Hi! I'm building a switch hitter ranger and am looking for advice on feats.
Character background: Half elf (with the drow racial traits) grew up in a village in hills that border entrances to the underdark. Drow raids were frequent, as was persecution by most humans due to his/her appearance. One particularly harsh winter most of his village was slaughtered. He/she was left for dead, but the spirits took pity on him/her and led him to a sheltered cave. This became his/her home for the next few years as he learned how to survive alone, stalking raiding parties and bandits alike.
Race: Half-Elf
Drow-Descended - has the Drow-Blooded and Drow Magic alternate racial traits
Class: Ranger - Spirit Ranger Archetype (Archery combat style)
Traits: Magical Knack (Ranger), Highlander (+1 Stealth, +2 in hills/mountains)
Stats: (20 pt build)
Str: 16+2
Dex: 14
Con: 12
Int: 10
Wis: 14
Cha: 8
Weapon: longbow/greatsword
First favored terrain is hills/mountains and first favored enemy is either humans or elves (or split +1/+1 if the GM will allow it, but probably not).
Feats:
1: Toughness OR Exile's Path OR Arcane strike?
2: Rapid Shot
3: Power Attack
5: Deadly Aim
6: Many Shot
7: Vital Strike
9:
10: Improved Precise Shot
11: Improved Vital Strike
13:
14: Pinpoint Targeting
15:
17: Greater Vital Strike
18:
19:
I'm unsure about the first level feat - right now I'm leaning towards toughness, but I absolutely love the flavor and ability of Exile's path. Arcane strike is done at CL because of the drow spell like abilities, but is only +1 at first level - should I wait until later?
The holes at 9,13,15 are where improved critical, critical focus, and blinding critical would go, but I don't like them very much. A keen weapon is only +1, and replaces improved critical feat entirely. And a weapon with a higher critical range has less damage dice, which lowers the utility of lead blades/vital strike combo.
The only things I really don't want to change are the archetype and alternate racial traits, as they fit into the backstory. Are there any feats that go really well with the spirit ranger's spontaneous spells?
If you are doing a switch hitter you really need quick draw this should be around 5th level, but by 7th level at the latest. I would suggest moving power attack to 1st. Take deadly aim to 3rd, and don’t bother taking toughness. Also you are much better off doing a full attack instead of vital strike. The whole idea behind the switch hitter is you always full attack. If they are at range keep shooting them with arrows, if they get you in melee drop your bow and pull a two handed weapon and attack. This is the reason you need quick draw so you can pull a weapon as a free action.
Mysterious Stranger wrote: If you are doing a switch hitter you really need quick draw this should be around 5th level, but by 7th level at the latest. I would suggest moving power attack to 1st. Take deadly aim to 3rd, and don’t bother taking toughness. Also you are much better off doing a full attack instead of vital strike. The whole idea behind the switch hitter is you always full attack. If they are at range keep shooting them with arrows, if they get you in melee drop your bow and pull a two handed weapon and attack. This is the reason you need quick draw so you can pull a weapon as a free action. Thanks for the feedback!
I see your point about quick draw - I was thinking that the character would be moving into combat and draw as part of the move action. If the enemy is closing on the ranger though, I wouldn't get the draw. Does drawing a weapon provoke an AOO? If not then all you lose by not having it is nothing levels 1-5, 1 -5 iterative attack levels 6-10. The iterative is kinda painful to lose when the monster was kind enough to come to me though.
The reason I like toughness at 1 is because thats when its most effective and because this char is kinda squishy. Only 12 Con and a low armor class (breastplate is too expensive to start with) is really dangerous. Then again, I could just play a bit cautiously :P. Yeah toughness is gone for now (makes me nervous).
I would rather have arcane strike for this build at L1 than power attack - I know it sounds weird, but I like the extra +1 damage on both archery and melee without having to lower to hit. Call me weird, but I feel like boosting archery at L1 at least a little before you can get a composite bow will round out the character.
I guess I should explain that I don't see vital strike as replacing full attacks. I see it as a way to make moving more palatable. There are tons of reasons that make moving good, and I want to be able to do at least decent damage with them. I see it a mark of a good GM (while playing intelligent monsters) to deny PC's their full attacks either through positioning or priorities - full attacks in about 2/3 of rounds? probably less in an interesting battle. You can also often really help out your teammates by moving - setting up flanks, giving your archer a clear shot, protecting your casters/leaving the blast area, opening a charge lane, running battle, oh shit gotta run... you get the idea :). Finally, a ranger is in a really good shape to benefit from vital strike. With a greatsword each feat gives 7 base, 10.5 with lead blades, and 14 with a ring/wizard to enlarge you, extra average damage.
Something like this?
1: Arcane Strike
2: Rapid Shot
3: Power Attack
5: Deadly Aim
6: Many Shot
7: Vital Strike
9: Quick Draw -- swap vital and quick draw?
10: Improved Precise Shot
11: Improved Vital Strike
13: Exile's Path?
14: Pinpoint Targeting
15:
17: Greater Vital Strike
18:
19:
Buy in a 15 STR to start, that extra 3 points will net you a 14 CON, which exactly makes up for Toughness.
Power Attack or Quickdraw at 1st is necessary, Deadly Aim by 5th.
Myself, I like going the Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack route to keep me out of attack range, but I also buy in to lower CON and higher DEX.
For rangers, my personal favorite race is the Plumekith Aasimar, and if I go half-elf, I do it for free Skill Focus and usually put it on perception to do my scouty job.
master_marshmallow wrote: Buy in a 15 STR to start, that extra 3 points will net you a 14 CON, which exactly makes up for Toughness.
Power Attack or Quickdraw at 1st is necessary, Deadly Aim by 5th.
Myself, I like going the Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack route to keep me out of attack range, but I also buy in to lower CON and higher DEX.
For rangers, my personal favorite race is the Plumekith Aasimar, and if I go half-elf, I do it for free Skill Focus and usually put it on perception to do my scouty job.
I can see the dodge/mobility being good - I'm a little skeptical about spring attack because vital strike doesn't stack with it. Plan A is full attack, plan B is vital strike, I'm not sure if I need a plan C or if it would do enough damage.
Why is quickdraw needed at 1? Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't see it doing anything before lvl 6 in practical terms? Oh - I guess you can draw a weapon for free in the surprise round and get an attack if the weapon isn't already out. Power attack at lvl 1 I'm deliberately not taking so that archery will get a little buff as well as melee.
If I drop str to 15 then I agree power attack is needed to make up the damage... I'll think about it. I'm not sure I want to trade 1 to hit, 2 to damage for 1 hp at level 1. After level 4 its better though, so I guess its a better now/better later decision.
Thaago wrote: master_marshmallow wrote: Buy in a 15 STR to start, that extra 3 points will net you a 14 CON, which exactly makes up for Toughness.
Power Attack or Quickdraw at 1st is necessary, Deadly Aim by 5th.
Myself, I like going the Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack route to keep me out of attack range, but I also buy in to lower CON and higher DEX.
For rangers, my personal favorite race is the Plumekith Aasimar, and if I go half-elf, I do it for free Skill Focus and usually put it on perception to do my scouty job.
I can see the dodge/mobility being good - I'm a little skeptical about spring attack because vital strike doesn't stack with it. Plan A is full attack, plan B is vital strike, I'm not sure if I need a plan C or if it would do enough damage.
Why is quickdraw needed at 1? Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't see it doing anything before lvl 6 in practical terms? Oh - I guess you can draw a weapon for free in the surprise round and get an attack if the weapon isn't already out. Power attack at lvl 1 I'm deliberately not taking so that archery will get a little buff as well as melee.
If I drop str to 15 then I agree power attack is needed to make up the damage... I'll think about it. I'm not sure I want to trade 1 to hit, 2 to damage for 1 hp at level 1. After level 4 its better though, so I guess its a better now/better later decision. I only say Quickdraw is needed Early because you have more important feats to pick up once you get the prereqs going with your combat style. Human builds make it work a lot faster since they can pick it up with their bonus feat.
Quick draw is important for a couple of reasons. One allows you to switch weapons which are the whole idea behind the switch hitter. For example if you have the initiative but the enemy will be on you next turn you fire with the bow and at the end of your turn drop the bow and draw your sword. This allows you you threaten so can make attack of opportunities. At 6th level and above it allows you to always get your full attack even if you do not have a weapon drawn. Once again what makes the switch hitter deadly is he can almost always get a full attack off. You do not move into position unless it is a 5 foot step, you hold your ground and wait for the enemy to come to you.
One thing that works well is to carry a reach weapon in addition to the sword and bow. This way you if you have initiative you can do a full attack with your bow and draw the reach weapon so you can get an attack of opportunity when they move to attack you. After they move within 5 feet drop the reach weapon and attack them with your sword. Take a Guisarme and trip them for your attack of opportunity. This will prevent them from getting within striking range of you. Since they have already moved to attack they would have to use a second move action to get up which provokes an attack of opportunity. If you have combat reflexes you could get a full attack with the bow, a trip attack, another attack of opportunity, and then finally another full attack before they can even swing on you once.
Yeah, I'm definitely feeling a bit feat starved :P. I just found another one that I want as well: Deepsight. It would double the dark vision to 120 feet. My earliest place to put it is 13, but at that point is it really worth it?
@Mysterious Stranger
Hmm, I guess so. I wonder how often you really get to stand and have enemies come to you. With animals/unintelligent opponents yes, but intelligent things should be able to deal with that and punish you for not moving. For example, they can engage your allies in melee. Because switch hitters don't have precise shot usually, that means they just whacked you with a -4 penalty to hit (-6 or -8 before level 10 when you don't have improved precise shot to deal with the cover your allies give). Or they could cast a control spell near where you are, forcing you to either move or eat saves/not be able to fire. Or an enemy with 15ft reach or longer laughs at your attempts and makes you enter his threatened spaces.
Of course, the normal response of a baddy is to charge what they think is the squishy archer. So only if they have intel on you or are truly exceptional.
Not sure about vital strike. With QuickDraw you can always full attack, so when do you vital strike?
I second starting with a 17 STR & 14 CON.
The idea of Arcane Strike is neat. +1 damage with no penalty to hit is probably better at low levels because it applies to melee & ranged.
Well, you can't always stand still. Maybe I just play with really crafty GM's lol, but not moving in combat is not a good option :D.
Yeah, I'm starting to like the 17 STR, 14 CON a lot too! Yay advice!
Keep in mind you are not an archer you are a switch hitter. You do not hang back and hide behind other party members you are in the front line. If the rest of the party keeps formation then you will not have a problem. A properly equipped martial class should always have a missile weapon even if they are primarily melee. Spell caster for the most part will also do better at range. If the party uses good tactics they will attack the enemy form range at first, most of the time this will cause the enemy to either flee or to try and close the distance. If they flee then just keep attacking them.
Switch hitters do not really come into their own until around 6thlevel. By this time the other martial classes will also have a multiple attacks. Most of the time it will be in the parties best interest to attack from range when they can. If the other martial characters also have bows the party can just trade shots and probably come out ahead. If you have a reach weapon and combat reflexes you can stop multiple opponents by tripping them. This will allow all the martial characters yourself included to take a five foot step and full attack.
If you are worried about the penalty for shooting into melee take precise shoot instead of the vital strike chain. This will end up netting you a feat because you only need point blank shot and precise shoot. The big problem with vital shot is it only increases your damage by the base damage of the weapon. You do not get all your bonuses which is where most of your damage is coming from.
Well, I think we're just going to have to agree to disagree about full attacking so often - it must be just the style of my GM, but often times enemies force us to move. A lot of times its spell casters either being immune to arrows or just forcing us to scatter for cover due to blasts. Other times there are environmental hazards/benefits. Or the enemy has attacked the flank of the party and I either stand still and fire arrows into covered melee or I take a move and get into the action. We do get fights that go down by the numbers, but they are usually challenging in other ways (sheer power) that makes up for the lack of tactics on our enemies part.
Even with that, I am going to drop vital strike. Originally I was thinking 7/10+ damage for a feat was a good deal, but now I'm just thinking that it will probably be better to spend the standard action I would be vital striking to cast a spell, drink a potion... whatever beneficial standard actions that aren't worth losing a full attack over, but are worth losing even a vital striked single attack. Especially with spirit ranger because of the spell flexibility.
Feats:
1: Arcane Strike
2: Rapid Shot
3: Power Attack
5: Deadly Aim
6: Many Shot
7: Quick Draw
9: Deepsight? (120 ft darkvision)
10: Improved Precise Shot
11: Exile's Path? (rerolling the weakest save 1/day)
13:
14: Pinpoint Targeting
15:
17:
18:
19:
So what should I put in those upper feet slots?
Updated build:
Race: Half-Elf
Drow-Descended - has the Drow-Blooded and Drow Magic alternate racial traits
Class: Ranger - Spirit Ranger Archetype (Archery combat style)
Traits: Magical Knack (Ranger), Highlander (+1 Stealth, +2 in hills/mountains)
Stats: (20 pt build)
Str: 15+2
Dex: 14
Con: 14
Int: 10
Wis: 14
Cha: 8
Feats as 1 post above.
At 1st level: Greatsword: +4 attack, 2d6+5 counts as magic
Longbow: +3 attack, 1d8+1 counts as magic
AC: 16
HP: 13
Perception: 8
Stealth: 6, -3 penalty if armored
FRW: 4/4/2
4th level (+1 str):
Greatsword: +8 attack (6 with power attack), 2d6+7 (2d6+13 with p.a.)
Longbow (composite+4): +6 or 4/4 attack, d8+5 each
HP: 40
AC: 18
FRW:6/6/3
Spells: 1 Spontaneous, 1 1st level (probably entangle or aspect of the falcon)
8th level (+1 str): - not counting magic equipment
Greatsword: +12/7 attack (9/4 with power attack), 2d6+8 (2d6+17)
Longbow: +10/5 or 8/8/3 (subtract 3 for deadly aim), d8+6 (d8+12)
HP: 76
AC: 18
FRW: 8/8/4
Spells: 2 1st level, 2 second level, 2 spontaneous any level.
You know what... After considering things a bit, I don't know that Deadly Aim is essential to the build as originally thought in Treantmonk's guide.
His guide is brilliant, and I followed it pretty much to the T for my Switch Hitter (we are at level 13 now). Problem is I either don't use Rapid Shot or I don't use Deadly Aim because the compounding penalties on attack rolls hurt too much.
I think Deadly Aim is actually better suited to a dedicated Archer than a Switch Hitter. Here are the bullet points on why it may not be essential for your build;
- The dedicated Archer focuses on DEX. Therefore, he has a higher chance of hitting with his Bow than you do, but does less damage. The Attack/Damage trade off pays off.
- You focus on STR, with DEX as a secondary stat. You don't lack for damage, but you do lack for attack mods. Every minus hurts.
- You have an additional source of static damage with Arcane Strike. Again, you won't lack for damage. (Arcane Strike, Favoured Enemy, STR, Gravity Bow).
I plan on running the numbers for my own interest - if you'd like I will share them with you?
A feat you could consider in place of Deadly Aim is Opening Volley. It's perfect for a Switch Hitter. Or Boon Companion (I have no idea if the Spirit Ranger has a companion or not, so this may not be applicable)... You could also shuffle some stuff and slip Vital Strike back in the mix if you're still feeling you can get mileage out of it...
I would very much like to see your calculations for this!
A (very!) rough one using the 8th level numbers for me and assuming 'typical' enemy ac's (a typical CR8 monster has ac 21 according to http://paizo.com/PRD/monsters/monsterCreation.html):
Expected damage without deadly aim, with manyshot and rapid shot:
arrows do d8+4(str)+2(arcane strike)+1(magic weapon) = 11.5 dmg
Attack bonuses: 9/9/4 with +1 magic weapon
Manyshot multiplies first attack expected damage
CR 8 monster, AC 21:
11.5*2*(.45)+11.5*(.45)+11.5*.2 = 17.825 Dpr
deadly aim adds 6 damage, -3 to attack:
17.5*2*(.3)+17.5*(.3)+17.5*(.05) = 16.625
How about a cr 10, AC 24 sub boss:
11.5*2*(.30)+11.5*(.3)+11.5*.05 = 10.925
Deadly aim:
17.5*2*(.15)+17.5*(.15)+17.5*(.05) = 8.75
CR 6 mook with ac 19?
11.5*2*(.55)+11.5*(.55)+11.5*.3 = 22.425
Deadly aim:
17.5*2*(.4)+17.5*(.4)+17.5*(.15) = 23.625
This ignores a bunch of stuff, but does show that this build's to hit is low enough that deadly aim isn't very effective. Against low AC and against damage reduction things get better for deadly aim, but it seems that you are right that deadly aim isn't worth a feat for this build!
More abstractly, with D being expected damage without deadly aim, T being the chance to hit, L being the tier of deadly aim, the feat has the following effect on expected damage per arrow:
(D+2L)(T-.05L) - DT = 2LT - .05DL - .1L^2
In my case (evaluated for L=3) I have high D, low T... bad conditions for deadly aim. Again this analysis ignores damage reduction and boundary effects (always hitting on 20).
Your numbers seem to support my personal experience. I haven't had a chance to play with numbers yet, but I will post up when I do.
The build continues to improve! I'm currently looking at the drow feats for the mid/upper levels, particularly Drow Nobility, Improved, Greater, and Noble Spell Resistance. It fits the concept and I have some feats free, so why not?
My question is this: do I need to take the Half-Drow Paragon feat to take those other feats? http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/arg-feats/half-drow-paragon-half-elf
I would think so (because otherwise it wouldn't exist), but if so I'm disappointed. Its pure feat tax! (Even worse than usual - it does literally nothing other than make you vulnerable to things specializing in killing drow). Are the drow feats really so good that you need to turn a 4 feat chain into a 5 feat chain?
Also, would taking Racial Heritage(Drow) as a trait through the human part allow me to avoid the feat tax?
The other problem is that the upper 3 feats require a charisma of 13, which would mean rebuilding the chars stat points. Maybe just the first feat, Drow Nobility? It adds feather fall and levitate once per day, which is nice, but I don't think its worth 2 feats (with the tax). Maybe these abilities would be more suited to a fighter with their tons of free feats and complete lack of spell support.
Putting an 8 in a stat is an utter waste of two buy points. The most bonus-dense 20pt array is 15,14,14,14,12,07. That 15 is immediately a 17, then a 20 with item at 5th.
Sir Thugsalot wrote: Putting an 8 in a stat is an utter waste of two buy points. The most bonus-dense 20pt array is 15,14,14,14,12,07. That 15 is immediately a 17, then a 20 with item at 5th. That may be so from an optimization standpoint, but I have no intention of playing a character with a 7 charisma. Heck, even the 8 was painful and its only there because the backstory has this character first being raised in a backwoods village and then being completely without human contact for several years. Every time I see these 7's on people's arrays I really wonder if they are going to RP them or just take the minuses and ignore them.
Any feedback on the drow feats?
normally just take the minuses and ignore them. I roleplay a person with a personality, not a collection of digits.
Thaago wrote: I have no intention of playing a character with a 7 charisma. But you have every intention of playing a character with an 8 charisma? It is so vastly different? You're a smelly, booger-picking ranger who hasn't had a bath in months either way. IMO 8s and 10s are the least efficient attribute scores in Pathfinder; they should either be 7s or 12s if they're not going to be 14+. Btw, your listed stats totaled only 22pts; I'm guessing that 12 in CON was supposed to be a 14.
* * * * *
What I'd really like to see:
Str: 14
Dex: 15+2
Con: 14
Int: 12
Wis: 14
Cha: 7
01 barb1 Raging Vitality, half-elf[SF:Perception or Ancestral Arms/Fauchard]
02 rang1 [Favored Enemy:(whatever)]
03 barb2 [Reckless Abandon +1], Quick Draw
04 rang2 [Rapid Shot], DEX>18
05 (any) Extra Rage or FEAT....
Equipment: STR+5 +1 composite longbow, STR+2 MW composite longbow, belt of giant strength +2, +1 light quickdraw shield, efficient quiver + arrows of various types, MW cold-iron bardiche, MW silver morningstar, assortment of scrolls of ranger spells, mundane adventure gear.
A multiclass like this yields higher attack scores and damage both in melee and at range; and you'll eventually end up with the same or higher AC while raging than the other build which doesn't advance DEX. Rage papers over your generally cruddy will save regardless.
Given the thorough putrescence of Spirit Bond versus an animal mount/sidekick or buffing the party via a different archetype, I'd multiclass the crap out of Spirit Ranger (and you might only take two levels of it, deciding barbarian is more to your liking over the long run). With the higher DEX, you're qualified for any TWF or archery feats you might want without ranger anyway. Getting rid of drow gives your 1st-level feat back, as well as your level bonus in two classes.
Quote: Any feedback on the drow feats? You don't any get any benefit out of those traits that I can see unless you take Arcane Strike...which is a very good feat, albeit at the cost of eating up all your Swift and Immediate actions (it isn't apparent at low level how bloody useful, if not necessary, those will become later on).
Basically you're coughing a trait and a feat to chip a few extra points of damage. If you were a one-trick-pony archer or pounce build, then maybe it'd be worth it, but probably not as a switch-hitter who needs more flexible action economy.
Sir Thugsalot wrote: Thaago wrote: I have no intention of playing a character with a 7 charisma. But you have every intention of playing a character with an 8 charisma? It is so vastly different? You're a smelly, booger-picking ranger who hasn't had a bath in months either way. This may be because I've been playing exalted, which is a very exponential system, but I see a VERY large difference between a 7 and an 8 in Charisma. 8 is below average social skills: you don't have a forceful personality, or aren't charming, or have a stutter. But you are still pretty much a normal person. A 7 I see you as having a defective personality when it comes to dealing with other people: something about you is really off. I know the difference is only -1 to -2: this may very well be just how I and my group sees these numbers. I think charisma is far far more than hygene though (otherwise forcing such a character to take a bath would give them an immediate +2...). It can be fun coming up with a good reason why you are 'off', but its not really my thing. I like being dumb or naive better. :) Again, this is probably a very group by group type of thing, so I'm not really looking to tell you how to interpret it for yourself, only how I do.
Sir Thugsalot wrote:
IMO 8s and 10s are the least efficient attribute scores in Pathfinder; they should either be 7s or 12s if they're not going to be 14+. Btw, your listed stats totaled only 22pts; I'm guessing that 12 in CON was supposed to be a 14.
Thats odd - both sets of stats (I changed things up about half way down under other people's advice) add up to a 20 point build according to my calculator. 10+5+2+5-2=20?
Would you mind expanding on what you mean by efficient? A 10 costs 0 points to give 0, a 12 gives +1 for 2, an 8 gives -1 for -2. A 7 gives -2 for -4 so it gives the same efficiency as an 8 in terms of build points per stat point (only because you can't go down to a 6). So for the 7-12 range, each point of bonus is worth 2 build points. I see this as being the same, so I'm wondering what I'm missing.
Sir Thugsalot wrote:
Given the thorough putrescence of Spirit Bond versus an animal mount/sidekick or buffing the party via a different archetype, I'd multiclass the crap out of Spirit Ranger (and you might only take two levels of it, deciding barbarian is more to your liking over the long run). With the higher DEX, you're qualified for any TWF or archery feats you might want without ranger anyway. Getting rid of drow gives your 1st-level feat back, as well as your level bonus in two classes.
I'm guessing you don't like Spirit Ranger :). Thats good feedback to get, although I disagree with you. While it only gives you a few spells, those spells actually end up being about 50% of the number of spells you get anyways, even including high will bonus spells. And they are all of whatever spell level you can cast. And they are any of the enormous ranger spell list, many of which are super situational. I've played with an animal companion and liked it, but I see this as being almost as good.
Quote: You don't any get any benefit out of those traits that I can see unless you take Arcane Strike...which is a very good feat, albeit at the cost of eating up all your Swift and Immediate actions (it isn't apparent at low level how bloody useful, if not necessary, those will become later on).
Basically you're coughing a trait and a feat to chip a few extra points of damage. If you were a one-trick-pony archer or pounce build, then maybe it'd be worth it, but probably not as a switch-hitter who needs more flexible action economy.
Err- I think you may have missed the actual feats I was talking about! You get a number of abilities by the end of the chain (constant effect detect magic, at will levitation, faerie fire, deeper darkness, feather fall, dancing lights) and then a SR = CL+11 to cap it off. I have no idea if its worth 4 (5 with tax I hope I can get my GM to houserule away. 6 if you count the dropped skill focus) feats! Certainly not nothing though.
Would you mind pointing some examples of swift actions for a ranger? I haven't played with one above level 10 or so - I don't have experience with what swift actions they can take. I didn't think they really had any! I was seeing the Arcane Strike as a nice feat that wouldn't interfere with anything else.
Quote: Your build Thats a nice build, but it doesn't really do what I want. I'm looking to go for a versatile magic feel, so I don't want to lose the spells from multi-classing to barbarian. Thanks for posting it though, it gave me a bunch of things to think about.
Thaago wrote: I see a VERY large difference between a 7 and an 8 in Charisma. By Pathfinder RAW, nothing special happens when you drop from an 8 to a 7; you're just -2 now instead of -1. Hell, there are dwarves tromping all over the place with 5s. Their surly dispositions are probably why they're out adventuring with the likes of you in the first place. Quote: I'm guessing you don't like Spirit Ranger Trading a rockin' animal companion for a once per day Augury and a spell is a horrible deal. At best, it's extremely situational.
Note that divine casters can always leave spell slots "open" during preparation, then fill them in later during a break (ideally after learning what the day's challenges will hold): Paizo RAW wrote: Spell Selection and Preparation: A divine spellcaster selects and prepares spells ahead of time through prayer and meditation at a particular time of day. The time required to prepare spells is the same as it is for a wizard (1 hour), as is the requirement for a relatively peaceful environment. When preparing spells for the day, a cleric can leave some of her spell slots open. Later during that day, she can repeat the preparation process as often as she likes. During these extra sessions of preparation, she can fill these unused spell slots. She cannot, however, abandon a previously prepared spell to replace it with another one or fill a slot that is empty because she has cast a spell in the meantime. Like the first session of the day, this preparation takes at least 15 minutes, and it takes longer if she prepares more than one-quarter of his spells." So, there's little a Spirit Ranger gains that a normal ranger can't do anyway. (The Spirit Ranger can merely do it as a standard action.) A high-powered Augury is nice, but it's only once per day. Quote: Would you mind pointing some examples of swift actions for a ranger? Well, that'd be a long slog through all the splat books. Suffice to say that many feats, class abilities (depending upon what you dip) and magic items require Swift or Immediate actions (note that Immediate actions forfeit the Swift action of the following turn). For instance, I might be a half-orc with the Ferocious Tenacity feat, which uses an Immediate Action on my part to keep from dying. -- The higher and higher level you get, the more options and bling you're going to accumulate which use swift/immediate.
I see immense utility in having spells available 'now' rather than 15 minutes later. I know the rules for divine casters and take advantage of them, but in practice you don't have time to ask the monsters for a break in the middle of an encounter. Also you have to remember that the extra spells are of any spell level, so you can cast upper level spells a whole lot more. For the whole 5 levels (13-17) that most rangers are casting only 1 4th level spell (or 2 if they take an item to crank up their wisdom to 18) you can cast 4 (or 5). Or use the slots for a timely resist energy. Or... you get the idea. Its just so freaking versatile (about 160 spells at your fingertips, some of which are really good). For me the divination is just (excellent) gravy.
Animal companions are absolutely a good choice, but I don't see this as being so much worse. Just less of a martial focus and more of a versatility focus. And at mid/upper levels when the animal companions are losing steam this keeps getting more powerful with CL.
Quote: Well, that'd be a long slog through all the splat books. Suffice to say that many feats, class abilities (depending upon what you dip) and magic items require Swift or Immediate actions (note that Immediate actions forfeit the Swift action of the following turn). For instance, I might be a half-orc with the Ferocious Tenacity feat, which uses an Immediate Action on my part to keep from dying. -- The higher and higher level you get, the more options and bling you're going to accumulate which use swift/immediate. Well, you did bring it up :P. I did a quick search through the feat tree page on the pfsrd: I see a few immediate/swift actions regarding movement that could be interesting, but that I probably wouldn't take. Nothing other than that though, unless the word swift or immediate is buried on the feat page and not the summary (probs a few). And your example is for a half-orc, so not applicable to me. I know that other classes get swifts (freaking magus uses them for every other ability) but I'm planning on a straight ranger shot.
There are a couple nifty 4th level ranger spells that use your swifts or immediates (free trip attack, free bow attack, etc) but thats 13th level and the spells have their own downsides. I dunno, I think arcane strike is a good fit for a ranger.
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By Pathfinder RAW, nothing special happens when you drop from an 8 to a 7; you're just -2 now instead of -1. Hell, there are dwarves tromping all over the place with 5s. Their surly dispositions are probably why they're out adventuring with the likes of you in the first place.
I know, I was just explaining the way my group thinks about it and why I didn't want a 7. -2 is twice as bad as -1? (Totally not true :P)
I've been thinking about the drow feats and I don't think they are realistic for this character build - not because of the feat slots or the character concept, but just because I can't swing a 13 in Charisma. And its only the upper level abilities that make the chain worth it. Ah well.
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