Here is...
Reach: You use a reach weapon to strike opponents 10 feet away, but you can't use it against an adjacent foe.
Now, here is...
Attacks of Opportunity
Sometimes a combatant in a melee lets her guard down or takes a reckless action. In this case, combatants near her can take advantage of her lapse in defense to attack her for free. These free attacks are called attacks of opportunity.
So, my question is, with a reach weapon, you can swing at creatures ten feet away from you, but by the rules above, a creature that moves into a space adjacent to you wouldn't give you an AoO because you can't swing at him, or does he? This is in response to the Reach Guide I read a few days ago.
Any clarification on this would be awesome. Thank you in advance
Gotcha. Thank you kindly.
Yes, AoO based off of movement are triggered by leaving a threatened square.
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And, for a reach weapon, one of the best responses, if the opponent triggering the AoO doesn't, themself, have reach, is to do a trip attack.
Since the target doesn't have reach, they won't get an AoO back.
If your trip succeeds, they now need to stand up befor ethey canget next to you. Next turn, since they are out of movement. Move action ended ewhen they were tripped. Standard action used to stand back up. No 5' step, since they moved in this turn. And, if you have Combat Reflexes, you can disarm them or just attack for damage when they stand up, since standing up provokes. Then, next turn, when they try to pick up their weapon, you can trip them again, since picking up an object, even a weapon, provokes.
Then consider the Improved Trip/Greater Trip chain, so they get disarmed on the way down. They wind up prone, disarmed, and probably crying because all they can do is either attack, barehanded (which provokes), cast a spell (defensively), or channel. Or surrender.
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And with the right feats and a reach weapon, you can trip as an AoO and then get another AoO because you just tripped the guy.
Combat Expertise (feat tax)
Improved Trip
Combat Reflexes
and
Greater Trip (requires a +6 attack bonus)
And all of a sudden anyone charging you ends up on their ass and you get to whallop them.
Add enlarge for extra hillarity.
Yes but the attacker in the 10 ft. reach square, if all they do is a 5 ft. step to move from the 10 ft. square to a 5 ft. adjacent square...the attacker will not incur an AoO. As, "You can move 5 feet in any round when you don't perform any other kind of movement. Taking this 5-foot step never provokes an attack of opportunity. You can't take more than one 5-foot step in a round, and you can't take a 5-foot step in the same round that you move any distance."
So if someone is fighting a character with a reach (10 ft.) weapon they can spend their first round to move into the threatened square (within reach) and go on Total Defense (standard action, no AoO). Then on their next turn take a 5 ft. step to close in and do a full attack action with no risk of an AoO from the person with the 10 ft. reach weapon.
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Yes but the attacker in the 10 ft. reach square, if all they do is a 5 ft. step to move from the 10 ft. square to a 5 ft. adjacent square...the attacker will not incur an AoO. As, "You can move 5 feet in any round when you don't perform any other kind of movement. Taking this 5-foot step never provokes an attack of opportunity. You can't take more than one 5-foot step in a round, and you can't take a 5-foot step in the same round that you move any distance."
So if someone is fighting a character with a reach (10 ft.) weapon they can spend their first round to move into the threatened square (within reach) and go on Total Defense (standard action, no AoO). Then on their next turn take a 5 ft. step to close in and do a full attack action with no risk of an AoO from the person with the 10 ft. reach weapon.
Yeah but the reach guy can then attack them, and move away at full speed, forcing a game of keep away as long as there's space to move around in. Alternatively, he can try charging to get to grips, but then risks the AoOs.
You can kite pretty effectively with reach weapons if you don't fall into the 'full attack' trap.
Reach is an advantage, after all.
Yes but the attacker in the 10 ft. reach square, if all they do is a 5 ft. step to move from the 10 ft. square to a 5 ft. adjacent square...the attacker will not incur an AoO. As, "You can move 5 feet in any round when you don't perform any other kind of movement. Taking this 5-foot step never provokes an attack of opportunity. You can't take more than one 5-foot step in a round, and you can't take a 5-foot step in the same round that you move any distance."
So if someone is fighting a character with a reach (10 ft.) weapon they can spend their first round to move into the threatened square (within reach) and go on Total Defense (standard action, no AoO). Then on their next turn take a 5 ft. step to close in and do a full attack action with no risk of an AoO from the person with the 10 ft. reach weapon.
Yeah but the reach guy can then attack them, and move away at full speed, forcing a game of keep away as long as there's space to move around in. Alternatively, he can try charging to get to grips, but then risks the AoOs.
You can kite pretty effectively with reach weapons if you don't fall into the 'full attack' trap.
Reach is an advantage, after all.
Well the reach guy is in a bind though, right? They can't attack their opponent because the opponent has moved adjacent. So their options are:
In order to attack they either:1. Take 5 ft. step back and make up to a full attack, but by taking a 5 ft. step they can no longer move that round so it merely becomes a dance of 5 ft. steps rather than the reach person kiting.
2. Take a move action to move 5 ft back and make an attack, which opens them up to an AoO from the non-reach enemy and still ends their turn there as they've used a move and an standard action.
Or they can not attack and...
3. Take a move action to move more than 10 ft. away at which point they can't make an attack as they're out of range and they get an AoO for moving out of the non-reach enemy's threatened square.
4. Take a withdraw action to move more than 5 ft way. Which is a full round action so no attack.
Once the reach-weapon's opponent has moved in adjacent the only advantage the ranged-weapon person has is to withdraw and force their opponent to repeat the step up to 10 ft - total defense, get an attack, then...
Ahh, here I see the kiting. Opponent moves into 10 ft. reach and goes on total defense. Reach-attacker makes a standard attack and moves back more than 5 ft. or can make a full attack and take a 5 ft. step back (now 10 ft distance between the two of them). Then all the opponent can do is take a 5 ft. step into threatened area and go on total defense again (at which ranged attacker with rinse and repeat) or move 10 ft. in, be on the receiving end of an AoO, and get to attack...at which point the reach attacker has to decide whether to withdraw in order to set up the scenario again or just 5 ft. step back, attack, and start the dance.
Gotcha, Spook205, gotcha. :)
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Ahh, here I see the kiting. Opponent moves into 10 ft. reach and goes on total defense. Reach-attacker makes a standard attack and moves back more than 5 ft. or can make a full attack and take a 5 ft. step back (now 10 ft distance between the two of them). Then all the opponent can do is take a 5 ft. step into threatened area and go on total defense again (at which ranged attacker with rinse and repeat) or move 10 ft. in, be on the receiving end of an AoO, and get to attack...at which point the reach attacker has to decide whether to withdraw in order to set up the scenario again or just 5 ft. step back, attack, and start the dance.Right! The pole-arm guy has the advantage up until the normal melee attacker takes the gamble to risk the trips, AoOs and whatever, to get adjacent. Then all the reach weapon guy can do is withdraw and hope.
Its the gamble thats the big deal. CMB vs CMD isn't perfect (especially when you realize who's doing the charging most of the time is another full bab class).
The pole-arm guy gambles on beating that CMD and getting a second attack off the trip, but if he trips successfully, he also earns a full attack on his next turn unless his opponent uses a move action to get up, and another move action to move in five feet to right in the guy's face.
Pole-arm fighters built around the AoO progression are 'I sacrifice effectiveness on my turn, to hurt you on yours when you try to hurt me.'
But a rogue who can slip in and sneak attack and rob their AoOs, or an archer, or a mage, can just laugh that all off.
I'd figure I'd just make a reach cleric. If they stop at the edge of my ten feet, that's one more turn my friends and I have to cast spells, poke them down with ranged weapons, etc. If they give me AoOs, then I just plow through them, resulting in less monsters to kill, less damage taken, and now we have the advantage.
Ahh, here I see the kiting. Opponent moves into 10 ft. reach and goes on total defense. Reach-attacker makes a standard attack and moves back more than 5 ft. or can make a full attack and take a 5 ft. step back (now 10 ft distance between the two of them). Then all the opponent can do is take a 5 ft. step into threatened area and go on total defense again (at which ranged attacker with rinse and repeat) or move 10 ft. in, be on the receiving end of an AoO, and get to attack...at which point the reach attacker has to decide whether to withdraw in order to set up the scenario again or just 5 ft. step back, attack, and start the dance.Right! The pole-arm guy has the advantage up until the normal melee attacker takes the gamble to risk the trips, AoOs and whatever, to get adjacent. Then all the reach weapon guy can do is withdraw and hope.
Its the gamble thats the big deal. CMB vs CMD isn't perfect (especially when you realize who's doing the charging most of the time is another full bab class).
The pole-arm guy gambles on beating that CMD and getting a second attack off the trip, but if he trips successfully, he also earns a full attack on his next turn unless his opponent uses a move action to get up, and another move action to move in five feet to right in the guy's face.
Pole-arm fighters built around the AoO progression are 'I sacrifice effectiveness on my turn, to hurt you on yours when you try to hurt me.'
But a rogue who can slip in and sneak attack and rob their AoOs, or an archer, or a mage, can just laugh that all off.
Except your forgeting one thing. The none reach attacker doesn't have to take a 5' after getting up to just get in his face. He can get up as a move action, take a 5' step to close in and also attack. You can take a 5' step when you have not performed no other movement, this isn't the same as performing a move action.
Yes, AoO based off of movement are triggered by leaving a threatened square.
I'd rephrase that as "AoOs based off movement are triggered by ATTEMPTING to leave a threatened square". Because the AoO takes place in the square they are leaving, they might not actually get to leave if you trip them or kill them or have stand still or ...
Reach clerics can also be fun for stuff like hiding behind the tank, attacking over him (reaching through his square), and healing him as he needs it.
Two PCs whacking on one guy.
Works great in bottlenecks.
It's alright, but it gives softcover so it's not really that ideal.
It's alright, but it gives softcover so it's not really that ideal.Reach clerics can also be fun for stuff like hiding behind the tank, attacking over him (reaching through his square), and healing him as he needs it.
Two PCs whacking on one guy.
Works great in bottlenecks.
It's better for the reach character to be using Armor Spikes or a Cestus. Or for the rest of the party to give him room to maneuver.
Fighting in a bottle neck is not an ideal battlefield.
Except your forgeting one thing. The none reach attacker doesn't have to take a 5' after getting up to just get in his face. He can get up as a move action, take a 5' step to close in and also attack. You can take a 5' step when you have not performed no other movement, this isn't the same as performing a move action.
On their next turn, yes. Not on the turn they are tripped (move in - provokes, be tripped, stand - provokes, cannot 5' step). If charging, that's a full-round action interrupted, so can't even stand.
If the tripper can take a 5' step back between turns, that will force a new AoO.
FYI - Easy rule on reach AoO's - If someone is moving from 15' away, to 5' away, and it's not a 5' step (on the corners), they provoke an AoO (at/leaving 10' away).
Except your forgeting one thing. The none reach attacker doesn't have to take a 5' after getting up to just get in his face. He can get up as a move action, take a 5' step to close in and also attack. You can take a 5' step when you have not performed no other movement, this isn't the same as performing a move action.On their next turn, yes. Not on the turn they are tripped (move in - provokes, be tripped, stand - provokes, cannot 5' step). If charging, that's a full-round action interrupted, so can't even stand.
If the tripper can take a 5' step back between turns, that will force a new AoO.
FYI - Easy rule on reach AoO's - If someone is moving from 15' away, to 5' away, and it's not a 5' step (on the corners), they provoke an AoO (at/leaving 10' away).
Gotta love Enlarge, hahaha.
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It's alright, but it gives softcover so it's not really that ideal.Reach clerics can also be fun for stuff like hiding behind the tank, attacking over him (reaching through his square), and healing him as he needs it.
Two PCs whacking on one guy.
Works great in bottlenecks.
It's better for the reach character to be using Armor Spikes or a Cestus. Or for the rest of the party to give him room to maneuver.
Fighting in a bottle neck is not an ideal battlefield.
Depends on composition. If you can make it so the enemy can only bring one attack against you and you can bring 2-3 against him, its damn ideal. If you just manage a 1-1 fight, yeah its only good as a delaying tactic.
Its why its a standard siege tactic.
Keep in mind, I look at this from the NPC side, not the PC side. So I tend to view from the perspective of a lot of people backing me up, and combined arms. Not four guys of four differing but complimentary talents.
EDIT: And for the record, I used a greater tripping (enlarged) raging barbarian against the scout-type rogue in one of my games. It worked well enough that the player (and his character) now hate all barbarians who use reach weapons except (occasionally) the party's own reach weapon using barbarian.
It's alright, but it gives softcover so it's not really that ideal.Reach clerics can also be fun for stuff like hiding behind the tank, attacking over him (reaching through his square), and healing him as he needs it.
Two PCs whacking on one guy.
Works great in bottlenecks.
It's better for the reach character to be using Armor Spikes or a Cestus. Or for the rest of the party to give him room to maneuver.
Fighting in a bottle neck is not an ideal battlefield.
Depends on composition. If you can make it so the enemy can only bring one attack against you and you can bring 2-3 against him, its damn ideal. If you just manage a 1-1 fight, yeah its only good as a delaying tactic.
Its why its a standard siege tactic.
Keep in mind, I look at this from the NPC side, not the PC side. So I tend to view from the perspective of a lot of people backing me up, and combined arms. Not four guys of four differing but complimentary talents.
EDIT: And for the record, I used a greater tripping (enlarged) raging barbarian against the scout-type rogue in one of my games. It worked well enough that the player (and his character) now hate all barbarians who use reach weapons except (occasionally) the party's own reach weapon using barbarian.
Totally agree there and it's a tactic I encourage but not really what's being espoused here.
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It's alright, but it gives softcover so it's not really that ideal.Reach clerics can also be fun for stuff like hiding behind the tank, attacking over him (reaching through his square), and healing him as he needs it.
Two PCs whacking on one guy.
Works great in bottlenecks.
If there is a large disparity in height this can work well. Adjacent cover less than half-height does not provide soft cover. An enlarged longspear wielder can get AoOs over the head of an adjacent dwarf at targets 15' or 20' away.