The 1st level PCs are investigating goblin activity in an area. The encounter incoming is a goblin warband, 15 goblins. You roll for encounter distance, and get a reasonable amount of distance between the two groups.
The goblins make their perception checks to spot the PCs. The PCs fail.
The goblins go into surprise round, and rain arrowy death on the PCs. Then you go into normal initiative - and the goblins have most of the PCs dead by the end of that round, and will get another shot or two off before the survivors can engage in melee, and can easily continue the attack and hound the survivors if they flee.
So, presuming all dice are rolled in the open - what would you do differently? I'm inclined not to fudge / cheat, myself, so...
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
15 goblins gives just over 2000 XP- that's a CR 5 encounter. And that's assuming that the warband doesn't have a higher-level leader. If they do, it's likely a CR 6. Your PCs are all level one, so the encounter is either 4 or 5 CR higher than their average level. The CRB sets "epic" hard encounters at CR 3 above the party's average level.
Tl;dr you have way too many goblins.
|
I want to say we ran into 15+ goblins at first level in a current campaign, but they didn't jump us all at once, it was a drawn out battle across a battlefield with a lot of buildings and cover, and the goblins involved were of the Golarion variety, so they did take some strategically unsound options.
Made for a very fun, cinematic fight with some hairy moments.
I don't think we would have made it if it had been an ambush with goblins using optimal tactics though.
Way too many goblins. Six is enough to be a hard fight if the goblins pull surprise.
If you wanted the party to encounter the goblins but not be at risk of surprise-death, have the waveband doing something that prevents them from being perceived, or have the encounter take place in an area where surprise is not meaningful (like an open plain of short grass), or leave clues that a sizable goblin encounter may be imminent so that the players are more likely to be prepared.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
This is a perfectly proper way to kill off a first level party. What did they do to deserve getting killed off?
"Hey gang, sounds like there's a horde of goblins moving through the Southgate District, by the old abandoned mansion! Let's head over there in the Mystery Wagon and see if we can pick up their trail!" - and the PCs were never heard from again.
If this is how it played out then AD is right. However if they had taken some precautions or had bad/no intel or whatever, then this is a jacked up way to go out. If we're assuming 15 goblin warrior 1 w/no leaders, mounts or other support creatures, you're STILL looking at 135xp *15 = 2025 xp as Lurk3r states. That is the equivalent of surprising your party with a Very Young Black Dragon, which doesn't sound so bad except when you figure that in the surprise round he hits the party with 4d6 Acid as a breath weapon. That's 14HP average damage.
If THAT doesn't kill the PCs outright, then by the time they roll initiative and decide to flee, it could Charge attack with it's bite for Melee bite +7 (1d6 +3) for avg damage of 6HP. Combined with the lead-in of the Breath Weapon and a ridiculous fly speed, no WAY any of the party survives.
Or if you want to stick with the 15 goblins, in the surprise round you're talking about 15 Ranged +4 (1d4/x3) attacks that are made against Flat Footed AC. That's a solid chance to hit on every attack, but if even only 8 hit you've just delivered 5HP damage to every PC in the group before they've even moved/acted. Then you've got the first initiative round; if the party moves to attack, they'll each be taking another 2HP damage before they engage or if they flee it's the same unless there's cover. If this hasn't killed the party, then when they finally begin melee Aid Another and mob tactics ensure that the party continues taking 1d4/round fairly consistently. My guess is even the fighter is dead by round 4.
Now, cast your mind: remember all those Bruce Lee movies you watched as a kid? Where 30 guys surrounded him but only 1 or 2 at a time came at him until he'd wheedled them down and then when they all swarmed he finished 'em off? Master Lee was STILL pretty beaten up, but he was alive. Why not run it like that?
Surprise round: the goblins sneer and send out "Tiny", the mutant bruiser who is size Medium and has a 15 Str. The PCs wipe the floor with the guy and then a few more rush 'em in round 1. By the start to round 2 between a sleep spell and some tough fighting the PCs have suffered a few D4 damage but the goblins are down to 8 of their guys and they swarm. The party, using cover and tactics, ends up with a nicked wizard, a nearly dead fighter and rogue, and a beat up cleric out of spells, but they're all alive.
Fair enough. To add some detail though: The PCs knew there were goblins in the area, and that it was a major encroachment, not just a pack of goblins running around and causing trouble. So they weren't going into this blind. I'd used a randomizer to determine what type of group was coming in, and it was 'warband', though I didn't use the goblin dogs. Even if I used 8 goblins, it might have ended up the same.
The thing is, I tend to run my monsters more or less as 'PCs'. IE, if appropriate, the monsters will use tactics, set up ambushes, and behave more or less as PCs would if the roles were reversed. Goblins are Int 10, Wis 9 - they're not idiots by a long stretch. So, after finding out encounter distance, perception checks, and the like, it made perfect sense for the 'pull out bows and fire'.
Still, I wanted input, thanks for that. :)
As for Master Lee - well, that was a movie, and taking dramatic license. I don't think the goblins would be of a mind of having anyone risk themselves if not necessary. Shoot from a distance, and loot the bodies (otherwise, why give the goblins bows?)
Christopher, I understand what you are saying. I also play my NPCs and monsters with what I consider to be appropriate levels of tactical ability and cleverness.
But I also keep in mind that the purpose of the game is to give the PCs an opportunity to shine in combat and out. So I will adjust things as necessary to keep the story going. If the PCs did something really stupid like ignore a "Warning! Here be dragons" sign, then c'est la vie. But if not then I'm probably going to adjust encounters to be appropriate for them to succeed.
I have made this comment before and I'll make it again here. I've done a lot of study of military battles throughout history. There are some exceptions where both sides performed brilliant tatics and the battle was like some sort of lesson on tactical genius, but those have been rare indeed.
The vast, vast majority of battles I've studied have been examples of one side winning almost entirely through the ineptitude, mistakes or bad luck of the other side. That includes battles led by the greatest military minds ever to lead soldiers into combat.
If I am playing a warband of goblins against PCs led by players who aren't trying to become the next Patton, I'll play the goblins as similarly inept at tactics. This balances out the game and is actually more "realistic" when considering the history of combat I've actually seen. Goblins, in particular, are likely to include lazy, spiteful or downright moronic party members.
When my players get more adept at tactics and move up the level tree, I play them as encountering more "elite" NPCs that are also more adept at tactics.
For a typical level 1 party encounter, I'm probably going to use the most basic and brute force based tactics possible. And I'm going to be having goblins who are injured or who see a friend die rolling will saves to see if they break and run.
That's what actually happens in combat.
For a typical level 1 party encounter, I'm probably going to use the most basic and brute force based tactics possible. And I'm going to be having goblins who are injured or who see a friend die rolling will saves to see if they break and run.
That's what actually happens in combat.
Then wouldn't the most basic and brute force tactic be 'shoot the hell out of your enemy'? Using the military example, a group who sees the enemy 'way the hell over there' would be more likely to pull their guns and fire, then run up and engage, right?
Same scenario with me as GM...
PCs are out goblin hunting...encounter warband...PCs roll crap for their perception...we'll start here.
Goblins roll perception individually, the goblins that succeed can act in the surprise round...if whatever passes for leadership amongst the warband is one who succeeds then s/he attempts to organize the group, so some sort of charisma check. If successful then I'd roll a d6 for each other goblin who was successful on the perception check...on a six they don't listen to the leader and start shooting, anything else and they have some sort of cohesion. Assuming no goblin fires early that's their surprise round. Party gets another chance at perception and if they still flub it then the goblins all shoot at flat footed PCs.
Assuming the leader fails to keep everyone in order either the goblins who rolled a six will fire, and only them. Ending their surprise round and the party rolls initiative and things go from there.
If the leader doesn't make the perception check any of the goblins who did succeed take shots, ending their surprise round and the PCs roll initiative.
Goblins are pretty spastic compulsive buggers, so there's very little chance of the party receiving a full volley while flat footed my way.
Now, going back to your case...there was no where for the party to take cover? Their only recourse was to charge into melee and hope to survive long enough to get there? They had no one out scouting ahead? This sounds like an example of player and GM failure...15 goblins is a pretty crazy number to put them up against, but if you're playing goblins as goblins, and we're not talking open fields, I think it's doable...though the party needs to remove their heads from their hind ends to manage it.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Screw realism. Getting ganked by an Epic++ long range ambush encounter at level 1 would make me question whether I wanted to play with this GM again.
Your job as a GM is to make sure the encounter is balanced if it's not supposed to be a "punishment encounter" or similar. It can be hard, but it needs to be doable.
A CR 3 encounter is hard, but doable for level 1 characters. A CR 6 is a death sentence if all of the goblins attack at once, especially if you're trying to run them as intelligent and tactical goblins.
Unless the goblins are given some kind of handicap, that's an encounter that's pretty much impossible to win, especially since it's an ambush (no creative preparations the PCs can take to even the battlefield).
As a GM you're working with a stacked deck already. You can send anything and everything at the PCs you want. You can outright kill them easily. Good encounter balance involves trimming back your options to the ones manageable for your party if it's something you sent after them (if it's a sandbox you need to warn them about it, but if they wander into the middle of "Orc City" and get mobbed by 100 of them...well that's their fault).
In short, this isn't a well designed encounter by any stretch. It's overkill.
What I would do differently is not send 15 goblins after 4 guys. 8 or 9 is a more reasonable number. You can get away with more if you send some militia or town guard or something with them. Level 1 Human Warriors to level the playing field. If the party was 7-8 strong, effectively, then 15 wouldn't be an issue.
I'd chalk this encounter up as a learning experience and pay closer attention to encounter difficulty next time. It happens. It sucks when it happens, but balancing an encounter is pretty hard sometimes.
Fraust is right about how the goblins would respond. For a start, goblins are idiots. They're easily distracted, badly organised and prone to squabbling. It's unlikely that they'd all have had bows; some would want to set the PCs on fire, some would charge, some would stop for something to eat and some would run away because the PCs had horses. Horses!!!
Hobgoblins (military, organised, strong leadership) would indeed react in exactly the way you've described, but goblins (at least Golarion goblins) are very different.
(edit) And it would take them time to string their bows anyway, giving the PCs time to notice them and probably making their response even less coordinated.
Then wouldn't the most basic and brute force tactic be 'shoot the hell out of your enemy'? Using the military example, a group who sees the enemy 'way the hell over there' would be more likely to pull their guns and fire, then run up and engage, right?For a typical level 1 party encounter, I'm probably going to use the most basic and brute force based tactics possible. And I'm going to be having goblins who are injured or who see a friend die rolling will saves to see if they break and run.
That's what actually happens in combat.
Christopher, not necessarily. First of all, do all your goblins have bows? In most situations I've seen small poorly funded forces tend to have only one part of the force using bows or other ranged weapons. It's a lot easier to hand a recruit a club or a rudimentary short sword than it is to outfit them with bows and arrows. So in my world anyway a typical "warband" of 15 goblins might have five with bows.
But this discussion of tactics is already going in what I believe to be the wrong direction. The real question is whether your players did anything to deserve having the hammer of god fall on them. I asked already, so I'll repeat myself. What did your players do that led you to believe a TPK was the lesson they needed?
I think I'd be questioning if I wanted to play with a GM who had goblins acting intelligently or using tactics...Kobolds or hobgoblins (as stated above), sure I can see, but goblins?
I think I'd be questioning if I wanted to play with a GM who had goblins acting intelligently or using tactics...Kobolds or hobgoblins (as stated above), sure I can see, but goblins?
Goblins have an Int of 10, and a Wis of 9, about on par with the average human. That means yes, they would act intelligently, and use tactics. They're not stupid. If they had an Int / Wis of 7 or so I might have them forego tactics and just rush.
Some of the advice given, I'm not sure I'd use - I'd certainly not accept them if I was a player. Random dice rolls to see if they'll follow orders? I don't know - as a player, I'd be less inclined to play, because the GM was being 'soft' on me.
I think next time something like this comes up, I'll just lower the number of goblins. Yes, there ARE warbands in the area, that much the PCs knew ahead of time. Yes, the players SHOULD have been using stealth tactics, since they knew they were in hostile territory - but even if I dropped the number to 6 or so... the PCs weren't being sneaky, the goblins got their spot checks at range, the PCs blew theirs, and the goblins got surprise attack, and enough distance between them and the group to get a second shot if the PCs charged, and enough mobility to get the PCs if they retreated. It was just a bad scene.
I want to say we ran into 15+ goblins at first level in a current campaign, but they didn't jump us all at once, it was a drawn out battle across a battlefield with a lot of buildings and cover, and the goblins involved were of the Golarion variety, so they did take some strategically unsound options.
Made for a very fun, cinematic fight with some hairy moments.
I don't think we would have made it if it had been an ambush with goblins using optimal tactics though.
That's fun. I run encounters like this fairly often.
But what you're talking about here, with the terrain and cover, and the 15 goblins split up, is really just a bunch of smaller encounters that seem like a larger encounter because they all took place in basically one location.
But basically, these are individual encounters. It's the difference between spreading the party's daily allotment of encounters throughout and entire day, or just having them happen back to back. Six of one/half dozen of the other.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Some of the advice given, I'm not sure I'd use - I'd certainly not accept them if I was a player. Random dice rolls to see if they'll follow orders? I don't know - as a player, I'd be less inclined to play, because the GM was being 'soft' on me.
But the difference between being a good GM and a not-so-good GM is not assuming that every player would think like you do, but learning what your players actually think.
I appreciate that you have your own feelings on "soft GMs," but I am not sure the majority of players would agree with you (I don't either as GM or player). GMing is about a lot more than just raining pain down on PCs and forcing them to live with the consequences. There is a lot of nuance to it. Sometimes, for drama or story's sake, you must fudge. That may seem antithetical to your sense of realism or danger, or whatever, but it should be part of every GM's toolkit.
Being a hardcase has its place. It's another tool in that kit. Being just one or the other is the real danger.
I think it would be wise to consider whether every foe should act like a serious, trained military officer/unit or whether humor, drama, random elements, in-fighting, and all the other fog of war would make for a game that is more fun and more interesting.
Intelligence and wisdom is not the end all be all of how smart/stupid a given creature is. Goblins, at least those presented in the Golarion setting, are about as psychotic as a given species can be and continue to exist. You can call it soft GMing if you like, but I personally think running creatures with an interesting personality is a core skill in being a good GM.
Goblins are one attribute point away from humans with regards to int and wis, but that doesn't make them human...just as dwarves aren't human and elves aren't human and goblins aren't halflings and so on...
Goblins have an Int of 10, and a Wis of 9, about on par with the average human. That means yes, they would act intelligently, and use tactics. They're not stupid.
The average human behaves intelligently, uses tactics, is not stupid?
Expect table variance.
As a gm I think this is just bad gming. Yeah the players made some poor and inexperianced decessions but are they inexperianced players? Even if there vets most players will be under the impression that the encounters are winable. A cr 5 encounter over them is not generaly winable unless the party is overinflated powerwise, high point buy and high magic items. At level 1 players are extremely squishy and really shouldnt even be pited against an epic encounter until they level up and get more hp. While the players made some poor decissions I feel you made the poorest of them all. The CR is just way to high. You could have left better clues, a dead human patrol with obvious goblin tracks indicating 20 strong. An accurate count could have been made with a survival check. You could have split the warband up. A four member scout team sent ahead. And also the warband should be a mix of infantry and archers. Overall it just looks like your out to punish your players andnot really there to provide an enjoyable game, which reflects badly on all us GMs.
These are also level 1 characters. Even with experienced players I tend to hold back until at least level 3. It only takes one attack to drop a level 1 character and those goblins have a lot more than one chance.
As a houserule I also tend to give out a few extra hitpoints to make the first level a little more forgiving or I just start them at level 2.
|
I suppose it depends on what you intended to accomplish with the encounter. If your plan was to make the PCs run away and reconsider their tactics, the encounter is well designed to do that.
If your plan was for the PCs to defeat the goblins and advance the story in some other direction, then the critics are right - too many goblins. Action economy works both ways: Archery plus three times as many dice being rolled equals dead party more often than not.
How you play your goblins is your deal - they can use paramilitary tactics or can spend half their time giggling at dying PCs. Just ensure they're consistent from encounter to encounter.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Just using the information you've given? You do nothing differently, Christopher. You've stated you don't want to cheat, you don't want to fudge. If the encounter was for 15 goblins then that's the encounter.
He's the GM. He decides the encounter.
Hiding behind "Oh that's what the dice said" just makes you look shifty. Own up to the fact that you made, or used, a badly designed encounter.
Just using the information you've given? You do nothing differently, Christopher. You've stated you don't want to cheat, you don't want to fudge. If the encounter was for 15 goblins then that's the encounter. You rolled for encounter distance, you rolled for Perception and the goblins won even with their -1.
That is terrible logic. There were too many goblins. Even if they had gotten a surprise round on the goblins it was likely that they would have lost. The dice are used to get certain results, but the dice don't run the game.
As an example in Kingmaker it is possible to roll high enough on the random encounter chart that you get level 1 characters going up against a troll(s). They are not going to kill the troll, and without horses they won't outrun a trouble so if I as a GM let that TPK take place saying the "dice did it", is not excusable.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
The players knew there were goblins in the area, obviously they should have been adventuring somewhere with weaker monsters instead. Maybe they should have checked out the part of the map labeled "Here There Be Grass That Will Glare At You Disapprovingly" or something. For their hubris they clearly deserved to die without even getting a turn.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
In medieval times most people didn't live to reach the age of 5. In order to be historically accurate I begin each campaign by having each player flip a coin. If tails, their character died as a baby and no longer exists. Nothing I can do about it if you flip tails, I am a slave to the dice. And coins.
~verisimilitude~
Except the two things are not equivalent. One thing is an event that should rely on rolls.
The other is frankly just an excuse to cop-out of responsibility for the encounter you designed.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
I was under the impression this was not a 'designed' encounter (other than there is a sizable encroachment of goblins).
I believed it was a randomly determined group size, distance, chance for surprise etc.
That's a problem in itself, though. The rulebook requires a GM in the mix for a reason - random tables sometimes give bad results. A random encounter table should only serve to assist the GM in making the decision, not make the decision for them, otherwise you end up with situations like the one that happened here. The GM should be looking at the rolled encounter and deciding whether it is suitable for the group or not (and arguably, they should be doing that for all encounters, not just the random ones.)
There's a big difference between preferring to play Rules-as-written and ignoring your responsibilities as GM.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
You mistakenly assume that a goblin warband of 15 goblins who think tactically is an appropriate encounter for a first-level party. Real gaming quickly demonstrates otherwise. Your question is what to do to prevent a rotten gaming experience without fudging the dice rolls, right?
You redesign the encounter on the fly.
First, half the goblins lose their bows during the surprise round. It was not a fully-equipped warband.
Second, point out to the party that while they had not paid much attention to the immediate terrain, now everyone in the party notices the fallen tree 10 feet away that could provide cover from the archers.
Third, you give the party another Perception roll to count the goblins now that the warband has revealed its location. 15 goblins and the party is already injured? If the party does not dive for cover, they deserve their fate.
The encounter changes its nature from trying to defeat the goblins to trying to escape the goblins. That can still be fun, despite the humiliation.
It seems players want verisimilitude—until such becomes a genuine threat to their characters.
Do you have a quote from his players saying this. With that aside most of us dont even agree on what that means in game because the level and type of acceptable realism vs "handwave it because it is a game" varies by person and group.
|
|
Another thing to consider, an encounter doesn't have to be a straight fight or ambush.
If our Kingmaker GM ran like you suggested Pizza Lord, we would have TPKed flat out when 4 trolls got rolled. Thankfully our GM played them as a clearly telegraphed threat that we could avoid.
Neither we nor the GM would have particularly enjoyed our entire campaign being wiped because of a single random encounter roll. Thus, arbitration.
That was simply meant to be pithy, sarcastic, and amusing, wraithstrike, not some hugely insightful contribution to the discussion. Apologies if I didn't make that clear enough. Evidently it's my word of the week, too. I think some in another thread are likely sick of it. :)
I think any DM can err in what he throws at a party. Adamantine Dragon suggests conducting opposition with the appropriate tactical acumen, Mathmuse talks about extemporaneous adjustments to the encounter and I mentioned in-story reasons to relent/spare the player characters. I think any of these could prove quite helpful.
oops..Misunderstanding happen...its cool. :)
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
Let's say, I don't know, the Halfling wizard stupidly gets separated from his dwarf party in the woods. You've rolled 3 trolls. Said Halfling is on his own, armed poorly and is a, let's say...first level rogue.
Running the trolls completely by the book they'd be well hidden in the woods. They'd get a surprise round, tear the rogue apart, and then consume him quietly. In a particularly famous book however, the "GM" decided the trolls should be out in the open for the rogue to sneak up on them and, when he DID get caught, he was able to talk to them long enough to get rescued.
Bilbo Baggins, by PF rules and "strategy" employed by intelligent, sentient enemies, should have died hours after leaving Bag End.
All's I'm saying is that yes you can have verisimilitude, and fate (of the dice) and all that, but you ALSO need a spark of creativity to run these games. Your friends showed up to have a good time, participate in a game and enjoy themselves. They didn't show up to watch you roll some dice, tell them their characters all died, and then start over.
Just because the dice say something, that doesn't inevitably lead to the next thing. That's not fudging, that's gaming.
You rolled the encounter, you rolled encounter distance, and then you made perception checks. Once that was done...YOU, the GM, made ALL the decisions. Some GM's would've had the goblins freak since the adventurers sauntering overconfidently into range of their bows may have been 10th level heroes. Other GM's might have had them try to capture the PCs, or act in a disorganized manner and only loosing a couple warning shots. Still OTHER GM's may have not even gotten that far; having rolled 15 goblins they might've split it into 5 sets of 3 goblins each, all within hearing distance of one another, skulking about to set the town on fire.
YOU, clh, decided that all 15 moved with military precision and purpose, training their bows unerringly on the PCs and beginning a battle that mathematically was WELL beyond what they were capable of handling. Sure, had luck been on their side they might've survived. But the laws of averages say that, attacking from surprise against flat-footed opponents of level 1, they had a better-than-50% chance of hitting (+8 vs avg FF AC of 13) and dealing 2.5 avg damage/hit. If 8 of 10 shots hit w/those odds, then 12 shots on avg would have hit the party. If you figure 4 PCs, that means 3 hits/PC, for 7.5 HP per person.
Volley 1: arcanist unconscious or nearly there; rogue-type and cleric type severely wounded; fighter-type at half HP
Volley 2: if goblins win initiative...arcanist dead; rogue-type and cleric-type dead; fighter-type Staggered
The GM decided this outcome. The dice only provided the opportunity. I've done it, unleashing a ghost on my players that I thought they were ready for. But in that instance I worked in a glitch; a momentary lapse where the ghost would stop all malicious action and give the party a chance to flee. The party did eventually flee but not until after the poor cleric lost her Animal Companion that she'd JUST gotten.
I'm sure this has happened to other GMs before us C-battery; it'll happen to others after us. But we GMs need to acknowledge that the dice only have SO much control over the game; at the end of the day it's on US to decide how it turns out. GMs wield great power, and if all those years reading comics taught me ANYTHING, it's that "With great power, comes great responsibility"
Thank you Stan Lee, and your many wonderful creations, for trying to help us be better than we are!
Now then The Haze, we all fall down, we all topple our games once in a while. It's not how we stumble that defines us as GMs; it's how we rise.
Rise up, Master C. Rise up and say: "I'm not fudging dice, but I'm not killing my players' party at random either." Rise up and admit that YOU decided to have the goblins attack in such a manner and that, if your players didn't have any fun getting killed, that's on you. Then rise up and make the decision to game consciously, with your players' feelings in mind. You don't have to fudge the dice to have a good time; your players know this and they trust you. You aren't a wuss or cheap if you "let" them win once in a while either.
Rise up Chris; rise up.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Look, logically Bone Devils aren't only going to fight high-level characters. They exist, so there is a chance for one to happen upon the party. And if they do, they're not just going to go, "Oh, sorry, you're only first-level, I'd better leave you unharmed until you've gained several more levels," they're going to kill you. If they players can't handle a couple of CR9 outsiders, then it's really their fault, I'm not going to fudge things or actually provide a fun playable game or anything.