunslinger is shooting off 12 rounds? Unless of course the gunslinger is using 2 revolvers, but revolvers are a very corner case and the game is not balanced toward them. They are balanced to early era weapons...
Way to break the most important rule of the forums.
A Gunslinger with a Glove of Storing or an extra limb (you'd be surprised how easy either of those options are to get) can still dual wield double-barreled pistols for around 18 attacks by 16th level (counting Haste). That's an easily available option within the core presumptions of the Gunslinger. Really, through some insane fluke of the Gunslinger's poor design, I would rather have to deal with advanced firearms than the stuff that actually is legal under the core assumptions.
Except that he can't shoot of more than 4 by level 20 in a round due to BAB... so yeah...
Funny thing is, the Archer (in particular a Zen Archer) is more of a Machine Gun than a gun slinger... At level 20, the Zen Archer gets 8 attacks at +18/+18/+18/+13/+13/+8/+8/+3 (before adding things like his WIS mod and such) at the cost of 1 ki point. Or He can forgo the extra attacks (for ONLY 7 attacks) and increase his damage to 2d10. Heck, a lvl 15 monk can increase his arrow's damage to 2d10 with a Monk's Robe...
And he is doing this at a range FAR greater than 20 ft... (try 5 times the distance...)
dont forget also that reloading triggers AoO.Deft Shootist. You can grab it by level 2, well before most archers can negate attacks of opportunity, and it works for attacking and reloading.
ANd you only get the touch thing within 30 ft.Totally aside from the fact that the 30 feet thing isn't much of a limiter, Gunslingers get Deadeye right from level one. If you spend a feat on Signature Deed, that doubles the range with no Grit cost.
Any creature with that much reach will be getting more AoO than I can handle against JUST the gunslinger. Add in the fact that gunslingers depend on lighter armors....And the fact that Gunslingers are basically SAD for Dex and get Nimble which boosts their AC, making them at least as solid defensively as a Rogue, Cleric, Ranger, or just about anyone else who spends time in melee. They're also way more likely to go first with built-in initiative boosters.
The issue isn't with the Gunslinger though. The issue is that they built a crappy system for handling firearms and then built a class whose class features revolve around overcoming the weapons weaknesses, which when combined with other work-arounds leads to positively retarded things that are perfectly valid in the rules. They both introduced a weapon that the game isn't designed to deal with, and at the same instance decided to introduce a poorly thought out and inconsistent "balancing" mechanic in misfires, which makes rolling a critical miss even worse for the average player, and which isn't going to be an issue at all for a player with high system mastery.
ok so he can spend ANOTHER feat... As if the gunslinger does not already require more than half of your feats JUST TO BE ABLE TO OPERATE...
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Design Manager
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They get 4 attacks for BAB, 3 attacks for two-weapon fighting , 1 attack for Rapid Shot, 1 attack for Haste, and then multiply all of that by 2 for using a double-barreled weapon. All perfectly viable and doable within the rules. Now you are the one showing your ignorance.
And the range of the archer is pretty much irrelevant. So what if he can shoot something at 100 ft.? You ever play this on a grid like it's designed to be played? How many maps do you think there are where the archer actually gets to start full attacking from that range?
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Design Manager
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ok so he can spend ANOTHER feat... As if the gunslinger does not already require more than half of your feats JUST TO BE ABLE TO OPERATE...
Not really any more than any ranged character. Rapid Reload which doesn't have to be taken by someone using a longbow. Good thing he gets bonus feats.
They get 4 attacks for BAB, 3 attacks for two-weapon fighting , 1 attack for Rapid Shot, 1 attack for Haste, and then multiply all of that by 2 for using a double-barreled weapon. All perfectly viable and doable within the rules. Now you are the one showing your ignorance.
And you're combining rapid reload with alchemical rounds and the fact it's a pistol to have reloading as a free action and reloading between shots?
They get 4 attacks for BAB, 3 attacks for two-weapon fighting , 1 attack for Rapid Shot, 1 attack for Haste, and then multiply all of that by 2 for using a double-barreled weapon. All perfectly viable and doable within the rules. Now you are the one showing your ignorance.
And the range of the archer is pretty much irrelevant. So what if he can shoot something at 100 ft.? You ever play this on a grid like it's designed to be played? How many maps do you think there are where the archer actually gets to start full attacking from that range?
Except you cannot TWF if using the Gloves of storing. So unless you dip into Alchemist for a few levels to get a discovery, or into witch to get prehensile hair, you can't TWF. You get one from haste IF someone cast haste on you. (is was not assuming for other people casting stuff one you). As for the x2, how do you plan to pull that off? Sure you can try and reload both chambers of a double pistol, but remember, a GM can AND SHOULD limit how many free actions you can do in a turn. and reloading 18 times seems a little out there.
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dont forget also that reloading triggers AoO. ANd you only get the touch thing within 30 ft. Any creature with that much reach will be getting more AoO than I can handle against JUST the gunslinger. Add in the fact that gunslingers depend on lighter armors....
So yeah, that touch AC thing is not THAT bad...
Touch AC inside the first range increment which is 20 feet for 4 of the one handed firearms and 10 feet for the other 4. 30-40 feet for the 2 handed firearms with a couple exceptions of 10 feet and 50 feet.
10 feet is easily in range of most creatures at higher levels that people have argued here so you're gonna provoke from each shot you make along with reloading. 20 feet is a little better.
This board is all about opinion resistance/adamantine(or maybe epic) with very little people doing the theory craft and math involved. Much like the 13 shots a round which is already outside the potential number of attacks for any character all the way to level 20.
A level 20 gunslinger TWF with advanced revolvers will get off 8 shots with regular attacks or 10 shots with rapid shot or haste and 12 shots if they combine. Using early firearms and rapid reload + alchemical cartridges to allow free action reload means the GM is going to allow 10 free actions in a round with the previous example. You also require a free had to load a firearm. If one hand is occupied by a firearm how do you free up the other hand holding a firearm to reload either gun without dropping one. You can free action to move a weapon to the other hand (shield hand) for casting as a cleric but that's because the shield isn't occupying the hand, it's strapped to your arm.
All classes get play tested. If there was some glaring discrepancy it would have come out during the play test phase. My guess is people don't fully understand the rules that govern the weapon and the misunderstanding is causing the imbalance.
You know, the more I read this, the more I'm getting my question answered.
Mainly, I have a question... What sane GM would allow you to pull that many free actions in a round? I could see getting off twelve shots due to firing both barrels of a double-barreled weapon. Anything more than that is requiring three free actions in a row, combined with the already-questionable logic of allowing two free actions between every attack.
More and more, it honestly looks like paying close attention to the rules and minding common sense makes gunslingers not be one-round dragon killers people are selling them as.
It's also beginning to make me think that, maybe, playing the game tactically and having monsters actually act their Int scores makes gunslingers a lot less likely to be successful. After all, a gunslinger can't use an attack of opportunity with an empty weapon, which means being charged by an orc immediately after firing could potentially ruin their day.
Edit: Corrected my math.