DMing for RPG Veterans


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

Wayfinders

Yes, as the title states, I am running a game for two nearly 40 year RPG veterans, typically one is pretty cool with the way I DM my Reign of Winter game, the other is stubborn.

One of the vets, we'll call him Tim grew up and progressed through most of the D&D systems to date. However, he joined Pathfinder as soon as it came out, we playtested the beta and have a large copy sitting in my room. Tim has generally DMed for us his homebrew world.

The other we'll name Bob, Bob is my father. He is typically stubborn and militaristic, so, he's a very Black and White type of guy although, he's not particularly bad.

Then there is me, I am new to DMing, and in total have run 26 gaming sessions and counting. Simply put, I'm seventeen, and am running the Reign of Winter Adventure Path.

Many times I have come across the issue of not living up to their expectations, however, thus far they say that I am doing good. I'm including all the role-playing situations I can think of because the group wants more of that and less of action.

I'll give out one of my situations I had happen in my game last week:

My father's character, who is a Bard, went into a cave looking for loot in a witchcrow den and they found it, looted her room and came across another role-playing situation where they were not stop just confronted. It was by a smaller witchcrow named Casis, my father asked him to come along, but the witchcrow didn't want to out of fear.

My father gave this mocking statement, saying that even with an 18 Charisma and as a Bard, he couldn't get NPCS to go with them.

Was he correct in this aspect. Keep in mind that I am new.


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No, your father is wrong. Totally wrong. If a NPC is so frightened that he fears for his life, no character stats (without a dice role of any kind) may change that. If you decide that this decision may be changed by proper roleplay and/or a diplomacy check let him role a check. But simply demanding that he deserves something because his stats are high enough is a bad play style.


RP is a fluid, gray area mostly decided on by the GM. If your father is black and white and militaristic as you describe, then he'll respect the fact that in every version of D&D the GM has the final say in such matters. Your word is law - this is the mantra GM's from the dawn of the game have chanted in the face of such player criticism. Your father may be doing nothing more than testing your resolve as a GM.

That being said I've always been a GM who extrapolates from SOME kind of rule to support my decisions in gray areas. Look at the rules for the Diplomacy skill: you need to take a full minute, out of combat, and chat w/a creature just to get the chance to improve its mood by one step. You can only do this on the same creature 1/day. I don't know anything about this AP, Witchcrows or levels, but I know the Diplomacy rules. I'll give you an example out of my own game:

A LG male human paladin 1 with an 18 Cha, 1 rank in Diplomacy and the Persuasive feat captures a kobold just outside a dungeon. The thing is frightened and alone, however he knows fighting is not an option as he really wants to live. He is craven, selfish; not a zealot. I decide based on that to set his initial attitude at Unfriendly instead of Hostile.

Now I as the GM also know: if this kobold goes back in the dungeon w/these PCs as a guide or whatever and gets caught its a fate WORSE than death. The kobold knows this too. Based on all the above, I ask my paladin player what he's doing. He decides to play good cop and make a request of the kobold to show them a safe way into the dungeon.

What ended up happening is that the player made a good roll, lowered the creature's attitude to Indifferent and then another decent roll for the request (total after all bonuses of 26). He also gave an impassioned speech about how the kobold would be protected and such. Despite the effort the best the kobold would offer was a map in the dirt. He DID however beg to be taken back to the city as a slave/prisoner. He would serve his master well, do as he was told, etc. He absolutely refused under pain of death to return to the only home he'd known his entire kobold life.

I guess my point is: be fair but firm with your players. If you simply drop the hammer and say no to their requests, you'll get snarky comments; if you acquiesce to every player suggestion however your players will just win everything. Find a middle ground, based on rules, and stick to your convictions.


Someone much smarter than me on these boards said "the Diplomacy skill is not the same a charm and dominate spells." Even with a +1,052 diplomacy check, you can only make the creature yer best friend, not make him do things he would not do.

I would, perhaps, add a few situations where the campaign world reacts to the bard's powerful personality, letting him see that you remember that he is a bard and a sha-nazy one at that, like overhearing a conversation about how awesome some farmers think he is, or that the barmaids get into a (verbal) fight over who gets to wait on his table, or how, after a day spent 'gathering information' the barb is greeted by nearly everyone, by name and with a smile.

I would also add in that no one remembers the other guy.


2 people marked this as a favorite.

The most important thing you can do for yourself when playing with "veterans" is to remember that this is a group effort and while their experience can be a help, you should never allow it to become a hindrance.

This is your game, not your farther's, and your way to rp the npcs is no more wrong than the way he would have done it, it's just different.

You did good :-)


Mr_Nevada wrote:

Yes, as the title states, I am running a game for two nearly 40 year RPG veterans, typically one is pretty cool with the way I DM my Reign of Winter game, the other is stubborn.

One of the vets, we'll call him Tim grew up and progressed through most of the D&D systems to date. However, he joined Pathfinder as soon as it came out, we playtested the beta and have a large copy sitting in my room. Tim has generally DMed for us his homebrew world.

The other we'll name Bob, Bob is my father. He is typically stubborn and militaristic, so, he's a very Black and White type of guy although, he's not particularly bad.

Then there is me, I am new to DMing, and in total have run 26 gaming sessions and counting. Simply put, I'm seventeen, and am running the Reign of Winter Adventure Path.

Many times I have come across the issue of not living up to their expectations, however, thus far they say that I am doing good. I'm including all the role-playing situations I can think of because the group wants more of that and less of action.

I'll give out one of my situations I had happen in my game last week:

My father's character, who is a Bard, went into a cave looking for loot in a witchcrow den and they found it, looted her room and came across another role-playing situation where they were not stop just confronted. It was by a smaller witchcrow named Casis, my father asked him to come along, but the witchcrow didn't want to out of fear.

My father gave this mocking statement, saying that even with an 18 Charisma and as a Bard, he couldn't get NPCS to go with them.

Was he correct in this aspect. Keep in mind that I am new.

Your father could max diplomacy which is what is actually used to convince people, not charisma alone, and he may still not convince anyone to risk their lives.


I don't think there's any reason a high charisma player should expect to be able to persuade NPCs to accompany them.

Having said that, I like to give players reward for that aspect of their character they choose to emphasise. In this case, I think it would be good if the bard had got some reward that a "low charisma" character wouldn't have. Not because its in the rules, but because that's what he sees as a feature of his character.

I would have had the NPC decline the offer but instead offered some small boon. Maybe a healing charm/potion or even better some advice about an upcoming challenge.

Wayfinders

Basically, in the AP, the Witchcrows are supposed to be a nuisance to the White Witches that live there (think of them as the Witch out of "Narnia: The Lion, The Witch, and the Wardrobe"). Simply put, Witchcrows are creatures that desire knowledge of witchcraft and the White Witches are the biggest source for that, therefore, they tend to always flutter towards more powerful witches.

Therefore, since Irrisen is an NE and LE land, I came up with a good reason why Witchcrows aren't usually allowed in the major cities:

They are generally, caught and turned into Witchcrow Stew and it is said to be a delicacy in Irrisen.

Thereby, I even told Bob this in character to symbolize that he would rather keep scavenging and be safe than risk his life and get caught.

BTW this is not the first time that this has happened, however, there was this one Wintertouched Forleen Bard that happened by the party, and she took a special interest in Bob's character because of him saying that he came from Taldor. So, she told him her story and awaited his story.

There have been times that he has been recognized, but no more than anyone else.


your dad, huh? tough break there.

so it sounds like your dad's using a little passive agressive psychology on you. likely not intentionally, either.

Remember this statement. "thanks for the advice, but this is how I'm going to run it."

You don't need to be confrontational, just let them know that you are the gm. It's hard as hell to run for old hat players, because they have all these expectations and more than a little force of personality (at least for the game). You, as a new gm, are setting your own methods, not dancing for the players, which is a big mistake everyone makes when they're new. It's ok if you admit you can't handle something on the spot. It sounds like you came up with a pretty good story reason, and I'd stick with that.

being able to say, to yourself and in front of your players that this thing is not expected, or I don't know how to work that into the storyline is a good way to learning just how to expect it and work them in. If your old hat players are as good as they claim, they'll be more than happy to give you ideas and work with you to promote the story/gameplay.

I could relate all the times I got pushed into the corner by a player, but I don't want to scare you off :)


shadowmage75 wrote:
It's hard as hell to run for old hat players, because they have all these expectations and more than a little force of personality (at least for the game)...

Oh, yeah. I used to be quite the dildo when playing, because I was so used to the driver's seat as DM.


It's also hard as us grognards have so much genre savvy. Half-naked sexy babe chained up in BBEG room? Succubus trap, every time.

As Hrun the barbarian said: "You find chokeapples under a chokeapple tree. You find treasure under altars.".

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