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Why would it encourage interparty conflict any more than any other magic item would? If the party's loot rules decide that an arcanist is awarded a potion of a level 3 spell, what do they care what he does with it? He can drink it or he can use it for his arcane reservoir, why would they care?
Because not every item distributed among the party is for solely personal use.
Most effective groups have a policy of giving things to the person who can make most use of it, but the understanding is that they will be using those items in the most effective way, for the benefit of everyone.Even if the item is for personal use, such as a potion.
How many times do cure potions get used as first aid kits for another person? You may expect to be repaid for it, but even so, there's a big difference between something that's yours to do with as you wish, and something that's actually 'party treasure, but you're being allowed to look after it'.
Ensuring everyone has a cure potion, a fly potion, energy resistance, ability score restoration, or any of the other essentials is a good idea, to cover emergencies, or if they get separated from the others.
It's insurance, to allow the casters to prepare other spells.
If an emergency occurs, and the party has to flee, or protect themselves from danger, they want to hear everyone sticking to the plan, downing their potion, and getting on with the encounter.
They don't want to hear the Arcanist bleating that he hasn't got a potion anymore...can somebody help meeeee...
Because that forces someone else, someone who did follow the plan, to break off what they're doing, and cast their limited resources, instead of protecting themselves. Or after they've protected themselves, which means they aren't following the rest of the plan, throwing their contribution out of synch.
"Where's our Haste?"
"Sorry, I had to cast resist fire on idiot boy, here."
"Forget that, we're being outnumbered,...no, can't wait, going to have to move to block that door."
"But you'll be out of range."
"Can't be helped. I'm gonna have to split too. I need to be up on that ledge, multishotting. Can't wait for your Haste."
"Curse you, potion-waster! Now see what you've done."
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** spoiler omitted **What you described was not the experience we witnessed. Our GM was well prepared too, as he ran this module for our PFS group some months ago.
** spoiler omitted **...
There is a lot of problems with that encounter and how it was run. But do you guys really use wish to do somthing like that? I meen duplicate every Spell in the book yes ok. But just invent a modern science super hero style death for several enemies. I dont know a GM that wont laugh me out if i try that.
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There is a lot of problems with that encounter and how it was run. But do you guys really use wish to do somthing like that? I meen duplicate every Spell in the book yes ok. But just invent a modern science super hero style death for several enemies. I dont know a GM that wont laugh me out if i try that.
We were doing a one shot high level test run of the new classes, so there was a lot more dicking around than is usual. So typically no, our Arcanist was just trying hard to strut his stuff. But even though it is a head shaking use of wish, it is unfortunately directly in line with one of it's "no chance of error" lines of option (reprinted here for your convenience)
"Transport travelers. A wish can lift one creature per caster level from anywhere on any plane and place those creatures anywhere else on any plane regardless of local conditions. An unwilling target gets a Will save to negate the effect, and spell resistance (if any) applies."
Some of us wanted to test out some of the other classes at high level as well, so we're taking another stab at it with the newfound knowledge of immediate/swift action interaction. Our Arcanist is swapping a few spells out, but is largely using the same build again (minus trying to toy with Karzoug).
I think they mean using the Consume Magic Items exploit to replenish the Arcane Reservoir...
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I don't know if people are aware of this, but Runestones of Power can't be used to power your Arcane pool. They specifically say "Once per day, a spontaneous caster can draw upon a runestone of power to cast a spell — doing so is part of the spellcasting action, and expends that runestone’s power for the day rather than one of the spellcaster’s actual spell slots for the day."
Since the Runestone doesn't actually refresh you spell slot, you can't then sacrifice that spell slot to regain Arcane points. You cast the using the Runestone directly, so it never actually grants you a spell slot to sacrifice for points.
Using Runestones to cast spells does mean that you can sacrifice the spell slot you would have used, of course, so it achieves similar results. I just want to make sure people realize that once you're out of real spell slots, you can't actually use your Runestones to replenish your Arcane pool.
I'm using the latter interpretation, that having a Runestone gives the Arcanist more freedom to choose whether he blows his normal slots on AR points, and I believe others are, too.
But yes, that does need to be specified, given the way some players read abilities in the most beneficial way possible to them.I'm also pre-empting there being some new item introduced that works as a battery for the AR pool (and only the AR pool) directly. How such a thing would be priced, I've no idea, though having it cost similar to a Runestone seems likely.
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Guys, in a normal home campaign Consume Magic Items might be bad, but there are campaigns in which it's quite good:
1) Games without unfettered access to magic item markets or crafting. In such games, Runestones won't necessarily be available and many scrolls, potions, or wands found will be awful and largely unsellable.
2) Pathfinder Society. In PFS, found treasure just disappears at the end of the scenario if you don't use it and doesn't really affect how much gold you earn normally, so burning it up beforehand doesn't really affect anything. Also, staves begin each session fully charged, meaning one good staff will translate into a teeming reservoir every single game.
As GMs and experienced players, we just have to make sure we warn newer players of its dangers when they're not involved in a game like either of the above.
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I think the consume exploits should be splittet up so there was several different effects that could be gained by absorbing a given magic item type. Like bonus on damage if you absorb a weapons propertyes and so on. If you are then alive and well after the figth you can give back the weapon its powers.
I have no idea how to scale the power gained by the absorbing but it would be different and cool without destroying the loot. :)
And i still think that they need only 6 Spell levels and a greater focus on the magic manipulation stuff. Both to differantiate from the wizard and so the exploits can be really good without destroying game balance.
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2) Pathfinder Society. In PFS, found treasure just disappears at the end of the scenario if you don't use it and doesn't really affect how much gold you earn normally, so burning it up beforehand doesn't really affect anything. Also, staves begin each session fully charged, meaning one good staff will translate into a teeming reservoir every single game.
Cue endless threads arguing about crossing things off of a chronicle when the arcanist Consumes it. Even more potential for conflict there. I don't think that staves are a problem because they are not viable purchases at the levels that PFS is limited to.
I do agree that the arcanist becomes stronger outside of RAW wealth rules, although house rules should not be a consideration when developing a class. Not even PFS house rules.
There is a lot of problems with that encounter and how it was run. But do you guys really use wish to do somthing like that? I meen duplicate every Spell in the book yes ok. But just invent a modern science super hero style death for several enemies. I dont know a GM that wont laugh me out if i try that.We were doing a one shot high level test run of the new classes, so there was a lot more dicking around than is usual. So typically no, our Arcanist was just trying hard to strut his stuff. But even though it is a head shaking use of wish, it is unfortunately directly in line with one of it's "no chance of error" lines of option (reprinted here for your convenience)
"Transport travelers. A wish can lift one creature per caster level from anywhere on any plane and place those creatures anywhere else on any plane regardless of local conditions. An unwilling target gets a Will save to negate the effect, and spell resistance (if any) applies."
Some of us wanted to test out some of the other classes at high level as well, so we're taking another stab at it with the newfound knowledge of immediate/swift action interaction. Our Arcanist is swapping a few spells out, but is largely using the same build again (minus trying to toy with Karzoug).
Ok. Good of you to post the entire story it sounded a bit weird before we knew all the details.
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I don't think that staves are a problem because they are not viable purchases at the levels that PFS is limited to.
Staff of Minor Arcana is 8000gp and recharges 10 arcane points every PFS game session. Staff of Swarming Insects is 22,800gp and recharges 20. These are highly affordable PFS options. Who cares what the spells do? 20 points is a ton of utility for 22K.
The Arcanist needs more utility exploits.
This would be cool. Jason mentions that this is only a sample list; perhaps utility exploits weren't included since the abilities most likely to see use in a playtest (and those most in need of balancing) are the combat exploits?
I don't think that staves are a problem because they are not viable purchases at the levels that PFS is limited to.Staff of Minor Arcana is 8000gp and recharges 10 arcane points every PFS game session. Staff of Swarming Insects is 22,800gp and recharges 20. These are highly affordable PFS options. Who cares what the spells do? 20 points is a ton of utility for 22K.
Wow, nice find. Can't decide if good or bad...
Interesting. Let me consider that more closely.
The 8k staff is certainly a good buy since it will top your AR up to full through 4th level. You need 22 Fame to buy an 8000gp item so at the absolute earliest that is 11XP. Thus an arcanist has a sweet spot of four scenarios at the tail end of level 3 and through level 4 that they can go through with a full AR. Then by level 5 they would drain the staff to get up to 14/18 points.
Level 6 is the earliest that they can possibly buy the 22K staff by fame and with both staves they can keep their AR topped up each scenario for the rest of their carrer. That certainly looks almost too good to be true.
That is just judging by the fame scores however. Looking at WBL the earliest that the arcanist can really afford the 8000gp staff (assuming it represents 1/3 of their wealth which is is lot) is somewhere between 7th and 8th level. Then with the same assumptions the arcanist can only afford the second staff somewhere in the middle of 11th level, making it basically irrelevant for PFS play. Now these numbers should probably be tweaked down since just about every PFS character I have seen is over WBL by at least a reasonable margin.
So if I did that analysis right, which is not a foregone conclusion given that is is 1 AM, I feel that my gut feeling was right and while the staff maybe a good option, it is not as powerful as it seems for the majority of a PFS arcanist's career.
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Cue endless threads arguing about crossing things off of a chronicle when the arcanist Consumes it. Even more potential for conflict there. I don't think that staves are a problem because they are not viable purchases at the levels that PFS is limited to.
I do agree that the arcanist becomes stronger outside of RAW wealth rules, although house rules should not be a consideration when developing a class. Not even PFS house rules.
Why would there be any need to cross consumed potions off the chronicle sheet?
No more so, than if a PC drinks it.
In PFS, there's no penalty for using consumables found during the scenario; it's discovering them that unlocks them on the chronicle.
You can drink them, drain them, give them as bribes, or pour them down the sink, and they're waiting on your chronicle list for future purchase, whenever you want.
Why would there be any need to cross consumed potions off the chronicle sheet?
There shouldn't be except that I have seen DMs cross of scrolls that the BBEG used when giving chronicle sheets out. I once even experienced a DM who wanted to cross off ammunition that an enemy had used. There would be both enough honest confusion and bad DMs who have a problem with the arcanist that it will happen.
I don't think that staves are a problem because they are not viable purchases at the levels that PFS is limited to.Staff of Minor Arcana is 8000gp and recharges 10 arcane points every PFS game session. Staff of Swarming Insects is 22,800gp and recharges 20. These are highly affordable PFS options. Who cares what the spells do? 20 points is a ton of utility for 22K.Wow, nice find. Can't decide if good or bad...Interesting. Let me consider that more closely.
The 8k staff is certainly a good buy since it will top your AR up to full through 4th level. You need 22 Fame to buy an 8000gp item so at the absolute earliest that is 11XP. Thus an arcanist has a sweet spot of four scenarios at the tail end of level 3 and through level 4 that they can go through with a full AR. Then by level 5 they would drain the staff to get up to 14/18 points.
Level 6 is the earliest that they can possibly buy the 22K staff by fame and with both staves they can keep their AR topped up each scenario for the rest of their carrer. That certainly looks almost too good to be true.
That is just judging by the fame scores however. Looking at WBL the earliest that the arcanist can really afford the 8000gp staff (assuming it represents 1/3 of their wealth which is is lot) is somewhere between 7th and 8th level. Then with the same assumptions the arcanist can only afford the second staff somewhere in the middle of 11th level, making it basically irrelevant for PFS play. Now these numbers should probably be tweaked down since just about every PFS character I have seen is over WBL by at least a reasonable margin.
So if I did that analysis right, which is not a foregone conclusion given that is is 1 AM, I feel that my gut feeling was right and while the staff maybe a good option, it is not as powerful as it seems for the majority of a PFS arcanist's career.
Why spend 3x as much gold to only get 2x as many arcane reservoir points? Just buy another Staff of Minor Arcana. Double the points. I feel a nerf coming for this ability...
Or a change to the PFS rules. Kinda doubt that tho
The more I've thought about this guy, the happier I have been with him. Less spells than a wizard (!), doesn't have the hammering ability that a sorc does, doesn't have the trump card that is Arcane Bonded Object or extra set of actions (although, being a partially Cha based class, Eldritch Heritage (Arcane) will probably be quite popular)...
Mostly minor tweaks needed at this point, and a bit more reliance on Cha for all abilities.
And future-proofing the ability to regain arcane reservoir points.
Staff of Minor Arcana is 8000gp and recharges 10 arcane points every PFS game session.So maybe I'm missing something since I don't play PFS, but wouldn't the staff still be drained for the next scenario? Or does everything "refresh"?
Regardless, we have established that balancing to PFS is not really reasonable, and using that time in regular play wouldn't work very well because you would have to take ten days to refill it before you could drain it again. Obviously you don't have to wait the full ten days but you wouldn't get the full 10 charges from it otherwise. You can't cycle staves, and consumables are a waste of resources. Currently it is a neat concept, but fall short of what is needed to make it a playable option.
Time between PFS scenarios is undefined and you generally everything refreshes. 1/week abilities are usable again, you can teach an animal a trick or general purpose, you can retrain, etc. Since you don't just set out on your next scenario right away, you spend the next 10 days recharging your staff before your next scenario.
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Staff of Minor Arcana is 8000gp and recharges 10 arcane points every PFS game session.So maybe I'm missing something since I don't play PFS, but wouldn't the staff still be drained for the next scenario? Or does everything "refresh"?
Between scenarios, an undefined amount of time passes; enough for all ability damage and HP damage (and anything else that heals over time) to be cured, enough for any abilities with frequencies of less than 1/day (such as 1/week or whatever) to refresh, and enough for you to fully recharge your staves (if you're capable of charging them at all).
2) Pathfinder Society. In PFS, found treasure just disappears at the end of the scenario if you don't use it and doesn't really affect how much gold you earn normally, so burning it up beforehand doesn't really affect anything. Also, staves begin each session fully charged, meaning one good staff will translate into a teeming reservoir every single game.Cue endless threads arguing about crossing things off of a chronicle when the arcanist Consumes it. Even more potential for conflict there. I don't think that staves are a problem because they are not viable purchases at the levels that PFS is limited to.
I do agree that the arcanist becomes stronger outside of RAW wealth rules, although house rules should not be a consideration when developing a class. Not even PFS house rules.
All data is useful. There isn't really a baseline for how the game is played. In fact I'd say PFS rules hold quite a bit of weight considering the number of folks that play it. Also note that the Devs specifically asked folks to try out the ACG classes in PFS.
So how the Arcanist functions in a grand number of circumstances is very useful to us. Whether it is a high magic or low magic game. Whether WBL guidelines are being adhered to. Or whether or not the PCs have every magic item available to them.
What kind of characters are people thinking about for this?
I'm looking at the idea of an Abjuration specialist who focuses on Dispelling, Dismissal, and the like. A magic defuser.
But the +CL from Potent Magic is also pretty tempting for Evocation.
Let's see some builds!
What kind of characters are people thinking about for this?
I'm looking at the idea of an Abjuration specialist who focuses on Dispelling, Dismissal, and the like. A magic defuser.
But the +CL from Potent Magic is also pretty tempting for Evocation.
Let's see some builds!
As in something I'd actually play? I was thinking about doing an Arcanist 5/Shadowcraft Mage 3, picking Metamixing, Potent Magic, and Counterspell for my exploits (deliberately avoiding Disruptive Touch and Spell Tinkering because they're insane). I've got 4th level spells, and I get all the goodness of playing a spontaneous shadowcrafter (including metamagic specialist!) AND all the goodies of playing a prepared shadowcrafter, without having to blow feats on preferred spell/greater spell specialization. Easily the second-best shadowcraft mage build you can pull off at this level, only beaten by DMM: Heighten nonsense.
High INT increases their spell slots per day as normal for a spont caster.
Why have no way to increase spells per day ?
No high int, no high cha, nothing ?
Per the playtest document:
An arcanist can only cast a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. Her base daily spell allotment is given on Table 1–1. In addition, she receives bonus spells per day if she has a high Intelligence score (see Table 1–3 in the Core Rulebook)
there ya go...
-- david
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What kind of characters are people thinking about for this?
I'm looking at the idea of an Abjuration specialist who focuses on Dispelling, Dismissal, and the like. A magic defuser.
But the +CL from Potent Magic is also pretty tempting for Evocation.
Let's see some builds!
Honestly? I've just agreed to a trade for an undine PFS race boon. Given that I used to play Magic: the Gathering and am also a fan of Avatar: the Last Airbender—both of which associate water with an ability to manipulate, redirect, and so forth—an undine arcanist who's good at screwing with magic at a fundamental level sounds really appealing, despite the stats being a nightmare. (God forbid an investment in CHA should become unavoidable...)
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Why have no way to increase spells per day ?
No high int, no high cha, nothing ?Per the playtest document:
An arcanist can only cast a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. Her base daily spell allotment is given on Table 1–1. In addition, she receives bonus spells per day if she has a high Intelligence score (see Table 1–3 in the Core Rulebook)
there ya go...
-- david
Ahh k I must have an old version
i finally figured out what the arcanist reminds me of. The old archmage prestige from 3.5. i think that could be mined for a few exploits yet as well. such as reshaping AoEs and such.
Ah so as is the arcanist is fairly powerful in PFS....however it is very much not so in regular play. I do think it should be noted how it works in PFS, but arcanist should not be nerfed because of PFS play options.Time between PFS scenarios is undefined and you generally everything refreshes. 1/week abilities are usable again, you can teach an animal a trick or general purpose, you can retrain, etc. Since you don't just set out on your next scenario right away, you spend the next 10 days recharging your staff before your next scenario.Staff of Minor Arcana is 8000gp and recharges 10 arcane points every PFS game session.So maybe I'm missing something since I don't play PFS, but wouldn't the staff still be drained for the next scenario? Or does everything "refresh"?
Regardless, we have established that balancing to PFS is not really reasonable, and using that time in regular play wouldn't work very well because you would have to take ten days to refill it before you could drain it again. Obviously you don't have to wait the full ten days but you wouldn't get the full 10 charges from it otherwise. You can't cycle staves, and consumables are a waste of resources. Currently it is a neat concept, but fall short of what is needed to make it a playable option.
I am willing to call all these revelations as working as intended.
8k will ALSO buy 8 pearls of power. That is 8 level 1 spells every DAY (which becomes 8 AR points).
Ah so as is the arcanist is fairly powerful in PFS....however it is very much not so in regular play. I do think it should be noted how it works in PFS, but arcanist should not be nerfed because of PFS play options.Time between PFS scenarios is undefined and you generally everything refreshes. 1/week abilities are usable again, you can teach an animal a trick or general purpose, you can retrain, etc. Since you don't just set out on your next scenario right away, you spend the next 10 days recharging your staff before your next scenario.Staff of Minor Arcana is 8000gp and recharges 10 arcane points every PFS game session.So maybe I'm missing something since I don't play PFS, but wouldn't the staff still be drained for the next scenario? Or does everything "refresh"?
Regardless, we have established that balancing to PFS is not really reasonable, and using that time in regular play wouldn't work very well because you would have to take ten days to refill it before you could drain it again. Obviously you don't have to wait the full ten days but you wouldn't get the full 10 charges from it otherwise. You can't cycle staves, and consumables are a waste of resources. Currently it is a neat concept, but fall short of what is needed to make it a playable option.
I am willing to call all these revelations as working as intended.
8k will ALSO buy 8 pearls of power. That is 8 level 1 spells every DAY (which becomes 8 AR points).
The wording in Pearl of power will need to chance for that to be gennerally aceptet i guess:)
8k will ALSO buy 8 pearls of power. That is 8 level 1 spells every DAY (which becomes 8 AR points).A Pearl of Power doesn't help an Arcanist as written. Specifically, it doesn't refresh a spell slot, it just re-prepares a spell for you: "The spell is then prepared again, just as if it had not been cast." An Arcanist has a separate set of prepared spells and spells per day, and their prepared spells don't work like a Wizard's. So while you could technically use a Pearl of Power as an Arcanist, preparing a spell you've already prepared has absolutely no benefit for you, since having the same spell prepared twice gives you nothing. And since it doesn't actually refresh your spells per day in any way, you also can't use it to power your Arcane pool.
I love the Arcanist, but it is causing a lot of confusion regarding certain magic items and feats. There'll need to be a decent amount of clarification before this class sees its final version. While item and feat and whatever descriptions could change, I see it as more likely that the Arcanist will just get a list of specific clarifications on how it interacts with existing elements of the game.
Haha oh wow. I forgot about that. Did paizo never print a Pathfinder version of Memento Magica (or whatever that Sorceror pearl equivalent was called)?
I guess I have been just pretending that existed since the game's inception.
8k will ALSO buy 8 pearls of power. That is 8 level 1 spells every DAY (which becomes 8 AR points).A Pearl of Power doesn't help an Arcanist as written. Specifically, it doesn't refresh a spell slot, it just re-prepares a spell for you: "The spell is then prepared again, just as if it had not been cast." An Arcanist has a separate set of prepared spells and spells per day, and their prepared spells don't work like a Wizard's. So while you could technically use a Pearl of Power as an Arcanist, preparing a spell you've already prepared has absolutely no benefit for you, since having the same spell prepared twice gives you nothing. And since it doesn't actually refresh your spells per day in any way, you also can't use it to power your Arcane pool.
I love the Arcanist, but it is causing a lot of confusion regarding certain magic items and feats. There'll need to be a decent amount of clarification before this class sees its final version. While item and feat and whatever descriptions could change, I see it as more likely that the Arcanist will just get a list of specific clarifications on how it interacts with existing elements of the game.
Haha oh wow. I forgot about that. Did paizo never print a Pathfinder version of Memento Magica (or whatever that Sorceror pearl equivalent was called)?
I guess I have been just pretending that existed since the game's inception.
8k will ALSO buy 8 pearls of power. That is 8 level 1 spells every DAY (which becomes 8 AR points).A Pearl of Power doesn't help an Arcanist as written. Specifically, it doesn't refresh a spell slot, it just re-prepares a spell for you: "The spell is then prepared again, just as if it had not been cast." An Arcanist has a separate set of prepared spells and spells per day, and their prepared spells don't work like a Wizard's. So while you could technically use a Pearl of Power as an Arcanist, preparing a spell you've already prepared has absolutely no benefit for you, since having the same spell prepared twice gives you nothing. And since it doesn't actually refresh your spells per day in any way, you also can't use it to power your Arcane pool.
I love the Arcanist, but it is causing a lot of confusion regarding certain magic items and feats. There'll need to be a decent amount of clarification before this class sees its final version. While item and feat and whatever descriptions could change, I see it as more likely that the Arcanist will just get a list of specific clarifications on how it interacts with existing elements of the game.
Haha oh wow. I forgot about that. Did paizo never print a Pathfinder version of Memento Magica (or whatever that Sorceror pearl equivalent was called)?
I guess I have been just pretending that existed since the game's inception.
Its called a Runestone of Power.
EDIT: GAH NINJA'D.
Runestones of Power.8k will ALSO buy 8 pearls of power. That is 8 level 1 spells every DAY (which becomes 8 AR points).A Pearl of Power doesn't help an Arcanist as written. Specifically, it doesn't refresh a spell slot, it just re-prepares a spell for you: "The spell is then prepared again, just as if it had not been cast." An Arcanist has a separate set of prepared spells and spells per day, and their prepared spells don't work like a Wizard's. So while you could technically use a Pearl of Power as an Arcanist, preparing a spell you've already prepared has absolutely no benefit for you, since having the same spell prepared twice gives you nothing. And since it doesn't actually refresh your spells per day in any way, you also can't use it to power your Arcane pool.
I love the Arcanist, but it is causing a lot of confusion regarding certain magic items and feats. There'll need to be a decent amount of clarification before this class sees its final version. While item and feat and whatever descriptions could change, I see it as more likely that the Arcanist will just get a list of specific clarifications on how it interacts with existing elements of the game.
Haha oh wow. I forgot about that. Did paizo never print a Pathfinder version of Memento Magica (or whatever that Sorceror pearl equivalent was called)?
I guess I have been just pretending that existed since the game's inception.
Well, there you go. So that is 4 type-1 runestones of power for 8k so that will get you the equivalent of 4 AR points per day (without the exploit!) to that one staff's 10 points a week.
Nothing is blowing my mind here.
And thanks guys!
Runestones of Power.8k will ALSO buy 8 pearls of power. That is 8 level 1 spells every DAY (which becomes 8 AR points).A Pearl of Power doesn't help an Arcanist as written. Specifically, it doesn't refresh a spell slot, it just re-prepares a spell for you: "The spell is then prepared again, just as if it had not been cast." An Arcanist has a separate set of prepared spells and spells per day, and their prepared spells don't work like a Wizard's. So while you could technically use a Pearl of Power as an Arcanist, preparing a spell you've already prepared has absolutely no benefit for you, since having the same spell prepared twice gives you nothing. And since it doesn't actually refresh your spells per day in any way, you also can't use it to power your Arcane pool.
I love the Arcanist, but it is causing a lot of confusion regarding certain magic items and feats. There'll need to be a decent amount of clarification before this class sees its final version. While item and feat and whatever descriptions could change, I see it as more likely that the Arcanist will just get a list of specific clarifications on how it interacts with existing elements of the game.
Haha oh wow. I forgot about that. Did paizo never print a Pathfinder version of Memento Magica (or whatever that Sorceror pearl equivalent was called)?
I guess I have been just pretending that existed since the game's inception.
Well, there you go. So that is 4 type-1 runestones of power for 8k so that will get you the equivalent of 4 AR points per day (without the exploit!) to that one staff's 10 points a week.
Nothing is blowing my mind here.
And thanks guys!
Consider the fact that Craft Staff is an 11th level feat, while Craft Wondrous is a 3rd level feat. This means you could craft your own Runestones for 1,000 gp, meaning you get 8 AR points for the price of that staff.
Granted, this is only an option outside of PFS or games where GM's don't heavily restrict Crafting feats.
[Edit] To clarify, that's 8 AR points that are renewed each day, without expending any other resources. Meanwhile, the staff requires the Arcanist to spend 1 spell slot each day to recharge that Staff, so it takes 10 days to recharge the staff.
Personally, I think buying 4 Runestones is more efficient than purchasing 1 staff is, and crafting your own Runestones is just hands down the better choice.
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This is still an incredibly powerful class. I do like the increased focus on Charisma (slightly weaker stat than Int) but still not sold on the Arcanist power level being higher than other classes.
I also really like the Arcanist Exploit ability. I would like to see the elemental exploit beefed up a little. I would also think the Arcane Reservoir should be more tied to Charisma. This might help diversify the class stats more.
Consider the fact that Craft Staff is an 11th level feat, while Craft Wondrous is a 3rd level feat. This means you could craft your own Runestones for 1,000 gp, meaning you get 8 AR points for the price of that staff.Granted, this is only an option outside of PFS or games where GM's don't heavily restrict Crafting feats.
Too true. Maybe this whole line of discussion will necessitate a reworking of the Arcane Reservoir mechanic?
Like: have each level of spell grant points equal to 2N-1.
So:
1st gives 1 point
2nd gives 3 points
3rd gives 5 points
4th gives 7 points
5th gives 9 points
6th gives 11 points
7th gives 13 points
8th gives 15 points
9th gives 17 points
Then the size of the reservoir and costs of powers is adjusted accordingly:
Arcana pool equal to level.
Then increase the costs of powers accordingly.
This would also give the designers latitude to use point cost to balance exploits. Under the algebra above, the counter-spell exploit (which is melting people's minds) could cost a number of arcana points to activate equal to the level of the spell.
Blasts can stay one point forever because they are more or less worthless OR have their power scale with the points invested (gaaaaasp maybe this is sounding like old psionics rules).
The DC boosts, spontaneous metamagic application and the CL boost could cost 1/2 spell (min 1) to apply to a spell. (level 1, 2, and 3 would all cost 1 point to empower, then 4 and 5 costs 2, 6 and 7 costs 3 and 8 and 9 cost 4).
And hell: maybe just give them their level 20 deal earlier as an exploit but have it cost 2*spell level to activate (essentially letting the the arcanist cast an N+1 level spell for the cost of a spell of that level and a 2nd level spell as well. But! This will usually entirely empty the Arcanist's reservoir to cast their highest level spell so they would have to take standard actions later to refill their spell pool).
People (especially game designers) have any thoughts?
Consider the fact that Craft Staff is an 11th level feat, while Craft Wondrous is a 3rd level feat. This means you could craft your own Runestones for 1,000 gp, meaning you get 8 AR points for the price of that staff.Granted, this is only an option outside of PFS or games where GM's don't heavily restrict Crafting feats.
Too true. Maybe this whole line of discussion will necessitate a reworking of the Arcane Reservoir mechanic?
Like: have each level of spell grant points equal to 2N-1.
So:
1st gives 1 point
2nd gives 3 points
3rd gives 5 points
4th gives 7 points
5th gives 9 points
6th gives 11 points
7th gives 13 points
8th gives 15 points
9th gives 17 pointsThen the size of the reservoir and costs of powers is adjusted accordingly:
Arcana pool equal to level.Then increase the costs of powers accordingly.
This would also give the designers latitude to use point cost to balance exploits. Under the algebra above, the counter-spell exploit (which is melting people's minds) could cost a number of arcana points to activate equal to the level of the spell.
Blasts can stay one point forever because they are more or less worthless OR have their power scale with the points invested (gaaaaasp maybe this is sounding like old psionics rules).
The DC boosts, spontaneous metamagic application and the CL boost could cost 1/2 spell (min 1) to apply to a spell. (level 1, 2, and 3 would all cost 1 point to empower, then 4 and 5 costs 2, 6 and 7 costs 3 and 8 and 9 cost 4).
And hell: maybe just give them their level 20 deal earlier as an exploit but have it cost 2*spell level to activate (essentially letting the the arcanist cast an N+1 level spell for the cost of a spell of that level and a 2nd level spell as well. But! This will usually entirely empty the Arcanist's reservoir to cast their highest level spell so they would have to take standard actions later to refill their spell pool).
People (especially game designers) have any thoughts?
For completeness on the exploit for just getting a level 9 spell for 18 AR points: let us assume we will still be able to buy arcane reservoir points at a rate of 2k gp a pop and a standard action. The level 9 spell would therefore cost 36k gp (which is a huge steal at the normal rate of 162,000 gp) AND 9 standard actions (which is a major counter balance in my mind since it means that it will only be used once a fight)
So at the extreme (of a level 9 spell), 36k gp would buy you an extra 9th level spell per encounter. However, that also means all your arcana points are gone, making all your neat exploits worthless until you spend actions to refill it.
Maaaaaaybe it should be 2*spell level + 2 to cast a spell that way.
That way the level 9 spell costs 40k an encounter AND can only be accessed at level 20 (while the 8th is accessible at the 9th level for point return of a level 9 spell+1). Or maybe the existence of the these runes just calls for an even more aggressive schedule increase than I even just recommended (have the pool be 2+1.5*arcanist level and the retuned points from a spell be 3N-1 for a progression of 2 points for a level 1 spell to 26 for a level 9 spell).
Or maybe I have talked myself out of the points for a spell idea.
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This is very much a sidebar at this point, but I did want to come back and address this bit.
there's the very real problem of artifact-level Ioun stones being suppressed by a mage's disjunction - and considering the things those ioun stones affected, it's another pretty serious flaw with the scenario as presented.Seeker of Secrets clarifies that such ioun stones are, in fact, not artifacts. They bear a caster level of 12th just like all the others, requirements to create them, as well as market price (24k each for the staking stat stones for example). Of course if one was not familiar with that book, then they'd never know that, so it's a valid concern to raise.
Seekers of Secrets came out in 2009, while the RotRL Anniversary Edition came out in 2012. In RotRL AE, they're artifacts; since that's the latest source, I'm sticking with it. (Even setting aside that practically everything in SoS has been retconned at this point...)
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I believe the Arcanist pool is being looked at in a way that is skewed toward the want of a mana points mechanic. I, however, want to stay away from this Psionic mistake as much as possible.
I believe an alternative way to refuel points needs to be looked at, or having the point accumulate through actions as Grit has done. I still believe a higher starting value is needed. Let's face it, the current total with the limited way to gain more points makes the use of the Exploits a more guarded resource than the spells that are very few at low levels.
Another option that has been offered is ripe for abuse, which is having the magic items be suppressed instead of destroyed. Having items specifically for this over and over again is something that I think the developers want to avoid.
Having powers use the Ki principle (as long as you have a point, use...) doesn't really fit with the Arcanist fluff.
The elemental powers need to have the Saving Throw negate the secondary effect, not halve the damage.
My proposal would be to have the pool only be 2x the Arcanist level, gaining 2 points plus 2 for every three levels ( 2 at 1st, 4 at 3rd, 6 at 6th and so on) and have Greater Exploits would cost two points. I would scrap the item chew and keep the spell slot burn for points, getting points equal to the level spell slot spent. I am just not sure what to use in place of Item Destruction, or what actions to have rejuvenate points.
Or, having a thought, keep the structure the same but have points rejuvenate for each spell slot that is used to cast a spell. (points gained equal to the level of spell cast)
The one thing I agree with everyone else is the Consuming of items needs axed. When 3.0 removed the EXP cost of creation, they also kept silly things like this from the game also. It is a punishment for playing the class and does not fit Thematically.