CEO, Goblinworks
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Do you believe that if basic /emotes were included, they would not be widely used by the general player base?
I think most of the time they'd be used they would not be used for "roleplaying" in the sense that I believe you mean. They'd be used more like decoration for OOC discussions like /facepalm or /smdh. I think the number of players who would use them IC other than extremely occasionally would be very small.
Wouldn't it be reasonable to believe that such emotes would be used to advance the pillars of the game you have already mentioned?
No, I don't really think so. I don't see how "/bow" or "/huzzah" or "/weeps" materially improves the roleplaying experience compared to the actual "playing of a role" experience the game will offer.
That said, I am virtually certain that we'll have some generic text-only emote system in the game because that's easy and harmless (mostly) and some people will like it and use it so it's a good tradeoff of resources.
I'm virtually certain we'll have some basic animated emotes because they're fun, mostly harmless, and lots of players use them in lots of entertaining ways.
If Emote Packs were included in the cash shop, would this not add sufficient incentive for their development cost?
I think we will absolutely sell emotes with animation and other effects in the cash shop. The response to the "secret salute" offer in the Kickstarter was plenty of evidence that people like that idea.
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Goblin Squad Member
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As Ryan indicated, roads would be an excellent example of characters permanently affecting the world. I don't think that there will be the hard surface "Roman" roads posters have implied. This is the Crusader Road, after all. That which can be build by man can be destroyed by man. Good content.
What about dams? I assume that there will be water, streams, ponds, etc. Could we build a small dam to power a mill? Could we destroy a dam to flood a settlement?
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'm virtually certain we'll have some basic animated emotes because they're fun, mostly harmless, and lots of players use them in lots of entertaining ways.
Is there even the tiniest possibility that this could be the first game in who-knows-how-long with any dancing...unless it's related somehow to taverns? Yes, I've been told art-folk like programming them, but they're used by so very many players in places that make little sense that it almost seems--at times--like visual griefing.
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CEO, Goblinworks
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We're way, way off topic here, but I will say that I've always thought that /emotes should require context. You kill a really tough monster, you should unlock an emote you can use to show the character's feelings. You find yourself in a place where dancing is appropriate, that unlocks dancing emotes, etc.
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Goblin Squad Member
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An idea for the exploration aspect of the game: Explorer Cartography.
Ryan has said previously :
I would really like there to be a huge system for map manipulation. So rather than selling a map to another person, you'd sell them information that you've gathered and it would appear on their map. Your character's map would be a way of keeping a whole lot of information organized.
I thought that sounded really cool when I first saw it, and it generally fits the checklist. Some suggested parameters:
- When you explore an area thoroughly, it appears on your map. There might be value in a mechanic that requires a certain amount of time/movement in an area to get it on your map, as an abstraction of surveying and really getting to know it. I would want to avoid someone just barreling through an area at top speed and "check the box" mapping.
- Surveying could be a trainable skill that helps you get an area mapped more quickly.
- You could sell your geographical knowledge, provided you had access to a skill like cartography (or some other comparable, perhaps multi-use skill). So either you have cartography, or you hire someone to help in making the map for your client. That's a way to make a more social, interactive process.
- This would give some interesting pricing dynamics--pioneering explorers could charge a high premium for their knowledge, but if more explorers get to an area, then there could be pricing competetion.
- It might not be realistic, I think this would be a rewarding system if only people who had actually been to the area and surveyed to could sell map information--you shouldn't be able to hire an explorer and get mapped up, and then flip the map.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I am a big fan of player made roads. I think we even had them in the design document. We would need to come up with a system so that players didn't "pave the earth". I don't know to what extent player made roads would qualify as increasing roleplaying support though.
[I think the idea we had bandied about, although I don't think I ever actually wrote it into the design doc (because I can't find it) is that we would be continuously generating heatmaps of where people walked, and that led to system so that if enough "walking" was done in a given vector it could evolve into a dirt track, and dirt tracks could be upgraded by players to improve transit speeds. This was associated with ideas about where/how bridges could be built using similar mechanics. No idea if this will ever gestate.]
Superb idea.
Heatmaps could be exceedingly useful for several types of autogeneration, including where to spawn new escalations (where few ever go).
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Goblin Squad Member
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My basic idea for the inappropriate dancing bit is that it mirrors reputation-negative PvP: sometimes your character should dance in silly and inappropriate places, such as dancing after killing a really though PvE boss, or gathering with friends for an impromptu dance party in the town square (it's lots of fun when a whole bunch of people join in and you can mingle and forget about chasing after the mechanical benefits for a little while). Though I definitely understand a desire for context-appropriate emote unlocks, because I have seen the other side of the argument as well.
Personally I don't see how roads = support for roleplaying, but maybe I'm still looking at roleplaying in a different light.
Some type of tracking system I could see as greatly helping bounty hunters or other manhunters to "get in role". The feeling of chasing their prey to deliver justice/ attack from ambush, the little excitement when their tracking system (whatever type of system it uses) tells them they're drawing near, etc.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think most of the time they'd be used they would not be used for "roleplaying" in the sense that I believe you mean. They'd be used more like decoration for OOC discussions like /facepalm or /smdh. I think the number of players who would use them IC other than extremely occasionally would be very small.
I'd be more interested in the style where:
/em washes the road dust from his parched throat with a most welcome stein of ale.
becomes:
Being washes the road dust from his parched throat with a most welcome stein of ale.
Especially if it might be supplemented with targeted variables like:
/em salutes %t as his captain.
where %t asserts whatever I have targeted.
But truth told, this system is a legacy of old tech, and I honestly do not know if there is now some better way to achieve the same adaptable end.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Personally I don't see how roads = support for roleplaying, but maybe I'm still looking at roleplaying in a different light.
Roads and such (settlement building?)give a long-duration project to a community, and everyone will benefit from it. It is a catalyst for RP that can pull a community together and bond them.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Shane, I'm think about this as "playing a role" vs. "playing a character." In TT, when I developed specific tics and habits of speech, developed and played out preferences and fears for my character, etc. I was "playing my character." Whereas working out how my paladin would react to a sleeping enemy, trying to spread the faith of my god, etc. was "playing my role."
I think the way Ryan is presenting this is to look beyond customizing your character with decorations (/tugsbeard, /looksfire), to look at how you could bring your role to life and meaning socially in the world. Whatever (class) role you are, you might also love the role of an explorer--a system that let you share your hard earned experience exploring the wilds…or not sharing it…would really be about playing your role.
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Goblin Squad Member
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That's the kind of thing I was trying to communicate with my last blurb about tracking. I think I'm starting to understand what you mean. You'd rather have people playing a grumpy dwarven priest who does priestly things than a grumpy dwarven priest who just stands around and talks about doing priestly things. Is that more or less what you mean?
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Goblin Squad Member
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I would like to see a large amount of crafted items that support both functional weapons/armor and cosmetic/social weapons/armor.
So say a person is a crafter and he wants to make a longsword base weapon.
The first thing he does is choose a longsword blade pattern out of say 50. Then he chooses a longsword hilt design, then a pommel. Depending on which one he picks it might require additional items to craft. So a jewel encrusted hilt would require say 5 gems. However you get to pick what gem. Do you make a piece that shows off your wealth and make the hilt with diamonds or do you make a cheap one with glass?
Then you decide what materials to make things from. Perhaps your sword is steel or mithril for function. Maybe you create a gold blade, basically worthless in battle but expensive to make and weighs a ton so that its a show piece.
So players have much more choice in what their gear looks like if they are made modular. The crafter would have more options the higher their crafting skill. So a novice crafter wont be able to work mithril or make a very good jewel encrusted sword. Also their patterns would be restricted to show that they are not skilled enough to make the fancy designs.
Not only that but i would love to see gear that was crafted that was social in nature. They should be able to make a wealth of clothes that people can wear. if nothing else so they can just show off.
The other system i wouid LOVE to see is heraldry. This would have several purposes. The first would be that it promotes pride in a group. The second is that It could be used in large scale battles to ID forces and to help maintain unit cohesion. the way i see it is that in general heraldry should be at the Company, alliance, settlement, and kingdom level.
So my company could have a heraldry. If my company belongs to an alliance then the alliance can use a separate heraldry in case that alliance goes to war, or in the case of merchants they can put it where their section of the market is. settlements and kingdoms have their own.
you would need permission to fly heraldry. So not just anyone can put up your flag, the alliance, settlement, or kingdom flags.
Not only that but you could designate crafters to create surcoats/shields with heraldry.
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Goblin Squad Member
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That's the kind of thing I was trying to communicate with my last blurb about tracking. I think I'm starting to understand what you mean. You'd rather have people playing a grumpy dwarven priest who does priestly things than a grumpy dwarven priest who just stands around and talks about doing priestly things. Is that more or less what you mean?
Pretty much, Shane. It's not that developing your character as grumpy is wrong, but rather the trade-off of development resources isn't efficient. If you really want to character dramatize, very basic stuff like chat emotes suffice, and as Ryan pointed out are easy, harmless, and desired. But something like a functioning cartography system is costly in resources, but has a pretty substantive pay-off in terms of playing your role as an explorer.
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Goblin Squad Member
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...It could be used in large scale battles to ID forces and to help maintain unit cohesion.
Someone in an earlier thread proposed that a somewhat-simple way to hurt (actually, in that example, it was to grief) those who rely on heraldry would be to create a display that appears *almost* like that of their enemy (assuming PFO makes it impossible exactly to duplicate another). Is there a way to avoid or defuse that situation?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Do you believe that if basic /emotes were included, they would not be widely used by the general player base?I think most of the time they'd be used they would not be used for "roleplaying" in the sense that I believe you mean. They'd be used more like decoration for OOC discussions like /facepalm or /smdh. I think the number of players who would use them IC other than extremely occasionally would be very small.
Wouldn't it be reasonable to believe that such emotes would be used to advance the pillars of the game you have already mentioned?No, I don't really think so. I don't see how "/bow" or "/huzzah" or "/weeps" materially improves the roleplaying experience compared to the actual "playing of a role" experience the game will offer.
That said, I am virtually certain that we'll have some generic text-only emote system in the game because that's easy and harmless (mostly) and some people will like it and use it so it's a good tradeoff of resources.
I'm virtually certain we'll have some basic animated emotes because they're fun, mostly harmless, and lots of players use them in lots of entertaining ways.
If Emote Packs were included in the cash shop, would this not add sufficient incentive for their development cost?I think we will absolutely sell emotes with animation and other effects in the cash shop. The response to the "secret salute" offer in the Kickstarter was plenty of evidence that people like that idea.
Thank you Ryan for answering these questions. Call me nuts but, isn't this eerily close to what I was asking for in the other thread?
I think we got to hung up on sitting in chairs, specifically, as opposed to more broadly discussing animated emotes.
I can handle using a /sit command while standing on a chair, to simulate sitting. Sure there may be some cropping issues, but graphic glitches can sometimes be a huge source of entertainment.
I was in a guild in SWTOR where one of our members (female) had an affinity for Jawas. When my Sith Marauder had the opportunity to slaughter a small encampment of Jawas, the graphics of their corpses made it look like they were buried up to their necks, or missing their legs. The screen shot was priceless due to her reaction!
Would've been funnier if it were ewoks, but post it. lol
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Goblin Squad Member
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Yeah, maybe I shoulda thrown in less descriptive fluff to make the example more clear, like so: "You'd rather have people playing a priest who does priestly things than a priest who just stands around and talks about doing priestly things." Meaning, you want people to play the roles by actually playing their roles, instead of doing the traditional MMO RPing. In that context, I understand what this thread's about, and I look forward to other things people can come up with (bards I think should get some special attention, and some extra RP-support lovin').
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Goblin Squad Member
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Both the LotRO music system and the SWG entertainers performance system are examples of interactive ways to play your role. I wonder how development resource intensive something that let you freestyle, upload, or macro performing arts would be--how costly is the trade-off?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Both the LotRO music system and the SWG entertainers performance system are examples of interactive ways to play your role. I wonder how development resource intensive something that let you freestyle, upload, or macro performing arts would be--how costly is the trade-off?
I think that if we have something that is a known benefit, to dwell on what cost the potential trade off might be, my have a chilling effect leading to not being exceptional in anyway.
Ask this question instead: How development resource intensive is it, with today's technology and training, to recreate something that was innovative 10+ years ago?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Those sound good. They sound "Bardy".
A strong socializer/RP role in settlements (earn a wage as a performer, musicians etc). That's got to ramp up some sort of index?
It depends. While a street musician busking with a hat out may be quite talented, some cites see them as nothing more than panhandlers.
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Goblin Squad Member
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... with a tiny fraction of the budget they used.
Ask this question instead: How development resource intensive is it, with today's technology and training, to recreate something that was innovative 10+ years ago?
I agree, although I would say "tiny" but certainly it will be a fraction.
That is why I say not to dwell too much on trade offs. If you know something was done well, ten years ago, just put it in if it fits. We don't need to know if that pushes back the release date a day, week of even a month. No promise has been
made as to release date, and it never will be, this far out.
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Goblin Squad Member
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TOTALLY DIFFERENT TRAIN OF THOUGHT TIME
Allegiances.
Mutual opt-in game mechanic state between companies or settlements that basically goes, "if someone declares feud/war on you, we're automatically in feud/war with them too".
This is a thing that GW can do to help groups of players really roleplay out whether or not they want to be tied that closely to other groups. Safety in numbers vs. the exposure to danger. The fallout of a snubbed allegiance offer. The discussions of whether we can go to war with X when they're allied with Y- can we split them up or make Z hate Y, ally with Z, and then go to war?
You can Game of Thrones out all the possibilities.
TL;DR
Yes, this mechanic has been around since at least 1916 but it seems to satisfy Ryan's guidelines and broadens the palette of options for lasting and meaningful interaction with minimal dev resources (as far as I know).
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Goblin Squad Member
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So what would a road system look like in terms of parameters? I think it's a great idea that would add immensely to the development aspect of the game. I get Ryan's concern about "paving the earth" (I immediately think of lines upon lines of houses in UO cutting across the map). Two possibilities might be:
- Heatmapping where folks walk--you can only build only actual paths of use
- Point to point roadbuilding, e.g. you can only build a road between settlements/POIs. No matter how much roadwork you do, you can't pave over more than the web of connections.
I would guess the 2d option is less costly in terms of system resources--all the thinking about where roads can be is offloaded to human beans. I also like the idea that you can do civil engineering and planning, and create pathways that people will want to use, rather than waiting for prior use to create the upgraded road. You could help steer your community's development that way.
I would really like to see an RP avenue that is non-combat oriented, more geared to Commoner, Aristocratic, and Expert Skills.Maybe something like:
- The ability to build roads would require a minimum DI score in Civilization.
- Road-building would require materiel support (Commoners gathering), Aristocratic urban planning, and Expert construction supervision (with minimum skills training in both). And just like other building tasks, enough money in the settlement bank to build.
- The value of the road would be that it provides a speed bonus for foot, mounted, and caravan travel. So maybe you have an agriculture POI and you want to move foodstuffs back quickly to your settlement--building a road halves the time from just crossing undeveloped hexlands.
- I think it would be also interesting if roads provided both relative security and threat. In monster hexes, maybe roads make a safe path (a la "stay on the path" prohibition stories), but because people tend to follow roads, they present ambush possibilities.
- This opens up lots of second order social interaction: ambushes, highway patrols, toll boths, etc.
- Roads might require some kind of DI/monetary tax over time for upkeep.
Mutual opt-in game mechanic state between companies or settlements that basically goes, "if someone declares feud/war on you, we're automatically in feud/war with them too".
LOVE IT. Thanks for reminding me why I keep you around Mrs. Sin.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Allow roads to be built anywhere, but make the cost of building a road meaningful.
- Make it require a lot of resources: You need to quarry the stones for the foundation, gravel and limestone power for the base layer, paving stones for the top layer, the labor for hauling the materials, and so on.
- Since you are paving a road through wilderness, your workers will need protection from PvE and PVP threats.
- The process of building the road can be interrupted, like other crafting and harvesting.
- building a road is a major public works undertaking, and if you don't have the materials and workforce needed, the attempt will fail
Taken together, this lets you build roads wherever you want, but the scale of doing it makes it only likely to happen on major trade routes between established settlements where the expense is worth the effort, thus stopping the "Pave the world" scenario.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Toll booths are contrary to the River Laws.
I love the idea of something big to do for the ACEs (Aristocrats, Commoners, Experts) and settlements having proactive options to plan their development in a certain direction (literally). There needs to be a rational limit to the total length of road per hex of course and I wouldn't want to see them use DI, but attaining minimum levels of related DI before the road can be built makes sense.
I'm not sure (barring building competing roads to rich resources or something) how that adds to roleplay though. "Forsooth! Foul stone I shall carve thee to my will. In the name of my forefathers and the honor of my chisel. Aiiiiieeeeeeeeee!!!!!!" *Road paving intensifies*
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Goblin Squad Member
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..."if someone declares feud/war on you, we're automatically in feud/war with them too".
Make sure those allegiances are extremely public; you want them scaring off at least some potential aggressors. I don't know how many of us play Paradox games, but in Europa Universalis, for example, your alliances are often at least as valuable to you in peace as they are in war.
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Goblin Squad Member
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..."paving the earth" (I immediately think of lines upon lines of houses in UO cutting across the map).
...or the Civilization series before Civ5, which finally made roads cost maintenance. All my games used to end up with everything railroaded.
I know it was intended by design; the AI was what taught me the trick :-).
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'm not sure (barring building competing roads to rich resources or something) how that adds to roleplay though. "Forsooth! Foul stone I shall carve thee to my will. In the name of my forefathers and the honor of my chisel. Aiiiiieeeeeeeeee!!!!!!" *Road paving intensifies*
Proxima, I agree with Ryan--RP as chat/animation emotes is an incredibly impoverished conception of roleplaying. Roleplyaing a developer isn't a bunch of chat emotes, *thinks intently about urban planning*. It's actually organizing people people in your community, and putting your skills to use to build a cathedral to Iomedae. It's going out and interacting with other players and getting a highway built to your city, so goods and traffic can ply between your home and the rest of the world.
Roleplaying an explorer. Would you rather sit in a tavern and "roleplay": *the gaunt man in the corner looks gaunt, as if he had been exploring* or or actually brave the wilds and explore places no one else had found, and bring back that knowledge to map the world (or maybe keep your secrets hidden)?
I'll take the latter everyday.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Mbando I imagine sitting at a computer what I would do to roleplay the road thing. Train some skills at the building in town. Walk out the gates. Click the spot where the road is going to go, select Build. From there the road develops over time the way building architecture was described?
There can be urban planning stuff like should we build a road now or later, can we afford it?, organizing settlement mining trips to stockpile materials, etc. That's equally true of every training building, blacksmith, merchant shop, wall, defensive siege emplacement and the like across the entirety of the settlement. It's a great chance for ACEs to be involved in the world and I see the mechanical benefits and I like the general road building plan. But as I said I don't see where roads are elevated in rp value or have a lasting affect on rp after completion over other established settlement business.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Proxima, I think we have have very different conceptions of roleplaying. I want to roleplay a crusader--that is, I want to actually conduct crusades, and develop my character as such. I actually have a role in the social and material world, and play it.
Going "Forsooth! Foul evildoers I shall smite thee to my will. In the name of my forefathers and the honor of my sword. Aiiiiieeeeeeeeee!!!!!!" *Crusading intensifies* doesn't do much to meaningfully advance RP.
Going "Forsooth! Foul evildoers I shall smite thee to my will. In the name of my forefathers and the honor of my sword. Aiiiiieeeeeeeeee!!!!!!" *Crusading intensifies* doesn't do much to meaningfully advance RP.
But it's hard to implement something that will make you feel like a Crusader, so and so feel like a Dark Necromancer, make someone feel like a thief. It's like all of these have to be implemented separately, which is a nightmare. That's why I said it should be mostly up to the player to use imagination-land.
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Goblin Squad Member
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*Posting intensifies*
I understand the public works battle cry is ridiculous and thin on rp value. I used it facetiously to illustrate we're talking about building a road. It holds value to the game just not roleplay value for people to stand around the road, um, talking about it?
. They consist of you going out into the game world that's already been established by developers and using your imagination muscles to explore or crusade.
And that's where 80% of roleplay happens; suspending disbelief and using our imagination to star in our own movie. The RP Support in the title of this thread is just that: the other 20% which supports the 80% that players bring on their own.
A place that GW designs which holds untapped value for you or that Evil settlement in the other hex, whoever can unravel the mystery in it first or wrest it from their control before they use its powers to enact their dastardly plan. Providing those places is what GW can do to support your exploring crusading rp because that's what places with raveled mysteries do. The road we built is supporting the businesses in town to be more profitable, that's what roads do.
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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Going "Forsooth! Foul evildoers I shall smite thee to my will. In the name of my forefathers and the honor of my sword. Aiiiiieeeeeeeeee!!!!!!" *Crusading intensifies* doesn't do much to meaningfully advance RP.But it's hard to implement something that will make you feel like a Crusader, so and so feel like a Dark Necromancer, make someone feel like a thief. It's like all of these have to be implemented separately, which is a nightmare. That's why I said it should be mostly up to the player to use imagination-land.
The easy stuff is probably going to get done regardless of the benefit. Text-only emotes and a generic system of /em "does something" is almost certainly going to happen. It's the things that are expensive that will require the cost/benefit review.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think the roleplaying in roadbuilding comes from offering roads as a large selection of things to build. It should be like everything else: a definite opportunity cost goes into laying a road, and if you have that road someone else could pass you up in another area. The roleplaying in this case is for the city planners and the settlement leaders, who have to decide how to spend limited resources, limited space, and limited time; they have to weigh choices, make decisions based on what the military, merchants, and common people are saying, possibly juggle settlement politics into the mix. Should definitely give the feeling of responsibility that goes with such a management role IRL.
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Why do I feel like we're sitting in chairs again?
I'm actually laying in bed, writing from my laptop, which reminds me...
Will we be able to lay in beds???
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Goblin Squad Member
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It's true in TT and it's true in MMOs, role playing means different things to different people. To some it's play-acting and theatrics, and to others it's hack and slash or tactical planing. You can use elements of both to make a story, within the framework of the game.
From a rules and design perspective in both TT and MMOs, the combat and world-building are more important than the theatrics, and require the most work to make. In TT this is just rules, but in a MMO it also involves art assets and animation.
That means that the core game systems need to be in place before the theatrical fluff is added, even though there is a legitimate playstyle that uses it.
You can be theatrical with just a chat system. Once the other systems are in place, then using the cash shop to give the option for more emotes is a very good idea.
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Goblin Squad Member
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And that's where 80% of roleplay happens; suspending disbelief and using our imagination to star in our own movie. The RP Support in the title of this thread is just that: the other 20% which supports the 80% that players bring on their own.
I respectfully argue that you're wrong, and that you are repeating an impoverished concept of RP that comes from games where all you can do is grind.
100% of RP should happen in the game world as we play out our roles. A developer--someone who wants to build things, improve things, and change the world in permanent ways to make it more organized and effective--can play their role amazingly by organizing and implementing something amazing like a system of roads that helps turn a settlement into a kingdom. That's roleplaying.
In WoW/EQ/GW/RIFT/DAoC/etc., all you can do is grind: kill X mobs, gather X stuff, make X [items] of tier [Y], take X keeps (and of course lose and retake them in a static world). Because all you can do is grind, you are forced by the game design to resort to make believe to role-play. SWG is the only MMO I can think of that actually allowed for people to role-play. Everything else has trained us, because they are so impoverished, to settle for make-believe.
What we're being offered here is a chance to drop make-believe, and make 100% of role-play real gameplay.
I 100% reject your argument that RP should be make believe. I'm going to actually RP in the game world--it's what I'm supporting PFO.
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Goblin Squad Member
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100% of RP should happen in the game world as we play out our roles.
With respect, I think you're ignoring some of the "roles" that players might intend to play that really don't have any interaction with the game world, but instead are entirely about interacting with other players. I call it "Performance RP", but I think it's at the heart of what a lot of people just call "RP". There aren't really meaningful systems that can be built to support it, it's all about theatricality.