Is it enough to allow characters to use this skill untrained? It seems such a critically important skill as to warrant every character being given a single rank by default.
|
Umm, I don't need special training to hear, see, smell, taste, or feel, and perception is any of those. So realistically you don't really need it. Also, it would just become a skill tax, as everyone would drop a single rank in it if you needed to train yourself in it. And it could make stealthy PCs much more powerful if some creatures/NPCs aren't trained in perception. so there is a mechanical reason.
I think you misunderstood me. My position is that its too strict as is, just as you say - everybody should have some ability in it naturally. Sure, one can hone one's senses but having to use skill ranks for it is costly. I was thinking of awarding every PC a rank in it automatically, so as to level the playing field a little. Then, if they want to improve their perception, its up to them. But if its useable untrained, its not that big a difference is it? Whats the downside to using a skill untrained?
rgrove, that is your call as a GM. But if you do that, you are eroding some of the class benefit of high skill classes like rogue or bard. Your argument can be applied to several skills, and even some other game aspects (like saves or BAB, both of which are more important than perception skill). No matter what you do, SOME skill is going to be the most important skill that PCs will still need to invest in.
I would say this is an unnecessary adjustment that negates one of the few actual benefits of playing rogues...
Perception can already be used untrained. While most characters would have a few points in the skill (although some don't), each party only really needs one or two characters with more than that.
The main downsides for a character using a skill untrained are the following:
- no skill bonus for ranks.
- no +3 bonus for the skill being a class skill, as that requires at least 1 rank.
In addition, some skills (even among those that allow untrained use) limit the usefulness of skills performed untrained. For instance, untrained knowledge checks can't exceed 10.
Perception has no such additional limitations, though.
I see your points. I find that it comes up in our games a lot. (beginner Pathfinder GM, long time GM in other systems here.) I have players rolling fairly regularly to see if they notice a trail leading off from the main road, two shadowy looking figures watching them across the tavern common room, one of the merchant stalls has far less activity than the others, the door to the chamber looks like it was forced at some point, and so on. Its a constantly used skill, and a majority of the low level characters just use it untrained which is pretty tough.
|
|
As you have pointed out, perception is a highly used skill. Your players dont seem to be aware just how much its used. Maybe you should point this out and see if any of your players want to start putting points in it. As Are has said up thread, a party usually has one or classes with perception as class skill. What classes are your players?
The main downsides for a character using a skill untrained are the following:
- no skill bonus for ranks.
- no +3 bonus for the skill being a class skill, as that requires at least 1 rank.
Isn't that the same thing?
As for original question OP, it is completely reasonable to give a free rank or so. However, as a DM I wouldn't because if something is easy to see then it should use a low DC. Advanced perception is useful in spotting difficult to see things. A ranger, barbarian, and druid must be very keen in order to live in traditionally uncivilized society. You need to be a good hunter/tracker. Without that skill you wouldn't cut it. Same goes for rogues and bards. They must be very sharp in order to spot things out of place.
Wizards, sorcerers, clerics, fighters, paladins, and any other class that doesn't have perception as a class skill simply are too focused on other aspects of their daily life to be innately concerned with their surroundings.
Finally, there are about 4 traits that are all good traits that grant perception as a class skill. If your players don't get that +3 class bonus then they had the opportunity to take it but chose not to. If they don't put ranks into it at all then their character doesn't have an innate reaction to look over things a second time. Players always have an opportunity to improve their perception at each level up and if they choose not to then it shouldn't fall on you as the DM to fix them.
"Whoops... guess they wont get that treasure..."
"F@+! it, they'll either have to look for that secret door again or assume that this is the wrong cave."
"And everybody make a reflex save because nobody put points into perception."
If something is absolutely essential, I will call for a perception roll and give the result to the highest roller or everybody who rolled well.
The main thing that should resolve any problems you may have is to make DCs low for obvious things and reserve important/useful info for mid DCs and give benefits or avoid problems with high DCs. You wizard should be almost always be a terrible trapfinder (save summon monster I) unless he's specifically chose to be.
Also, one of the things a lot of people like to do is throw random perception check out, particularly in urban settings (currently running a game that has morphed into a fully urban game). It is useful to throw in bits of detail, possible roleplay scenarios, and even potential encounters.
1 rank wont matter if they dotn invest more into it. If you wnat to show them the value of perception just ambush them. That is how I learned. :)
I see your points. I find that it comes up in our games a lot. (beginner Pathfinder GM, long time GM in other systems here.) I have players rolling fairly regularly to see if they notice a trail leading off from the main road, two shadowy looking figures watching them across the tavern common room, one of the merchant stalls has far less activity than the others, the door to the chamber looks like it was forced at some point, and so on. Its a constantly used skill, and a majority of the low level characters just use it untrained which is pretty tough.
Actually, in these cases you could substitute other skills if so desired:
*Trail leadin of the road: Survival*Shadowy figures acting weird in a tavern: Sense motive (would be perception if the shadowy figures were trying to hide)
*A merchant stall with less actitivity: Sense motive. With some creativity, you could call for an appraise check (he has far fewer customers than reasonable, given the value of his goods).
*Forced door: Craft (carpentry) or perhaps knowledge (engineering).
Spreading skill checks around rewards the skill-heavy classes, and avoids the overuse of perception you're complaining about. If in doubt, ask the players after such rolls if they can think of any other skills that could have been used. With a bit of cooperation between you and players, you'll soon develop an idea of where each skill can be applied.
The main downsides for a character using a skill untrained are the following:
- no skill bonus for ranks.
- no +3 bonus for the skill being a class skill, as that requires at least 1 rank.
Isn't that the same thing?
No. It may not have come across in the post, but the first point (no skill bonus for ranks) was intended to refer to the +x you get for having x ranks. Since this would be the case even if the skill wasn't a class skill, I thought the two should be separated.
Consider not focusing only on Perception. Consider using alternative skills as an option.
Make a perception or survival check to notice the trail
Make a perception or knowledge: Engineering check to notice the door.
Make a sense motive or perception check to notice they're being watching
Make an appraise or perception check to notice the merchant stalls
Make a spellcraft or knowledge Arcana to identify the wizard spell being cast
You don't need to only use perception. Find the skill that relates specifically to what caused the perception in the first place. That way players are able to focus on skills that make more sense for their character, but don't make it impossible to accomplish the tasks in the game. I don't use just one skill anymore.
Well, if you don’t dump INT & Wis, and take a RP trait or Feat rather than one that adds to DPR, then you can have all the perc you need for daily tasks.
This is part of the cost for building a optimized min/maxed DPR rocket tag monster.
A little while ago I was in a advice thread and a newbie was advised to Dump wis & int down to 7 for his paladin. Not surprisingly, he couldn’t make any of the dozens of perc check the DM asked for during the game, and wasn’t happy.
