Goblin Squad Member
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And so it shall be, that in the days of open enrollment, Pharasma shall send forth the legions of newbs and alts unto the lands of the Crusader Road. Like locusts they shall descend, more than the stars in the sky they shall number. And they shall ride upon the steeds of 1000 reputation wielding before them fiery blades of low ability scores.
Laid before them stand the settlements of the EE players. Their resources laid bare, and their reputations treasured. Among these heedless mortals shall sit the prophet warning of the calamities to come. His disciples and him having prepared their bomb shelters and stocked them with such sustaining substances as hot pockets, oreos, spam, and mountain dew. Ready shall he and his stand against the coming tide, and for just $98.67, your first born child and your credit card number, they can help you prepare too.
Meanwhile the mocker and the fools who follow him shall open their gates and throw out the welcome mats for these... these... FIENDS!!! They shall crash down upon him with a Tsunami and he shall not be prepared for their great evils.
The first will be Bzelbargoogleyes the starer. He shall come upon the mocker and stare. And the mocker shall stare back. And he shall stare more. And the mocker will offer him a drink. AND HE SHALL STARE MORE!!! Until the afk tag appears next to his name and the server boots him for inactivity. OH LAMENT YEE CRUSADER ROADS FOR THE FATE THAT AWAITS THE UNBELIEVER!!!
The next shall be Shumshumgrawlorgboob the resource harvester. He shall harvest wood, stone, iron, and that plant that maketh ropes and peace pipes. And the mocker shall not care!!! Until there is an iron shortage, after which the mocker charges for iron harvesting rights. And Shumshumgrawlorgboob shall pay him for rights. AND HE SHALL THANK HIM! But Shumshumgrawlorgnoob shall not pay him for rights, and try to harvest anyway. And he shall kill him, without consequence, because he broke the laws of the settlement, and because newb miners are easy to kill. BEHOLD THE FATE THAT AWAITS YOU MOCKER!!!!!!!!!!!
The next shall be Luciferrari666satan. AND HE SHALL WIELD A MIGHTY BLADE AGAINST THE MOCKER!!! SEE NOW!!! SEE WHAT AWAITS YOU OH YOU WHO LAUGH AT YOUR APPROACHING DOOM!!! DOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOM!!!! Do0o0o0o0o0oo00oo00o0ooo0o0o0o0o0o0o0o00o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o00o0o0o0o0o00o0o 00oo0o00o0o0o0o0o00o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0oo0o0o0o0o0M!!!!!! And he shall get the attacker flag! And the mocker shall kill him without consequence because Luciferrari666satan initiated the conflict. DOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOM!!! DOOOM! DOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOODMOMOMFAOMFAOWMFOWAFAMWFOWANGOAWNGOWANGOANGEONGEAOAFNW AO! .... *doom!*
But then the great prophet shall come upon a naked newb harvesting in the forest. And the forest shall not belong to him. And he shall kill him for he desirith his wood be-eth to lazy to SAD him for some reason. AND HE SHALL TAKE A REP PENALTY! AND THE PROPHECIES SHALL BE FULFILLED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Goblin Squad Member
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Your sarcasm aside, there is no system that can defy the mathematical reality that shear numbers + a slight power curve = win for the the host with the most.
In order to shift the advantage away from the numerically superior but experience poor side, the numerically inferior but more skilled characters would have to have a steeper power curve to compensate.
The power curve can create a gap between new and old in a number of ways. Through skills, access to more or higher tier key words, to higher tier equipment, etc. those would all contribute to the increase in the gap, making the assertion that the power curve is slight, false.
The idea that numbers don't count and power curve is slight is a falsehood or a failed experiment in the making. You simply can't have both, without creating the Naked Noob Apocalypse. To avoid the Naked Boob Apocalypse GW needs to make older characters virtual Demi gods in comparison.
A level 20 character should be able to withstand the assault of dozens of level 0 noobs, while singing "You can't Touch This!" (Sorry can't link, at work). Or, the level 20 should get in touch with his inner Conan, break out his two handed sword, and cut them down like wheat! Reciting the answer to the question "What is best in life?"
As for your thread, I'm not sure if you are serious, but the Devs did react to some of my questions concerning the Naked Noob Reputation Bomb, and that does not only apply to AOE attacks. It also does not only apply to PvP combat or harm the individual character's reputation. Naked noobs could be used to diminish a settlements DIs, increase a settlement's corruption and devastate the meta sense that it is a safe place to travel to.
For the Devs, don't fall into the belief that these types of players pay to advance their characters' abilities. They play to spoil the game for kicks. You can wipe their toons, or ban their accounts, they will come back with a new account and pay another $15.00 to spoil our day again.
Game code account bans are more costly and effective, for example.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I don't see anything in the OP that is anything except working as intended.
The OP is not actually saying anything. He takes no side in the debate. You can read it and come away that systems proposed can not work. You can read it and say, they will work.
A little too much sarcasm and innuendo, and any meaning he had meant to convey has been lost to interpretation.
His last comment about, too lazy to SAD, is not accurate. The SAD mechanic is actually easier to use then the use if raiding, ambush or other means to rob someone.
A lone woodcutter in the woods would not likely be a target for organized bandits.
Andius' primary frame of reference is Darkfall. PFO will be different from Darkfall, in that it will allow for larger and more profitable harvesting outposts. These will be the targets for raider / bandits, not lone Joe Schmo in the woods. The same will hold true for caravans and likely other types of POIs.
The class of player character that Andius claims he wishes to protect will largely not exist in PFO, nor be subject to the same forms of predation found in Darkfall. That has little to do with the alignment or reputation systems, btw. It will have more to do with GW providing circumstances and targets that are more profitable than the solo player being RPKd in the woods.
I have always said, focus more on the meaningful reasons to PvP, and GW will reduce the need for consequences for PvP outside of that meaning. The reduction will be realized by making RPKing a waste of time.
That seems to me to be the system they are trying to build. Nearly all PvP, with a meaningful and recognizable motive, will be consequence free.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Harbinger, I think the "flatter power curve" is talking specifically about skills. In other words, if a level 20 fights a level 10 and they're both naked with very basic weapons, there isn't much difference in power based purely on the character's levels. The way you can have a slight power curve in that specific regard and still have the numerically disadvantaged win is through gear (more specifically armor), mechanics like formations, party buffs unlocked at higher levels, and so on. I'd say that the current picture we have suggests the power curve won't be nearly as flat as most people assume, especially for the first few levels of a combat class; naked level 1's would probably need to outnumber level 4's at least 3 or 4 to 1 to win the fight, which is difficult in a game that discourages running solo (in other words, you need upwards of 40 naked noobs running around together to be able to win against most of the groups you'll find, at which point people will realize they're probably better off not using naked noobs).
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Goblin Squad Member
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Well i hope even naked there is a difference. If nothing else stat boosts from training skills, training passive skills (like weapon spec), and simple having access to more attack/evasion/gap close/escape skills makes a level 20 more powerful. Not because he skills hit 3x as hard but because he has more options and he can exploit his opponent not having those.
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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I don't see anything in the OP that is anything except working as intended.The OP is not actually saying anything. He takes no side in the debate. You can read it and come away that systems proposed can not work. You can read it and say, they will work.
A little too much sarcasm and innuendo, and any meaning he had meant to convey has been lost to interpretation.
There are several stories and narratives there, and I was responding to the assertions that some of the behavior described was problematic or griefing.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I don't see anything in the OP that is anything except working as intended.The OP is not actually saying anything. He takes no side in the debate. You can read it and come away that systems proposed can not work. You can read it and say, they will work.
A little too much sarcasm and innuendo, and any meaning he had meant to convey has been lost to interpretation.
There are several stories and narratives there, and I was responding to the assertions that some of the behavior described was problematic or griefing.
Griefing is not handled by any game mechanics, as per Ryan Dancey. Griefing will be responded to, directly by GW GMs.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Joking aside, the OP was meant to convey one message. There is very little a naked newb can do to negatively impact your game without flagging themselves, and once they flag themselves, they are just a normal player with crappy stats and no gear. Newb rep bombs are all hype and no substance.
Newbs coming in and gearing up / training up a bit then starting a fight with the intent to win is a separate matter. You counter that by recruiting, training, and equipping your own new players.
I'm about as concerned about the naked newbacolypse as I am the reptilian invasion.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Laugh if you must, but I'll be clearing out the twinky isle to stock my super secret/impenetrable bunker while you do so. They'll never take me alive!!! NEVAAAAR!!!!
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Goblin Squad Member
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The class of player character that Andius claims he wishes to protect will largely not exist in PFO, nor be subject to the same forms of predation found in Darkfall.Oh? Are you going to be the one enforcing this? Are you going to drive away that class of players?
I don't need to, I already explained why no one does in the post you snipped the quote from. I admit I'm at times long winded, but you really have to read my whole post and avoid snipping, they often only work in complete context.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The class of player character that Andius claims he wishes to protect will largely not exist in PFO, nor be subject to the same forms of predation found in Darkfall. That has little to do with the alignment or reputation systems, btw. It will have more to do with GW providing circumstances and targets that are more profitable than the solo player being RPKd in the woods.
RPKers have never been it for the profits. They are in it because they PvPer wannabes who feel like big men when they get a good K/D ratio because they pad it with easy kills. The reputation system might make that a harder role to play this game, but nothing is going to break the mentality of "More killz = I winzors!"
Anyway, RPKers are irrelevant to this topic.
I don't need to, I already explained why no one does in the post you snipped the quote from. I admit I'm at times long winded, but you really have to read my whole post and avoid snipping, they often only work in complete context.The class of player character that Andius claims he wishes to protect will largely not exist in PFO, nor be subject to the same forms of predation found in Darkfall.Oh? Are you going to be the one enforcing this? Are you going to drive away that class of players?
I came her to lead. Not to read. (said in an Austrian Accent.)
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Goblin Squad Member
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The class of player character that Andius claims he wishes to protect will largely not exist in PFO, nor be subject to the same forms of predation found in Darkfall. That has little to do with the alignment or reputation systems, btw. It will have more to do with GW providing circumstances and targets that are more profitable than the solo player being RPKd in the woods.RPKers have never been it for the profits. They are in it because they PvPer wannabes who feel like big men when they get a good K/D ratio because they pad it with easy kills. The reputation system might make that a harder role to play this game, but nothing is going to break the mentality of "More killz = I winzors!"
Easy fix for that.... PFO rejects any attempt to support kill tracking / boards. No record of kill : loss ratio, no incentive to pad stats.
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Goblin Squad Member
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You're analyzing specific points when it's the general principle that matters.
Bullys on the playground don't have a mechanic measuring their K/D or win/loss ratio either. That doesn't stop them from preying upon the weak and ignoring anyone who looks like a fair opponent.
It's about the power rush. It's about convincing themselves they aren't insignificant by abusing those who are weaker than them. Thinking themselves lions when they are jackals, and piss themselves at the sight of a real lion.
Again. Completely irrelevant to the topic at hand.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Andius,
Again we get back to, "Let there be no game mechanic to do what the players can do for themselves".
It us impossible to eliminate all instances of the weak being preyed upon by the strong, and that is where your content will come in. I would think you would welcome it.
You will have to use the system in much the same way as I would, to avoid taking two many reputation hits. It can be done, or we should join forces and lobby GW for the ability to do so.
Raider / Bandits will have:
Outposts
Caravans
POIs
Feuds
Wars
Factions
SADs
To PvP against without reputation loss, or at least very minimal loss outside of feuds, wars and faction.
You should be able, with a particular feat (ie. Enforcer) to search for and discover hideouts. Hideouts could function exactly like outposts, making them a consequence free target for you. That is, unless they are in a settlement that has not made raiding illegal.
Now back to the noob question. Noobs could still be used to commit a suicide crime in a settlement in order to commit a crime and then try to get away. Even if they don't get away, and you kill them freely, they have still damaged your settlement's DI to a certain extent. If there are enough if them they can swarm, and you'll never get them all.
Remember, all they have to do is commit a crime. That does not mean they have to be successful at it. A failed outpost raid, still brings with it a hit to your settlements security rating and or your corruption rating.
If they are not flagged hostile, you can't do much to them. They can tie you up, watching them in one spot, and then they strike somewhere else. You kill them for "anchor-griefing" your defense forces, you take the hit and flag yourself for their retribution.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'm not going to dig up the quote right now, but Ryan has said in another post than if you catch the person who committed a crime in your lands it negates the corruption. In-fact I'm pretty sure he said it removes more corruption than was added to begin with.
Committing crimes doesn't cause corruption and demoralization, getting away with them does.
A group looking to sabotage your settlement is much better off sending in skilled players who will have the stealth skills, combat prowess, etc. to sabotage your hex because either way it's tying up their most important resource. Players. The characters may take nothing to create but you still have to have someone controlling them.
Seasoned veterans can use the same tactic of splitting their forces up to keep the defenders running around trying to keep up with them. And they can use it more effectively.
The simple counter to all of this is continually be adding your own fresh blood to your organization. 1000 new characters vs. a 1000 player mix of newbs and veterans will come out with the veterans + noobs on top every time.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Of course, never said otherwise. When numbers are the same, that is when experience and gear will shine.
"Noobs could still be used to commit a suicide crime in a settlement in order to commit a crime and then try to get away. Even if they don't get away, and you kill them freely, they have still damaged your settlement's DI to a certain extent. If there are enough if them they can swarm, and you'll never get them all."
I agree, if you capture and kill them you ward off much of their damage, but I have not read that you wear off all of it.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'll see if Nihimon remembers the quote but it was said. Even if it wasn't said, I don't see how using newbs is any more advantageous than using no gear or crap gear on a vet and doing the same thing. Since you get the flag, there is no reputation loss, and without reputation loss what is the advantage of making fresh character?
I just don't see a solid case that the naked newbacolypse should be a real concern for anyone.
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Goblin Squad Member
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We'll hopefully go into more detail on this (and other tweaks to our ideas on settlement alignment) soon, but the basic idea is that higher Chaos creates a higher minimum Corruption, but having laws broken can temporarily increase Corruption (which is lowered back down by killing the criminal). A Lawful settlement with laws that it can't enforce could become worse off than a Chaotic settlement that played it cool and didn't make any laws in the first place; in the Lawful city, all the crooks know for sure they can get away with anything.
Bolded to highlight relevant bit.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I still have yet to see a compelling case made for the fact you will be able to cause more damage on a newb alt than a vet alt or your main.
Given that solution being presented for the coming newbacolypse is to lower the penalty for killing unflagged newbs, the promoters of such notions need to make a case for how that aspect of the system might be abused. So far everything being presented revolves around actions that would cause you to become flagged, and thus negate the consequences of killing you already.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Stephen Cheney had said to think of ways that noobs could be used to create issues like the naked noob rep bomb.
I believe there is some value in doing just that. No one has suggested reducing any penalties for killing unflagged noobs.
If anything I'm quite perplexed why any if us start with a reputation of 1000. I thought that 0 was fine.
Maybe so etching could be done with level differential?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Stephen Cheney had said to think of ways that noobs could be used to create issues like the naked noob rep bomb.
I'm asking the same thing. So far you haven't put forth anything a "naked newb rep bomb" can do that can be done more effectively by veterans.
You don't lose rep unless you kill them while they are unflagged. They can't force you to kill them short of hacking your account and taking control of your character, so the "rep bomb" is a dud unless they get you to set it off. What you have to establish is something they can do without flagging themselves, that will have a major negative impact on your experience.
I get that for some people that answer is "They're breathing!" but if the game was catered to those people then there wouldn't be a reputation system at all.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Pardon if I'm misunderstanding, but wouldn't that be a pretty obvious thing to simply screen-cap and bring to the attention of the game masters (if they hadn't noticed it themselves)? It can't be an intentional part of the system as I'm reading it and definitely borders highly on exploiting it.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Pardon if I'm misunderstanding, but wouldn't that be a pretty obvious thing to simply screen-cap and bring to the attention of the game masters (if they hadn't noticed it themselves)? It can't be an intentional part of the system as I'm reading it and definitely borders highly on exploiting it.
Well, then we have a problem. If they are free-to-play accounts, banning them does nothing. They'll simply make new accounts, and get right back to it. And if you ban the recipient of the noob shield, then the noob swarm will try to "protect" people they want banned, and have meta-allies attack the cluster.
It's exploitive, but banning cannot fix the problem. It only makes things worse.
Oh, relax Andius. There is no Unsanctioned PvP in PFO. Quit your gripin.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Get over it Qallz, unsanctioned is just a name to describe attacking someone who is not hostile versus attacking someone who is hostile, which is called sanctioned. There is a clear distinction there that can be named(whether the name fits like a glove or not isn't important), if you fail to perceive this you are just fooling yourself or trying to fool others.
Get over it Qallz, unsanctioned is just a name to describe attacking someone who is not hostile versus attacking someone who is hostile, which is called sanctioned. There is a clear distinction there that can be named(whether the name fits like a glove or not isn't important), if you fail to perceive this you are just fooling yourself or trying to fool others.
Not sure thats really relevant to what I was saying Plainsweeds.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Yes the primary use of the NNRB is as an AOE shield. Here is how I envision it eorking:
Intersperse un grouped, naked noobs with low skill high rep into the larger group, even a formation.
Have these noobs in some way, prior to the battle, reduce their hit points to a low enough number that they would likely be one-shot killed or two-shot killed by an AOE Strke. Falling damage is the best way of doing this because it is virtually undetectable.
Now when the AOE spell or siege engine strke hits, these unflagged noobs are killed in one or at most two hits. This may transfer that rep loss onto the attacker in large quantities, depending on how many noobs are I the mix.
This will at be very least make wizards wary of using AOE attacks in PvP.
Scone scenario:
NNRB blue blocking. Andius even you have brought this up before. NN surrounds their friend with their bodies. Again in their self imposed weakens state. Two hits and they are dead. They use collision protection to prevent you from getting within melee range if whatever you are trying to attack.
The point I would make here is that they'll be too weak to matter, even in large numbers. A few crisp AoE's will knock them out faster than it would take out a large group of gobbies.
My point is that because that is so they will affect the targeted settlement's reputation when those AoEs wreak their havoc.
OK, soo the whole reputation system is deeply flawed. I know.
Not at all. Unappreciated, yes.
It's deeply flawed.
you are not the only center of the universe.
You have no way of knowing that. If the rep damage hurts as bad as we think it will, and takes as long to recover as we know it does, then it's flawed on the basis that there's no point to even allowing UNSANCTIONED (yes, we're using that word very intentionally now) PvP (Edit: because only the people who have no intention of playing the game the way that it's intended to be played will be enjoying in any Unsanctioned PvP at all).
If it doesn't hurt as bad as we think, then Andius's worst nightmares come true, and the naked newb armies will be extremely viable and game-destroying.
The core issue is how ridiculous recovering from one unsanctioned kill is. Until that's fixed, they can do whatever they want to the rest of the system and it won't make a lick of difference.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Xeen had crunched some numbers, although I have not verified this yet. According to his calculations it would take 36 days to go from -7500 Rep to 0 Rep.
This does not mean that you can't play that character for 36 days, you just have to not lose any Rep for that 36 days.
-7500 Rep does not trigger any action from GW. It does not mean you are a griefers and at risk of getting banned. So once you hit bottom, there is no reason not to stay there for a while. These characters are not likely going to be members of PC settlements, they will be fringe Alts or will recover their Rep when they want to go stock up on new skills.