Warpriest build and lonewolf play

[Saint Germaine]

If you click on the avatar, it will open up the basic character sheet. (I didn't include everything such as gear (all basic) and background (not really relevant).

Firstly, while building:

One thing I have realized as that most of the process felt extremely limiting and disappointing. I built this character using the PFS organized play rules, (no evil, starting GP = 150, Point Buy, etc. . .), and it really seemed that all of the options where "No, you do not qualify".

I wound up taking Toughness and Improved Init, because I really couldn't find anything else that really jump out at me. (I initially used HeroLab and Cleric, and one thing that I noticed was just how much I couldn't take at 1st level. No Channeling options, Feats, favored Class Features, Traits, etc. . . Not a huge deal, but on the cleric side, that really cuts out a lot of possible options, and some of them can only be taken at 1st level, such as Exalted of the Society.

I know that it has been mentioned that Favored Weapon will be added as a proficiency, but for now, I kept it as written and that means I am only proficient with it as a 2-Handed only martial Weapon. That means no shields for me.

It's still one of the most MAD classes there is. :( I highly suggest dropping Cha entirely from the class. More on that later, though.

Compared to the Cleric (similar focus and theme): it looks almost identical, but less. Skills are absolutely terrible. Cleric and Fighter are notorious, not only in the general game, but especially in PFS as the worst classes for skills. Neither really have the points to do what they really need to do just to be a member of their role. Warpriest takes that to another level, and all three basically have Int as a (basically needed) dumpstat, which hurts even more. This class rally needs to be, at min., 4+Int, and also probably needs to add Know Arcana back in. Know History and Nobility also seem much more thematic than Engineering, if for nothing else than to be able to identify military things, (armies, banners, units,) and religious and battle history.

Blessings: I went with Good and Nobility. Good is nice, but Nobility seems like the exact same thing as the Domain. If it's not, it's very close. Still I went with it over Destruction or Law, because I wanted to be able to diversify a tiny bit, and while Destruction is not bad, it also is the exact same thing as the most common buff in the game, Bards. Does the Blessing power for Good allow you to bypass Damage Reduction? It doesn't say that it acts like Holy, or that it is actually Blessed, it just deals an extra d6 vs Evil. So far, still almost identical to the Cleric, (just a bit worse).

Saves/HP/Att & Damage/AC: All identical to the Cleric, with the 1 exception that I got +3 HP for Toughness (and honestly I kind of felt forced to take it just 'cause I couldn't find anything better). There really is no point in having Heavy Armor at this early. Now, I DO ABSOLUTELY believe that they need Heavy Armor, but this class is a bit front loaded, and I highly suggest rolling Heavy Armor Prof into Sacred Armor @ 7th level. Even a Fighter is not really going to be looking at Plate until 3rd-5th level most of the time. Something really needs to be done here. It does not feel like a Cleric/Fighter, but like a slightly weaker Cleric (Crusader). If it is not identical, it is slightly worse, with the one exception that I think the Blessings Powers are a smidge better than Domain Powers (not counting spells here, just power to power). They are what Domains probably should have looked like, I think.

[In play (lone wolf style only, and not particularly heavy on the RP): Felt exactly like playing a Cleric (Crusader), just a tiny bit worse. I basically have 3 things I want to be able to do in a 1-3 round time frame, but I can only manage to do 1 of them.
A.) Move/Attack
B.) use Blessing
C.) use Buff/Spell
The longer I hold off on B or C, the less important they are. The more I don't do A, the more I might as well be a NPC "Healbot" sitting back while everyone else plays (in a non-solo game). Now, next level I will also be adding D.) Channel Energy, for yet another option I will want to use and just not have the ability to do so and also have fun. There simply needs to be some way to lighten the extreme burden of Action Economy here. Make all Blessings a Free or Swift action, or at the least a Move action. Give them some option to cast and move/single attack. Otherwise, what's the point? I'm really thinking that Channel Energy might not be for this class anyway. Probably remove it, and possibly add in something else in it's place like a Channel Smite -> Alignment channel sort of limited deal. I'm not sure. It sounds more in line, but at the same time that also seems pretty much like what a normal battle cleric or paladin might go for, so might want to try another direction?

Skills where just atrocious. Between MAD, Int Dumpstat, 2+crap per level, and an odd mesh of Class Skill, this is really going to disappoint, if not outright annoy players, particularly in PFS. 4+Int, or some sort of skill boosting class feature along the lines of the Inquisitor). It also really needs to drop Know Engineering for Know Arcana, History, and Nobility. I really think that Cha should be removed from the class equation entirely as well. This will one, cut down on the MAD, but also make it a little more different than the similar Paladin.

I already mentioned above choosing Feats was a bit of a pain, not qualifying for much I'd actually want. Probably needs to be a full BaB. It should probably also qualify for fighter Feats somehow, or have provisions that allow it to take Feats without qualifying.

Spells, on par with the Crusader Cleric, but lacking the minor option for a Domain spell. Trade off, but at the same time, this is one of the few mechanical ways that one Cleric/Warpriest is a smidge different from all other Cleric/Warpriests out there. I suggest allowing Domain spells to count as "Cleric spells" for what option the Warpriest can choose to prepare. Not that they get them for free, or that an extra slot, just the option to take them. Either all of them, or the ones that correspond to their chosen Blessing/Domain.

In summary: It really didn't feel particularly new or innovative. Granted, I only played around with level one, and a little theory crafting on leveling up some. I'll try out a scenario when I get a chance, which might change some things. All in all, I felt like it would have been better to just play my Cleric Crusader. I also have a Cleric/Barbarian that seems so much more useful all around. I wish I had a few Magus-like abilities to be able to synergize the class, but as is, it honestly feels like I'm playing a Fighter/Cleric, but not able to use too much of the different abilities together. Hands down, it absolutely needs some way to be able to use spells and Blessings, and also to be able to move and attack in a given round. Possibly in a limited times per day way. Might honestly consider tossing in some Paladin and Inquisitor spells, too, as they often seem more inline with what this class should be able to cast on themselves than the generic Cleric list, especially without Domain Spell options.

Feel free to point out things, offer ideas, or whatever, and when I get a chance, I'll post more in depth after a full scenario.

[Laerlorn]

I came to forums to looks advice what Feats to pick at first level. The extra combat feat is absolutely tricky to fill;

My bab is 0 (most combat feats require bab +1)

Looks like Combat Reflexes with my Dex 13 -.-

Maybe move the Bonus feats starting from level 2 instead. Now I feel I really have to waste a feat now. Luckily tho, in Society one can reroll the character at level 2..

[Saint Germaine]

So far, this has been a massive issue that I've noticed discussed. The three main suggestions I have seen are to multiclass with another +1BaB class at first level, and then go Warpriests thereafter, to push back the bonus Feats a level or two (which helps with the frontload, but also really makes the class even more lackluster in the end), and lastly (and officially denied) to give the class the +1 BaB it kind of needs anyway.

Actually 4, which is to allow the class to qualify for some feats as if they had +1BaB, or to ignore some prereqs.

All in all, I think #4 might be the best option, but when we see the new Playtest doc, maybe there will be some big improvements.

[ChainsawSam]

The Feat problem is exactly why I went Erastil and Longbow.

Having access to point blank shot, precise shot, and rapid fire eliminates the feat problem. However then your problem becomes that all the blessings suck for ranged weapons.

I tried marking up a Warpriest of Gorum for comparison and ran into feat issues. Your first level feats become a chore to pick out. Then once you've got Power Attack and Furious Focus, what else do you need really? Over the long term, picking up maneuver feats for a 3/4 BAB class feels wasteful and there aren't too many other Combat Feats that are all that appealing.

Qualifying for Fighter Feats would at least help the problem a bit.

[DM Beckett]

I agree. One of the main reasons I didn't go with Eristal is that I have a main PFS Cleric of Eristal and he is really on the stronger side.

I have also tried to build a Warpriest of Groetus, a concept I have really wanted to try but so far Cleric just doesn't do it. I was so disappointed I stopped half way through, (and to be fair, actually playing might have changed my mind, I'll never know).

I also have both an Inquisitor (6) and Cleric (9ish) of Sarenrae, and there is absolutely nothing this class can bring t the table vs either of those. I would love the Warpriest to become a Divine Magus, because so far that is the only suggestion I have seen that both makes the class viable and interesting. I really want to see what the revised version will look like, but I am not sure I will have a real chance to playtest it at that point.

[Saint Germaine]

Tried it again with the newer Warpriest, and in a lot of ways I encountered many of the same issues I had before. Skills in particular really need something, both in the sense of dropping a few Class Skills for others (Know Arcana & History), as well as either 4+Int or some class ability like the Inquisitor to get a scaling bonus to some intrinsic Skills. Another option would be to give each Blessing a associated Skill that counts as max ranks for the Warpriest that chooses it.

The MAD issue is still pretty terrible, and I still strongly suggest dropping Cha (and Channel Energy). For Negative Energy, Selective Channeling will be a very difficult but required Feat Tax (Cha 13, and can not qualify until 5th). In both cases that is really cutting into your very limited resources for an ability that is just not that great. One way to fix that is to change the way the Warpriest's Channel Energy works so that instead of affecting everything in 30ft, it instead affects only something like 1, plus 1 Target/4 Levels, +1 per Cha Mod, (not counting the Warpriest if they choose). So a 4th Level Warpriest with 12 Cha can Channel Energy and affect a max of 3 targets, in combat. Out of Combat, maybe everyone?

While I do agree that the original version was too front loaded, I kind of feel like this one went a bit too far. And I am not sure exactly how to fix that. It really doesn't feel like anything special until 2nd or 3rd level, just a kind of weaker Cleric and very generic. It is very restricted in picking options that will help make it look and feel different than most other generic Clerics or Warpriests, with the one exception of picking a ridiculous weapon like the Whip or Kukri (purely for min/max reasons), and being able to start outshining a Warpriest like the one I went with whose Favored Weapon is very martial orientated. Something really needs to be done about that. It should not be a better option to pick a normally inferior weapon over a normally superior (and vastly more appropriate) one, nor should those builds be rewarded for it, I think. If a dagger gets some sort of boost, than so should a Greatsword, even if minor, both because it makes conceptual sense, but also because I do not think there is a good reason to reward some weapons and not others in such an arbitrary way. At the very least, (and I believe this should be a general rule), there should be a trade off. If a Dagger gets a damage increase, it should loose something else as well (becoming a non-ranged 20/x2 weapon, for example and can't be changed once that choice is made).

Blessings. Two things really kind of need to be solved with them. There is still a (smaller) issue with action economy, and some of them just do not work well/too good or too meh. The fact that they do not offer any bonus spells options like Domains again cuts into this classes ability to differentiate itself from any and all other Warpriests, (giving it another very generic feel). I would suggest adding in some sort of Domain Spell like mechanic (not a free spell per day, just an ability to use a small handful of not normally Cleric spells) and to switch the majority of the Blessings to some sort of passive ongoing ability. Rather than allowing the Warpriest to cast another essentially spell-like ability that is going to compete with their action economy, instead make them minor auras. This would also really help out to establish them as "blessings" but also help to add a mechanical reason for why Warpriests are "calling upon his divine powers from the center of the fight, where his armor and martial skill can be put to the test." A reason for them to be at the center of a conflict rather than hanging back or a second-line warrior.

At many of the early and mid levels, even with Bonus Feats, the natural restrictions the class has (MAD, may or may not count as _____ for qualifying, and the fact that they get so many things that other classes do, but at much later levels which makes it either impossible or much more difficult to keep up with <can't take 1st level only Traits for them as you do not have the class features, can't take many Feats until too late, etc. . .>), and this class really has a hard time being sexy. It's workable, and not terrible, but it really feels like it is far too held back for what it could and should be. To many of it's abilities do not work together, but seem more to go off on their own, which means that the player is going to really need to split a lot of focus to make something work a lot less cool/fun than a normal Cleric or Fighter could most other things being equal.

All in all, it's, in some ways a large improvement over the original, but in others it seems to have taken a step or two backwards. I would love for the Warpriest to be able to both spontaneously cast Cure and Inflict Spells, and to be able to use those with Fervor. This would add a semi Divine Magus feel to the class, but not one that is strong enough to step on the actual Magus's toes, and could be used to make the "lay on hands" ability work similarly to, but different from the Paladin's ability, as well as help cut down on the many resource pools this class comes with. Which reminds me of another issue I discovered. As written, can a Warpriest drop a prepared spell and spontaneously cast a Cure (or Inflict) spell with Fervor?

"As a swift action, a warpriest can expend one use of this ability to cast any one warpriest spell he has prepared."

This line can be interpreted to indicate that no, it must be a prepared spell only. Was that the intent or not? Another issue I noticed is that the healing/hurting aspect of Fervor is not specifically called out as Positive/Negative Energy (while Channel is), meaning that a lot of things that might be used to boost it a little would not apply.