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I have a character who is probably going to be smashing people in the face with a lot of random improvised weapons - how much damage are these going to deal?
The closest thing I've seen is a few specific examples of items stating that "If used as a weapon, this specific item deals damage as if ______" usually referring to "a gauntlet of its size."
Is there an official chart of how much damage an improvised weapon deals?
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There is no official chart. Given the examples I'd say you're probably best going with whatever one dice step lower from a similar weapon would deal.
The most a two-handed weapon deals is 2d6, so an improvised weapon should be no more than 1d8.
One-handed weapons tend to deal no more than 1d8, so an improvised weapon would likely be 1d6.
And light weapons tend to max out at 1d6, so an improvised light weapon might deal 1d4.
Obviously there are a few corner cases that deal more, and plenty that deal less, but I think those would be good suggestions.
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Sometimes objects not crafted to be weapons nonetheless see use in combat. Because such objects are not designed for this use, any creature that uses an improvised weapon in combat is considered to be nonproficient with it and takes a –4 penalty on attack rolls made with that object. To determine the size category and appropriate damage for an improvised weapon, compare its relative size and damage potential to the weapon list to find a reasonable match. An improvised weapon scores a threat on a natural roll of 20 and deals double damage on a critical hit. An improvised thrown weapon has a range increment of 10 feet.
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There are a few Improvised Weapon specialists in our area, and I've seen a couple come and go. They're fun at low levels, but hard to be viable when they reach the 7-11 games. AFAIK, you can't enchant an improvised weapon. I spoke with someone who wanted to take levels in Magus just to make his (anchor?) magical, but I'm not sure even that would work.
As long as your Improvised Weapon isn't causing more damage than a real one, you should be fine. Just discuss it with your GM prior to a game. Show him what you've been doing, and what other GMs have proposed. Be prepared for some table variation, but it shouldn't be that bad.
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Nobody lays a finger on my +1 vorpal frying pan.
Oh, I remember seeing the break down for this once. Can't remember where it is exactly in the rule books though. So for the 'reasonable match' weapon thing, it is compared to these three weapons: light hammer, a club, and a quaterstaff.
So pick the weapon that the item is closest in size to, and use those stats (try not to get too much into details like how you are smashing people to death with a jagged piece of glass; changing type is more a GM decision, and PFS would frown upon that; just use bludgeoning). There are further rules about the size of light, one handed and large, but same problem for sources as above (I know it came up with discussion about tiefling tails though).
Anyway, here is the breakdown: light weapons are two sizes smaller than you (so tiny usually), a one handed weapon is one size smaller than you (small usually), and a two handed weapon is the same category as you (so medium usually). Obviously, the listed sizes move up and down with the character's size.
Nobody lays a finger on my +1 vorpal frying pan."A vorpal weapon must be a slashing melee weapon."
Your frying pan is a slashing weapon?
It is when I roll a 20. : D
Oh, I remember seeing the break down for this once. Can't remember where it is exactly in the rule books though. So for the 'reasonable match' weapon thing, it is compared to these three weapons: light hammer, a club, and a quaterstaff.
So pick the weapon that the item is closest in size to, and use those stats (try not to get too much into details like how you are smashing people to death with a jagged piece of glass; changing type is more a GM decision, and PFS would frown upon that; just use bludgeoning). There are further rules about the size of light, one handed and large, but same problem for sources as above (I know it came up with discussion about tiefling tails though).
Anyway, here is the breakdown: light weapons are two sizes smaller than you (so tiny usually), a one handed weapon is one size smaller than you (small usually), and a two handed weapon is the same category as you (so medium usually). Obviously, the listed sizes move up and down with the character's size.
The equivalency rules you mention are for a monk of the empty hand using weapons as improvised weapons. They are specifically for that archetype, and the GM need not follow such rules for other characters or for such a monk using non-weapons as improvised weapons.
One of out most recent improvised weapon situations that came up was one of our party members picking up a dead goblin and using it to beat another goblin unconscious. We treated it as a Large sap, applying both size and improvised weapon penalties.
Another was when I misfired while out of grit and decided to throw my broken pistol at the opponent; we treated it as an improvised club. (Hey, with Deadly Aim it was still 1d4+5 damage.)
The equivalency rules you mention are for a monk of the empty hand using weapons as improvised weapons. They are specifically for that archetype, and the GM need not follow such rules for other characters or for such a monk using non-weapons as improvised weapons.
Are you sure that it is not simply restating the rules for improvised weapons?
For very indirect, circumstantial (but still somewhat relevant) evidence, I want to bring in the improvised weapon mastery feat:
Benefit: You do not suffer any penalties for using an improvised weapon. Increase the amount of damage dealt by the improvised weapon by one step (for example, 1d4 becomes 1d6) to a maximum of 1d8 (2d6 if the improvised weapon is two-handed). The improvised weapon has a critical threat range of 19–20, with a critical multiplier of ×2.
The damage dice referenced in it start with the base damage dice of a medium creature's light hammer, and despite the fact that it says that it goes to a maximum of 1d8, two handed weapons get 2d6. This might be a reference to the fact that the analogous weapons, a club and a quaterstaff, have the same damage dice.
And anyway, are there any other equivalency rules to go by?
There aren't any other equivalency rules as far as I know. In fact, it's been argued by a few that a mon-empty hand monk can't use weapons as improvised weapons at all. Which is silly, of course.
You can read the rules for improvised weapons on the PRD. They're scant and leave much to the GM to interpret.
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Thanks for all the advice and suggestions, everyone! On a related note, is there any weapon out there that can contain liquids? I recall something like a "shield flask." The reason I want to use improvised weaponry is so I can keep drinking for my drunken monk/barbarian build.
I spoke with someone who wanted to take levels in Magus just to make his (anchor?) magical, but I'm not sure even that would work.
It would.
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I spoke with someone who wanted to take levels in Magus just to make his (anchor?) magical, but I'm not sure even that would work.It would.
I don't see how.
At 1st level, a magus can expend 1 point from his arcane pool as a swift action to grant any weapon he is holding a +1 enhancement bonus for 1 minute. For every four levels beyond 1st, the weapon gains another +1 enhancement bonus, to a maximum of +5 at 17th level. These bonuses can be added to the weapon, stacking with existing weapon enhancement to a maximum of +5. Multiple uses of this ability do not stack with themselves.
A Magus can still only enchant a weapon with his/her Arcane Pool. That Mithral waffle iron is hard enough to hit someone with, as an improvised weapon, but it's a waffle iron as far as your abilities are concerned.
Same reason why you can't use an oil of Magic Weapon, or have one magically enchanted with +1 Flaming.
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And again we come back to "When is an improvised weapon a weapon?", which will likely never reach a consensus without FAQ.
Thanks for all the advice and suggestions, everyone! On a related note, is there any weapon out there that can contain liquids? I recall something like a "shield flask." The reason I want to use improvised weaponry is so I can keep drinking for my drunken monk/barbarian build.
Ignoring the different versions of syringe spears (I doubt you are jonesing for alcohol that hard), you could always go with the hollow pummel found in the weapon and armor accessory section. That directly calls out that it can hold a flask (although the idea is probably more for potions). There is also the false bottom scabbard, which has the same function, but it has a higher perception DC to notice.
Oddly, it does not say what kind of action it to draw or put in this flask when it comes to either item.
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I didn't know it was a debate.
Do people really argue that it's possible to purchase a +1 flaming barstool?
No, because a weapon needs to be a masterwork weapon to be enchanted as a magical weapon. A masterwork barstool (+1 on drinking? who knows) isn't a masterwork weapon.
However, oil of magic weapon and arcane pool would work just fine. They're weapons, after all, even if they're improvised weapons. You just can't perma-enchant one.
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And awaaaaaay we go!
Heh, that's reasonable. If you want to commission a +1 holy bishop's birdstump in my game, I don't see a problem with it in RAW.
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I might allow it in my home games, especially if the PC had ranks in craft or the appropriate creation feats, so they could enchant it themselves. I mean, just look at Thorin Oakenshield. It's certainly possible when you put your mind to it.
I just don't see it supported in the rules, and by extension, in PFS.
If you like. That's the beauty of table variation.
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There's nothing in the rules that suggest you cannot enchant an improvised weapon via magic item creation. The only limitation is that it must be a masterwork weapon. Well, what's stopping a crafter from creating a high quality stool structurally reinforced to function as an exotic combat weapon? In other words, if the item is crafted as a masterwork weapon rather than a masterwork tool, it should work RAW. Especially considering a masterwork weapon costs three times that of a tool, so you're putting some very exceptional craftsmanship into that stool.
As for the damage:
To determine the size category and appropriate damage for an improvised weapon, compare its relative size and damage potential to the weapon list to find a reasonable match. An improvised weapon scores a threat on a natural roll of 20 and deals double damage on a critical hit. An improvised thrown weapon has a range increment of 10 feet.
So compare the object with something comparable. A femur would be a club made out of bone. A broken bottle might be a dagger. In most cases, it should be easy to figure out.
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It's a gray area. Get over it.There's nothing in the rules that suggest you cannot enchant an improvised weapon via magic item creation.Other way around. There's nothing in the rules that says you can enchant a non-weapon.
I don't see it as grey. If you have a rule to city I'd be happy to see it. I've never researched an improvised weapon build, so I fully recognize there might be something out there I'm not familiar with.
Obviously something makes you think it's doable, right?
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It's a gray area. Get over it.There's nothing in the rules that suggest you cannot enchant an improvised weapon via magic item creation.Other way around. There's nothing in the rules that says you can enchant a non-weapon.I don't see it as grey. If you have a rule to city I'd be happy to see it. I've never researched an improvised weapon build, so I fully recognize there might be something out there I'm not familiar with.
Obviously something makes you think it's doable, right?
Where's the rule allowing a fighter to take a crap?
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There isn't one that I'm aware of, Ravingdork.
(that was meant for blahpers)
To butcher an apocryphal Galileo quote: "and yet he craps".
Just goes to show that a whitelist-only rules philosophy is just as silly as a blacklist-only rules philosophy and that the argument of "nothing says I can/can't" by itself is meaningless.
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But, for a consistent play experience, you need a system everyone can agree on. For PFS that system is largely based on the rules as written. If there's a rule that states you can fly by flapping your arms, then you can fly by flapping your arms. If there's no rule for enchanting non-weapon items as weapons, then you can't.
(again, assuming there aren't any such rules, which I'm still happy to see)
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But, for a consistent play experience, you need a system everyone can agree on. For PFS that system is largely based on the rules as written. If there's a rule that states you can fly by flapping your arms, then you can fly by flapping your arms. If there's no rule for enchanting non-weapon items as weapons, then you can't.
(again, assuming there aren't any such rules, which I'm still happy to see)
You don't need a predefined deterministic rule for everything a character can do to have a consistent play experience. If the player wants her PC to do something that the rules don't cover, then the GM comes up with a rule for it. Either it just works, or it doesn't or there's a DC for it, or whatever makes sense for that situation. If later consistency is that important, write the newly-minted rule down and have fun.
Again, this is the beauty of not giving a jot about table variation. Pathfinder is more than the sun total of the specific rules in its text. It's also about collaborative storytelling and agreeing on mechanics to support the group's narrative.
I mean, every module on my shelf creates at least one new rule not present in the rule books. This is consistent with the fact that we have to make up at least one new rule every session I run, published or otherwise. Sometimes we have to revise an older one, and that's okay too so long as it improves the game. It's better than deciding "no, you can't spot in the orc's face, humans don't get a spit attack". That's just giving up your responsibility as a GM.
But, for a consistent play experience, you need a system everyone can agree on. For PFS that system is largely based on the rules as written. If there's a rule that states you can fly by flapping your arms, then you can fly by flapping your arms. If there's no rule for enchanting non-weapon items as weapons, then you can't.
(again, assuming there aren't any such rules, which I'm still happy to see)
You don't need a predefined deterministic rule for everything a character can do to have a consistent play experience. If the player wants her PC to do something that the rules don't cover, then the GM comes up with a rule for it. Either it just works, or it doesn't or there's a DC for it, or whatever makes sense for that situation. If later consistency is that important, write the newly-minted rule down and have fun.
Again, this is the beauty of not giving a jot about table variation. Pathfinder is more than the sun total of the specific rules in its text. It's also about collaborative storytelling and agreeing on mechanics to support the group's narrative.
I mean, every module on my shelf creates at least one new rule not present in the rule books. This is consistent with the fact that we have to make up at least one new rule every session I run, published or otherwise. Sometimes we have to revise an older one, and that's okay too so long as it improves the game. It's better than deciding "no, you can't spit in the orc's face, humans don't get a spit attack". That's just giving up your responsibility as a GM.
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Blahpers, I'm in total agreement with you regarding home games (which I believe I already stated), but the Morphling is looking to create this character for PFS, so I'm giving my answers as a PFS GM, and I haven't seen anything yet that would convince me otherwise.
Simply being able to cause damage with a non-weapon object doesn't suddenly make it a valid target for weapon enchantments. I can cut you with a piece of paper, even a piece of paper shaped like a sword, but good luck enchanting it as a Nine Lives Stealer.
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Simply being able to cause damage with a non-weapon object doesn't suddenly make it a valid target for weapon enchantments.
RAW, it does. When you attack someone with a sack of flour, it's a weapon. It threatens, it has a damage column, type of damage, range increment, critical threat range and multiplier, and so on. It's effectiveness is modified by all of the same mechanics that affect attacking with a longsword, save those that specifically only work for longswords. I know of no mechanic that says "this ability only works for nonimprovised weapons".
RAW, you can take Weapon Focus (sack of flour) and benefit from it when attacking with a sack of flour. You can use Arcane Pool to add flaming to it. You can make a masterwork version of it that optimizes the distribution of the flour's weight such that it hits more often. And you can waste a bunch of money making it a +2 disruption sack of flour.
PFS is free to rule otherwise. They can add it to their ever-growing list of house rules. But like much of PFS play--more than most campaigns that I've played in--it isn't RAW.
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RAW
I've compiled a quick list of the rules-as-written and available options for improvised weapons below. I don't see anything that suggests you can enchant a sack of flour with disruption, or anything that says "non-weapons are allowed to be enchanted as weapons in every way". In fact, the rules for improvised weapons (IMO) indicate the opposite, so I've listed them first. If you have something you'd like to add that I've missed, again, I'm all ears.
Sometimes objects not crafted to be weapons nonetheless see use in combat. Because such objects are not designed for this use, any creature that uses an improvised weapon in combat is considered to be nonproficient with it and takes a –4 penalty on attack rolls made with that object. To determine the size category and appropriate damage for an improvised weapon, compare its relative size and damage potential to the weapon list to find a reasonable match. An improvised weapon scores a threat on a natural roll of 20 and deals double damage on a critical hit. An improvised thrown weapon has a range increment of 10 feet.
Prerequisites: Catch Off-Guard or Throw Anything, base attack bonus +8.
Benefit: You do not suffer any penalties for using an improvised weapon. Increase the amount of damage dealt by the improvised weapon by one step (for example, 1d4 becomes 1d6) to a maximum of 1d8 (2d6 if the improvised weapon is two-handed). The improvised weapon has a critical threat range of 19–20, with a critical multiplier of ×2.
Benefit: When you use a tool of your trade (requiring at least 1 rank in the appropriate Craft or Profession skill) as a weapon, you do not take the improvised weapon penalty and instead receive a +1 trait bonus on your attack. This trait is commonly used with shovels, picks, blacksmith hammers, and other sturdy tools — lutes and brooms make terribly fragile weapons.
Benefit: You do not suffer any penalties for using an improvised ranged weapon. You receive a +1 circumstance bonus on attack rolls made with thrown splash weapons.
Normal: You take a –4 penalty on attack rolls made with an improvised weapon.
Foes are surprised by your skilled use of unorthodox and improvised weapons.
Benefit: You do not suffer any penalties for using an improvised melee weapon. Unarmed opponents are flat-footed against any attacks you make with an improvised melee weapon.
Normal: You take a –4 penalty on attack rolls made with an improvised weapon.
Prerequisite: Worshiper of Asmodeus
Benefit: You treat a torch as a light weapon that deals bludgeoning damage equal to that of a light mace of its size, plus 1 point of fire damage, and you do not incur penalties as you would for using it as an improvised weapon.
Normal: A torch used in combat is treated as a one-handed improvised weapon that deals bludgeoning damage equal to that of a gauntlet of its size, plus 1 point of fire damage.
Benefit: You gain a +2 trait bonus on attack rolls with improvised weapons.
This ability replaces weapon training 2.
Benefit: While raging, if the barbarian pins an opponent that is smaller than her, she can then use that opponent as a two-handed improvised weapon that deals 1d8 points of bludgeoning damage, assuming the opponent is sized Small. Larger or smaller creatures used as a bludgeon deal damage based on their size using this base damage. A size Tiny creature deals 1d6 points of damage, a size Medium creature deals 1d10 points of damage, and so on. The barbarian can make a single attack using the pinned opponent as part of the action she uses to maintain the grapple, using her highest attack bonus. Whenever the barbarian hits using the pinned opponent as a weapon, she deals damage to her target normally, and the grappled opponent used as a bludgeon also takes the same damage she dealt to the target. If the pinned opponent is unable to resist being pinned for any reason, the barbarian can use that opponent as an improvised weapon without grappling or pinning the opponent, until the creature is reduced to 0 or fewer hit points, at which point the creature becomes useless as an improvised weapon.
[spoiler="Monk of the Empty Hand"]The monk of the empty hand eschews normal weapons in favor of whatever is lying around—rocks, chair legs, flagons of ale, even a simple quill pen all become deadly weapons in the hands of such a monk. A monk of the empty hand draws on his own ki to infuse his improvised weapons with power, and can transform a broken bottle into a magical weapon.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Monks of the empty hand are proficient with the shuriken only. A monk of the empty hand treats normal weapons as improvised weapons with the following equivalencies (substituting all of their statistics for the listed weapon): a light weapon functions as a light hammer, a one-handed weapon functions as a club, and a two-handed weapon functions as a quarterstaff. This replaces the normal monk weapon proficiencies.
Flurry of Blows (Ex): Starting at 1st level, a monk of the empty hand can make a flurry of blows using any combination of unarmed strikes or attacks with an improvised weapon. He may not make a flurry of blows with any other weapons, including special monk weapons. A monk of the empty hand's flurry of blows otherwise functions as normal for a monk of his level.
Bonus Feat: A monk of the empty hand adds the following feats to his list of bonus feats at 6th level: Improved Dirty Trick*, Improved Steal*, and Improvised Weapon Mastery.
Versatile Improvisation (Ex): At 3rd level, as a swift action, a monk of the empty hand may use an improvised weapon to deal damage as if it were another type (bludgeoning, piercing, or slashing) for 1 round, regardless of the weapon's normal damage type. This ability replaces still mind.
Ki Pool (Su): At 4th level, in addition to the normal abilities of his ki pool, a monk of the empty hand may spend 1 point from his ki pool to increase the range increment for an improvised thrown weapon or shuriken by 20 feet for 1 round.
Ki Weapons (Su): At 5th level, a monk of the empty hand may spend 1 point from his ki pool as a swift action to deal damage equal to his unarmed strike damage with an improvised weapon for 1 round. At 11th level, the monk may spend ki to grant an enhancement bonus or magical weapon abilities to an improvised weapon for 1 round, at the rate of 1 point of ki per +1 bonus or its equivalent. The monk may not spend more than 3 points of ki at one time for this purpose. For example, a monk can spend 2 points of ki to give his improvised weapon a +1 enhancement bonus and the ki focus quality, or just the flaming burst quality. At 15th level, the limit increases to 5 ki per round. The monk may use this ability to add magical weapon qualities to improvised weapons that could not normally have such a quality, such as adding the disruption quality to a slashing weapon, or the vorpal quality to a bludgeoning weapon. This ability replaces purity of body and diamond body.
Lastly, I think an important distinction here is "how you treat an improvised weapon" vs "what an improvised weapon actually is". If you go out of your way to take feats, traits, and a prestige class or two just to specialize in improvised weapons, then I'd allow you to use use Arcane Strike or a Magus' Arcane Pool (an evolution from my earlier POV), but asking a weaponsmith to create a +2 disrupting bag of flour is a different matter entirely.
It's apparent that neither of us will convince the other about this.
I'm okay with this.