This first post will address my general feelings and suggestions on the bloodrager. Following post will be on the Warpriest. Post after that I can answer details of the builds and what not. Also since friends played the Slayer, brawler, and Swashbuckler I can give comments on what I was able to observe, but this would be limited because I didn’t build those or play them
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Bloodrager
Pros:
1 - Full BAB and 4/9 caster that everyone has wanted.
2 - I really like this class and only have a few tips. I feel it is probably close to what it needs to be in the power ratings so it’s a class that just needs to be polished off.
Cons: (things I believe should be addressed)
1 – 3rd level is a dead level with no ability.
2 – It has only one knowledge skill. While in principle I’m not opposed to this, this is a spontaneous caster that has not had formal training in magic. Would he not have any knowledge of anything else?
3 – Bloodrager needs his own spell list. All other Full BAB-4/9 casters get cool spells that fall in line with the concept.
4 – Bloodline spells feel like dead levels. At 7th level, when you get your first bloodline spell, The bloodrager will have 4 known spells already and will still only be able to cast 1 spell (this does not count high CHA bonus or Rune stones of Power). By level 6, I had all the first level spells I was most likely going to use. I feel that if you are going to leave this feature then these spells should be unique spells that the bloodrager would not otherwise have access to.
5 – Bloodlines need to be cleaned up:
***Aberrant and Abyssal have their resistances at level 8. While Celestial, Draconic, elemental, Undead and Arcane (after a fashion with resist energy) get them at level 4.
***Aberrant and Abyssal’s level 4 ability feels little too strong to have at 4, yet if swapped with the resistance they get at 8 makes the ability feel kind of lackluster there. I would suggest swapping them to 8 and adding something to it.
***I would add 1 or 2 more feats to each of the bloodline options. Being you don’t get this until level 6, I had already picked up the important ones to my build, leaving few enticing options. I feel there was not a lot of utility in the choices. I believe only draconic had a skill focus option.
***Some bloodlines feel like they are far behind the others in power. I would like to this to be balanced more.
Last suggestion, when creating the different bloodragers I felt the only difference was what bloodline I picked. They didn’t vary much in feat selection or weapon type. (I guess I could have made different fighting styles but all of them where 2 handed weapon people) I feel that the DR and Uncanny dodge could be possible be dropped to give them access to rage powers. Maybe advance at a slower rate. Starting at level 6 and every 4 levels after with their Barbarian level counting as their bloodrager level -4?
All in all I really like the class. I can post builds if people request it.
PS: Sorry for the formatting, didnt know how to clean it up any more.
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Warpriest
First I chose to test the warpriest because I felt qualified to comment due to it being one of my favorite concepts and Playing battle oriented clerics through multiple level ranges. With the PF rules I played a cleric of Gorum to 17 in rise of the runelords.
Pros:
Only thing I have is that the blessings had some good concepts and potential failed execution.
Cons:
I can’t number these cause I would not know where to start. Let me say this: Play testing a level 6 warpriest of Iomedae vs 5cleric/1fighter of Iomedae yielded that the cleric/fighter was the better combatant. I chose to play the bloodrager for these home events but I allowed my brother to try out the character. He got frustrated and soon quit. I don’t blame him; the character suffers from such a bad action economy. Testing again at level 12 and 9/3 and got the same results. The class has great ideas but is poorly executed. (Disclaimer:You can swap the Iomedae out with Gorum to swap from Longsword/sheild to Greatsword.)
The warpriest does not fix the issue that all battle clerics have of spending several rounds buffing. I feel this problem is the key to understanding the primary issue with battle clerics. With (nearly) all the blessings being Standard actions this is no different from casting buffing spells.
Oh, and the delayed channel energy feels incredible underwhelming.
Suggestions:
For me to give proper direction I would need to know what they envision the class being. If it is a standalone Melee type then by suggestion would be to do the Full BAB-4/9 casting. As Paizo does not want to do this, my next suggestion would be to make all the blessings swift actions. This would make the class at least playable in its current form.
As of now the blessings fall behind quickly. Very few of the blessings scale with the character. The ones that come to mind are the Battle Companion but there are a few more. I would suggest making all the blessings scale or giving them new powers every so many levels, Instead of just at level 1 and 10.
Last SUGGESTION, NEW CONCEPT:
I believe another great direction to take the character would be as a group buffer. The name is Warpriest. When I think of wars, I think of hundreds or more combatants on either side of the engagement. How cool would it be if he used his divine inspiration to rally others. There are so many ways you could go with this. The easiest would be just making the buff blessings be AE effects. Then they become worth a standard action and don’t step on the toes of bards due to the fact they would be stacking different effects.
Other ways to pull this off would be reward combat; when he lands a successful attack on an enemy his allies would get general bonus or bonus to that enemy. The possibilities are endless. We are ready have the self-buffing ¾ BAB divine warrior in the Inquisitor. I think this would be the ¾ BAB divine group buffer would really have its own niche. I think this is the best direction to take the class since Paizo does not want to make him Full BAB.
From what I viewed of the other 3 (remember take this with a grain of salt cause I didn't build them or play them.
Level 6 Swashbuckler: Only every got hit by Channel negative energy I believe. With parry, he was never touched; and with a 15-20 crit range he was able to get back some panache. He did complain that at level 6 he didn't have much to do with this panache other than Parry. Being limited to 3 panache points he never used the riposte. He did reasonable damage. I know he had terrible saves and would probably have to sink feats into helping boost it. All in all the character seemed to work OK.
Level 6 Slayer: Was using a 2 handed reach weapon, I'm assuming full STR build but I didn't look. He did massive damage, was very impressive. The only comment I have was when it came time to use skills I found out that even though its a ranger (6 skills per level) and rogue (8 skills per level) crossbreed that it only had 4 skills per level. This left him kind of starved for skills being he used Acrobatics, Stealth, Perception, and Bluff (for feint). The class looked good with the exception that while its two parent classes are skill oriented it falls of short here.
Level 6 Brawler: Martial maneuvers for versatility, bonus to Maneuvers, Monk like attacking. I was very impressed with this class. While its a monster on the battle field, didn't seem to have much else to it. Don't think its really a problem cause its parent, the fighter, has the same issue.
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WarpriestThe warpriest does not fix the issue that all battle clerics have of spending several rounds buffing.
Almost verbatim what our Warpriest tester said. I like the idea of swift action for Blessings. And why not a full BAB? So much of the Warpriest is underwhelming without it. As the tester pointed out- "A great class, if you happen to hit your enemy."
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OK - more detail on the playtest since I actually ran it. From memory, can't locate my notes.
Everyone had 6th level characters, 20 pt buy, standard 6th level gold to buy gear. I ran Dawn of the Scarlet Son for four 6th level characters as recommended in the module for a smaller party. As noted above by Slacker, party was a bloodrager, slayer, brawler, swashbuckler, and (temporarily) warpriest. Yes, basically a party of frontliners.
I also threw a warm up encounter at the original party of 5 characters. It was basically an endless horde of 1st level goblins so they could try out their characters and work out any kinks. After a few rounds of goblin slaying, something important began apparent: the warpriest lagged significantly behind all four other characters in combat capability, and interestingly enough, speed. He had to spend a round or two buffing and then had to chase down the combat. He was in heavy armor (move 20 ft) and everyone else was in light (30 ft or better). By the time he engaged with the enemy, everyone else had downed at least a half dozen goblins.
The player with the warpriest dropped out of the game at that point (mainly cause he was bored with the warpriest). We continued the module at that point. The party did the ambush and killed everything, went through the catacombs, and cleared it out, barely. Trying to avoid spoilers - but the final battle featured the party fighting itself as the slayer was turned against the party.
Notes on each class:
Warpriest: See above. Action economy a definite issue.
Brawler: Looks pretty solid. Player built it fairly defensive, with a high dex for AC. Instant feat ability is really neat, but requires a lot of planning. Player built it with thought of using this ability to gain Improved two weapon fighting chain based on flurry ability, which implies you have two weapon fighting based on description. Might need to be clarified.
Slayer: Player built for heavy damage with single swing. He used vital strike on any round he studied an enemy, which came in very handy as he took down most things in a one round. Including the brawler! Crits happen.
Bloodrager: Solid class. Was effectively acting as a barbarian with defensive buffs in place. Almost better than a barbarian...
Swashbuckler: I actually built this one and ran it. I built around the spring attack and whirlwind attack feats, but was still able to get solid damage (1d6+10/15-20). Changing out a few feats I could have easily boosted damage. (FYI Damage bonus was STR 2 + 1 magic + 1 weapon training + 6 precision)
I didn't use panache until the last fight. All of the early deeds are defensive in nature, and with my 22 AC, decent damage, and traveling with three other killing machines, I simply didn't need it. Until the final fight, where it kept the slayer from killing me. I was able to parry one of his strikes, and use recovery to bump my AC and get clear of his second attack. Very nice.
Will probably have more thoughts if I find my actual notes...
Almost verbatim what our Warpriest tester said. I like the idea of swift action for Blessings. And why not a full BAB? So much of the Warpriest is underwhelming without it. As the tester pointed out- "A great class, if you happen to hit your enemy."
While I agree with you, If they want it to be self buffing strait focused on melee, It should be Full BAB. Otherwise, I dont see why this class would be needed since we have the inquisitor.
But Jason Bulmahn said they are not making it a full bab, you can READ ABOUT IT HERE.
These post are there to give constructive critizm and help to designers. That being said im sad your not commenting on my last paragraph. I think there could be a niche for a 3/4 bab buffer. Some one that focuses on group fighting.
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I think there could be a niche for a 3/4 bab buffer. Some one that focuses on group fighting.
There is a niche for a 3/4 BAB buffer. And it is filled very well by this class called the bard....
As far as warpriest goes, I think it's going to end up being the paladin of any alignment. It will be able to swift heal itself, do some sort of self buff for combat to replace smite evil, and have a unique favored weapon mechanic to give it a different feel. It might have auras that act as a group buff, but unlikely given the design information discussed thusfar.
There is a niche for a 3/4 BAB buffer. And it is filled very well by this class called the bard....
I should have said:
I think there could be a niche for a 3/4 bab Divine Buffer. Someone that focuses on group fighting.
By the thought process above, why have barbarians and Fighters? They do the same thing. I think the key is one is pure martial while one uses supernatural (rage) powers to do it. I think we need a different type of buffer and this character could be it. Hence my pitch for it. Sadly it will probably be just what you said. Inquisitor clone without skills.
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There is a niche for a 3/4 BAB buffer. And it is filled very well by this class called the bard....I should have said:
I think there could be a niche for a 3/4 bab Divine Buffer. Someone that focuses on group fighting.
By the thought process above, why have barbarians and Fighters? They do the same thing. I think the key is one is pure martial while one uses supernatural (rage) powers to do it. I think we need a different type of buffer and this character could be it. Hence my pitch for it. Sadly it will probably be just what you said. Inquisitor clone without skills.
I was being facetious. Should have included the smiley face after the bard line. :-)
And yes it will be like an inquisitor without skills. Or a paladin with 3/4 bab. Or a battle Oracle sans curse. Or a cleric with heavy armor and different sparkley bits. The divine warrior niche is awfully crowded. :-)
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I built and ran the Brawler, but some of the ambiguity around the class hurt my build.
First, I was not aware the Brawler could use Feats that required Fighter or Monk levels. Second, like our DM explained, I was unclear if I could use improved two weapon fighting with Brawler's fury. Third, I assumed the Combat Maneuvers per day limit referred to using the ability and not the number of feats, e.g., at lvl 6 being able to activate 6 feats in a day versus just 3. Fourth, I took the Combat Maneuvers ability to be the central focus of the class, when it's really more focused on being a lightly armored fighter with unarmed attacks. And fifth, I would have greatly benefitted from either a tailored spreadsheet breaking down all the feats I can use or Slacker's uncanny knowledge of them.
With all that said, the Brawler is basically a fighter with a little more flavor. I rolled an elf and went dex-based. I had a decent AC and the ability to use a composite long bow. But my con was neutral. If I made a new brawler, I'd go STR-based and would splash a level of cleric or fighter so I could wear heavier armor. Armor doesn't really affect a Braer's abilities and you will need the AC without high dex.
Despite my build and its issues, I feel like the Brawler could use some tweaking. Even though the class offers some brief moments of extraordinary versatility, a fighter would bring more damage and defense to any given fight. And this feeds into my biggest complaint about the class--economy of action.
You can't rely on combat maneuvers to be a quick counter to an enemy unless you are already in position. And using two feats puts you behind a round. This changes at 10th level when activating one feat is a swift action. Considering the limited number of times you can activate a feat in a day, I think activating a single feat should always be a swift action with two requiring a move action and three a standard action.
Edit: I meant martial maneuvers, not combat maneuvers.