Skill Challenges?

[pennywit]

I'm somewhat intrigued by the Skill Challenge mechanic from D&D 4E as a way to resolve some upcoming diplomatic situations in my Kingmaker game. Is there a good resource online somewhere that goes into the nuts and bolts of creating such things? I've consulted the Googles. Great for finding lots of articles, not so great for helping me find a good, concise resource.

Has anybody used such things?

PS. Is there a table somewhere that offers good rules of thumb for setting skill DCs? (i.e., easy, moderate, difficult, hard, OMG!)?

[Are]

For the last part, 3.5 had a table of difficulty class examples:

3.5 PHB wrote:

Difficulty (DC) - Example (Skill Used)

Very easy (0) - Notice something large in plain sight (Spot)
Easy (5) - Climb a knotted rope (Climb)
Average (10) - Hear an approaching guard (Listen)
Tough (15) - Rig a wagon wheel to fall off (Disable Device)
Challenging (20) - Swim in stormy water (Swim)
Formidable (25) - Open an average lock (Open Lock)
Heroic (30) - Leap across a 30-foot chasm (Jump)
Nearly impossible (40) - Track a squad of orcs across hard ground after 24 hours of rainfall (Survival)

That isn't quite what you were asking for, I think, but it's the closest I could remember where to find at the moment :)

[Jake the Brawler]

The old DCs were errata'd, so the errata PDFs hold them (DMG1 errata), but that's not useful for Pathfinder use. The difficulties are easy, moderate and hard.

Skill challenges have levels and complexities. Level determines skill DC along with difficulty, while complexity determines how many skill checks you must make before 3 failures.

A skill challenge is worth XP equal to a CR "monster fraction". A complexity 1 skill challenge (4 successes before 3 failures) is worth 1 monster for the whole party. A max complexity is worth 5, as much as a combat encounter.

[pennywit]

Jake and Are:

Thank you very much. Between the two of these, I have a pretty good idea how I want to structure my skill challenges. This is more or less what I need. I'm looking for a way to handle diplomatic encounters. I thought about the Dynasties & Demagogues "complex debate" rules, but those things were ludicrously complex and put my players at a HUGE disadvantage in any diplomatic encounter.

[Dave Justus]

I briefly ran some 4th ed games, and one of the things going into it that I thought was really neat in concept was the skill challenge.

In practice it didn't work out well, at least for me and my group. The successive skill checks got in the way of role playing, the whole mechanic felt forces and artificial and basically we just didn't like it.

[Gargs454]

Skill challenges can be hit or miss and in my experience, really depend on the table makeup (i.e. what type of players you have). The skill challenge can be really useful for things like negotiating a treaty or trying to get aid from a powerful neighbor, etc. The success vs. failure mechanic can read as how the talks progress.

Frex: "Your arguments seem to resonate with Duke Fancy Pants but he points out that while his troops are highly skilled, they are relatively few in number and he is concerned about a potential uprising among the peasants given that he had to raise taxes to fund his new game room." (One success)

then

"Duke Fancy Pants scowls at you dismissively and says that what good is a Duke who can not relax? Of course he has to have his new game room!" (One Failure)

The problem is that a lot of players (particularly if they are not as in to the roleplaying) will simply say "Oh, this is a Diplomacy thing huh? Paladin! Get Over here and roll diplomacy!" Additionally, it can feel like a let down when a player gives a great flowing argument only to roll a 1 on the skill check (hence the cutting through the rp). One way to rectify this is to give out bonuses, or even auto successes when there is great roleplay. There's no need to refuse to change the "rules" to deny rp opportunities. Plus, a Nat 1 is not an auto failure.

The biggest challenge comes in finding ways to get the whole party involved, but then, you run into that with any RP scene imho.

[pennywit]

Actually, treaty negotiations is precisely what I have in mind.

[Taow]

I was going to suggest PCs arrested or captured, trying to talk their way out of it while being held separately, good way to make sure they're all involved.

As for treaty negotiations, they can be dealing with multiple representatives of the other faction. Those different representatives can take a liking to different PCs, providing a bonus to their check that may outweigh using the skill monkey.

[mln84]

Try this.

[jcarleski]

I recently put out a free skill challenge handbook that might help you out here.

The short version of it is that you really need to ensure that every roll your players make has consequence and that there is a clearly stated end goal. Skill challenges fall apart very fast when the mechanics separate from the fiction. Partial successes also go a long way.