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As the subject line states, I'm wondering if such a build is viable. I should probably get my biases out of the way, by saying I don't think Rangers are particularly good animal companion masters for PFS play.
Druids on the other hand seems much more viable as an animal companion master, mostly on account of them getting it from level 1. Problem I can see with the Druid though is the very poor weapon selection and no combat-related sa's sp's or ex's, which makes them seriously challenged for any martial capability. Then there's the issue of their defensive spells, which seem to only come at level 3 with barkskin. I can't imagine a Druid that does melee or ranged combat that isn't DEX based. They're not ever going to be good damage dealers, but at least they might be able to hit often (along with their companion) and have decent defense.
The problem though is it seems they really have to burn a minimum of 2 feats from the get go to achieve any fighting ability. From my read of them, you either have to go Point Blank + Martial prof. or Weapon Finesse + Martial Weapon prof. - it would be ideal if the latter could be Weapon Finesse+Exotic Weap Prof., but they start at BAB 0. Might just be me, but finesseing a Sickle seems down right pathetic and chucking a spear of flinging a sling seems about equivalent. You get the 2 starting traits in PFS play, so I'm thinking at least 1 would be Adopted to get the Humans' bonus feat.
Then there's the issue of ability stat distribution. If I was going to attempt anything like this I'm thinking I'd go with the Asimar for their +2 in WIS and CHA and no negatives. My problem I have though whenever thinkings stats, is I'd still want a decent number of skills, so I'd want to keep INT at 10. I'd also like to exploit the CHA for Diplomacy, since that's often lacking at the PFS table I play at - easily doable with a Grand lodge trait. I also much prefer playing balanced as opposed to min-max builds.
I guess most importantly I really like the flavor of a nature-focused PC that works synergy with their animal companion and spells to fight in combat. Throw is a few social skills with Humans and Animals and that's icing on the cake. It's a character type I could see myself having fun RP'ing. Of course, like any PC, I'm not going to enjoy it if it end up being seriously nerfed.
I realize the Druid is considered broken by many, so I'm not really looking for feedback that just confirms that opinion. Any thoughts on whether such a build is doable and what sort of starting stats and feats would work would be appreciated. As well, if there's any other class that does it better I like to hear about it. One caveat; I'm not looking to create a Summoner - we have enough of them at the society tables I play at.
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Just use a Scythe and play like most barbarians. Build up HP over AC. This is how most druids play due to the armor restriction. They can do a good job in melee with the scythe until they can wild shape. In PFSP with wild shape there must be a animal in the bestiary's that can get that size to wild shape in to it. IE no huge bear form.
If your looking for a full build to get ideas from. Just let me know and ill send you the build for my druid.
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A good starting place is the question, "What books do you own?" Knowing what you have available to play can either open up or lock down a lot of doors for a query like this.
I own the CRB, Adv Players Guide, Adv. Races Guide, Ultimate Magic and PFS Field Guide.
Will this be a play from level one build or a start higher with GM credit?
Starting from level 1
Just use a Scythe and play like most barbarians. Build up HP over AC. This is how most druids play due to the armor restriction. They can do a good job in melee with the scythe until they can wild shape.
I'd already considered something like this, but I really want decent social skills too. That sort of build seemed to rule it out.
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As a druid there is not enough point to do every thing you want. As you need Str, Con, and Wis. And dumping Dex removes most of your AC as a Druid. Something has to give. Social skills. Are the one thing you can give up with little effect to the character over all. As they effect your character the least. No one at the table will look over at the druid and expect them to have good social skills.
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As a druid there is not enough point to do every thing you want. As you need Str, Con, and Wis. And dumping Dex removes most of your AC as a Druid. Something has to give. Social skills. Are the one thing you can give up with little effect to
Ah, I see where you're coming from & many thanks for the replies. Just to make things clearer, I include Handle Animal as a social skill. The only other social skill this PC would have is diplomacy.I wouldn't be happy with this build to soley rely on my animal companion's bonus skills or struggle with a nerfed Wild Empathy - definitely want to be able to train my companion. So dumping CHA really isn't an option; hence my leaning towards an Asimar that's a DEX based for combat.
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I dumped Cha on my druid. Then I went and picked a feet I tell most people is a waste of time. Skill Focus: Handle Animal to make up for dumping Cha down to 8. This lets me have a handle animal of 6 at level 1 +4 for my animal companion. That lets me give basic commands with out needing to roll unless he is hurt. My goal with any class that uses animal companion. Is to get to where I can make a DC 25 reliably. That way I can use any tricks with out haven to train the animal companion in all of them. In doing this it gets your Handle Animal high enough to train animals.
My druid at level 10 Handle Animal
Ranks 10 + 3 Class Skill + 6 Skill Focus - 1 Cha = Total 18
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Interesting idea calaganar - hadn't considered skill focus for Handle Animal. I can definitely see where that would free up some points and make a STR combat build more possible. The problem at my PFS tables is that it's often the case that no player has a social skill which makes dialog heavy adventures a real challenge at times. Whereas, with 1 exception all of my PC's have a social skill. I was hoping to leverage the higher CHA for Diplomacy. As well, I already have a Ranger and Magus that have CHA as a dump stat, so I was hoping this time for a PC that didn't have that limitation.
That said, an Asimar with the Grand Lodges' Insider Knowledge trait does start with Diplomacy as a class skill and a +3 bonus when u figure in the trait and the Asimar's Skilled racial trait. That's not a great Diplomacy, but not terrible either.
[Edit] Just out of curiosity, what was your starting WIS stat?
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Starting Stats for my Druid: He got converted to a Caviler Huntmaster. Both work well I just did not like having spells. As it ruined the feel of what I was going for.
Human Druid
Str 15+2Human = 17
Dex 14
Con 14
Int 10
Wis 14
Cha 8
That's the problem I see a lot at PFSP. There are a lot of characters focused on combat. There are very few that can do every thing else the party needs. I have more then one character that can fill multiple rolls. There normally not the best combat characters.
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Cool calagnar - close to what I arrived at. Just now reskinning my Asimar to a STR build I came up with:
STR 16
DEX 14
CON 13
INT 10
WIS 17
CHA 8
I had Toughness along with Skill Focus(Handle animal) as the 2 feats that they take via the Adopted(Human-Bonus Feat)starting trait. I definitely want my Druid to be a decent caster, hence my keeping WIS @ 17. I'd like to drop that to 16, but to be honest I haven't done much reading up on Druid spells yet and don't know how many have saving throws or DC concerns. If they do, my plan would be to bump it to 18 at level 4.
It wouldn't be that great a hitter in combat, but I figure a companion with trip might help with that and a MW weapon & belt of STR +2 at around mid level 4.
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Alternately, take Weapon Finesse, throw 2 ranks into Perform (Dance) and take Dervish Dance. Druids start proficient with scimitars and you would be able to use your Dex modifier for both attack rolls and damage. Keep your Dex up and you benefit for AC, To Hit, and Damage.
Cool idea, but isn't Dervish Dance an archetype only available to Bards? Unless you're suggesting I dip into 1 level of Bard, which is something I wouldn't be thrilled about doing. As well, correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the Scimitar excluded from being used with Weapon Finesse? Otherwise it'd be a no-brainer to go DEX combat with Weapon Finesse, but from what I've read the best weapon a Druid can finesse is the Sickle.
As a point in favor of Selene's suggestion -- all natural weapons automatically benefit from Weapon Finesse. If your wild shape brings your str modifier above your dex, no problem -- Weapon finesse says you 'may' use the dex modifier in place of your str, so in that case you can use str.
Edit: Dervish dance is a feat available to anyone. You're perhaps thinking of Dawnflower dervish, a bard archetype that gets that for free. You'd want to get weapon finesse at first level, use a sickle until you get dervish dance, then switch to a scimitar. You're correct that scimitars normally cannot be finessed, but Dervish Dance changes that. It's not the most optimal build, but it's viable, good for elves and other dex+ races, and fun.
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Edit: Dervish dance is a feat available to anyone.
Really, which book is it in? I'm very interested in checking this feat out, but I can't find it in any of my books or in the PRD.
You're perhaps thinking of Dawnflower dervish, a bard archetype that gets that for free.
Nope, I was thinking of the Dervish Dancer archetype for Bards that's listed in the Ultimate Combat book.
[Edit] As well, why would I want to go this route anyways, when I can achieve the same result with Weapon Finesse + Martial Weapon Proficiency(Rapier). I couldn't particularly care less whether its a Rapier or Scimitar since both crit and damage the same. Another bonus with the Rapier route is I can get it a level 1, don't have to waste skill points on a skill I'll never use and it's lighter which could be nice with a STR challenged DEX fighter.
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Don't dump strength even with dervish dance. You'll suck in wildshape forms.
Yep, the STR approach is looking better to me the more I consider it. The Armor Class is a challenge, but there's also the option to wield a Scimitar and shield. Casting would be challenging at level 1, but with BAB 1 at level 2, the shield or scimitar can be freely swapped away as part of a move action.
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The druid spell list is ok. It is not something I would focus on unless your going for a caster build. As they have enough buffing spell that you can fill you spell list with that work better for a combat focused build.
So in your opinion is 16 WIS enough? I wouldn't be willing to go below that, as a min of 16 in the key ability for a primary caster is sort of a personal rule for me. I know 16 gets me all of my spells, as being a PFS Druid it's unlikely I'd play past level 12. I know I can get to WIS 18 easily with a Headband of Inspiring Wisdom +2, but that would mean me still missing bonus spell slots for my last 2 spell levels.
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"You get the 2 starting traits in PFS play, so I'm thinking at least 1 would be Adopted to get the Humans' bonus feat."
Remember that you get the Human BACKGROUND racial trait (e.g World Traveler or Scholar of Ruins). You do not get a human RACIAL trait (extra feat, etc)
I was going by what was actually stated by the trait in the APG:
"Adopted: You were adopted and raised by someone not of your actual race, and raised in a society not your own. As a result, you picked up a race trait from your adoptive parents and society, and may immediately select a race trait from your adoptive parents' race."
And then what was listed under the Human racial traits heading.
"Human Racial Traits
...
Bonus Feat: Humans select one extra feat at 1st level."
So does Bonus Feat somehow not qualify for that? I checked the APG FAQ and there's nothing additional listed for Adopted. Is there some section of the CRB or APG that I missed?
[Edit] Nevermind, I reread the Traits section of the APG's New Rules chapter and I see where I made my mistake. Adopted is a Basic-Social trait that qualifies a PC to take a trait belonging to another race within the "Race Trait" section of that chapter. As well, the heading in the core race sections is entitled "Racial Traits". Knew it had to be too good to be true. Good thing I didn't make this mistake with any of my other PC's. ;)
Not much of a problem any ways, as I think I can do the STR combat Druid build with only 1 starting feat.
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The difference is in the tiny details-
racial trait- bonus feat, skilled etc
Race Trait- a trait from the race category- as opposed to the social or religion etc
also, does the fighting you do have to be melee?
an elven druid gets free weapon prof- longbow, bonus to dex. Aso, being ranged means you dont have to worry (as much) about con and high AC as (hopefully) your animal companion / team will be holding the line for you.
on the other hand, ranged combat does require quite a few feats to work, but you could get by with as little as PBS and precise shot.
Just a thought
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also, does the fighting you do have to be melee?
an elven druid gets free weapon prof- longbow, bonus to dex. Aso, being ranged means you dont have to worry (as much) about con and high AC as (hopefully) your animal companion / team will be holding the line for you.
on the other hand, ranged combat does require quite a few feats to work, but you could get by with as little as PBS and precise shot.
Just a thought
Good suggestion Zedorland and I had considered it. The biggest problem I can see with it for a beast master Druid is that the the companions most commonly have Trip as a follow on CMB and that's really a detriment instead of help to a ranged fighter. There are the poisoning companions in the APG, but they didn't seem as good as the better companions in the CRB. To be honest I'm not that impressed that Paizo hasn't included grab with more of the companions.
As well, I already have an Elven Magus, so I wasn't looking to create another Elf PC. I also have a Gnome Sorcerer with decent DEX, both Point Blank & Precise shot and with a S%#! load of rays, so I wasn't feeling an itch for another ranged specialist. ;) I was really looking for a Druid that could build some synergy with a companion that can trip, and melee seemed the best for that.