| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
{I am using my brothers account for this. He suggested I look through the forum to see if I was interested. }
Sorry if some of this was asked/stated before, but I have some difficulty figuring out some of this.
- Pathfinder Online – This is not actually released yet. Correct? Any schedule when?
- Beta - Has a beta been released yet? If so, how do I get involved?
- If no to beta, I really don’t understand much of what I’m reading. Have I got this correct that people are reserving their screen names, guild names, blood feuds, bounties, guild rules, ‘owned’ map territory, alliances, enemies, production chains, etc… before they’ve seen the product. That seems a bit bass-ackward to me, but ok I guess.
- What does ‘RPK’ stand for? I have seen that in several conversations used as an insult but am not familiar with that one. (If it is just abbreviations for cursing, I don’t really need the details.)
- Biggest question. Is the game really just going to mostly be PvP or prep support for others to do PvP?
To me Pathfinder (like D&D and most other RPG’s before it) was about a team of heroes getting together and cooperating to rescue the damsel in distress. Or whatever other heroic mission the GM thinks up. It is a cooperative thing where the players are working together to all have fun. It’s not about trying to be the biggest jack-hole and laugh about ruining someone else’s fun.
By no means all of them, but more and more of the posts I’ve read today seem to be that. “I’m going to be evil and wander around stomping on anyone I can get away with. If they’re not good enough and can’t handle it that’s their problem.” That really doesn’t sound like a lot of fun to me. And it doesn’t sound like an environment where I want to spend a lot of time. In fact it sounds pretty emotionally corrosive.
I play RPG’s to escape from the pressures and drags of daily life not to add to them. Certainly not to become them. Not saying I won’t give it a try, but some of this is not sounding promising.
Thanks in advance for any answers you can provide.
Goblin Squad Member
|
Welcome! Let me try to give you some background and answer some of your questions.
[list]Pathfinder Online – This is not actually released yet. Correct? Any schedule when?
No, the game is only in an early alpha state right now. There was a series of two Kickstarter campaigns that raised money towards the development of the game, which most of us (Everyone who has a little goblin next to our names) funded. Goblinworks is being very transparent with the development of the game, and we as a community are commenting on the stat of the game as it is, bringing up suggestions and giving feedback on what has been posted. One of the key draws of this game for us is the crowd-forging process, where the community has input into the game. That is why we are so active here when then game wont go in to early enrollment until next year.
Beta - Has a beta been released yet? If so, how do I get involved?
There is no beta as yet. There will be an "Early Enrollment" period beginning in Q4 2014. This period will allow limited players into the game and function in many ways as a beta. Many of the features will not be in the game at this point. However, unlike a normal beta, you must pay a subscription during this period, and there will be no wipe of character advancement when the game moves into Open Enrollment, or a normal release.
If no to beta, I really don’t understand much of what I’m reading. Have I got this correct that people are reserving their screen names, guild names, blood feuds, bounties, guild rules, ‘owned’ map territory, alliances, enemies, production chains, etc… before they’ve seen the product. That seems a bit bass-ackward to me, but ok I guess.
Again, it's crowd-forging. We are very excited for this game, and are talking about these things now so we can make sure they are there in-game next year.
What does ‘RPK’ stand for? I have seen that in several conversations used as an insult but am not familiar with that one. (If it is just abbreviations for cursing, I don’t really need the details.)
Random Player Kill. It's the lowest form of PVP player who just roams a game killing anyone he sees. It's not a desired playstyle in PFO.
Biggest question. Is the game really just going to mostly be PvP or prep support for others to do PvP?
To me Pathfinder (like D&D and most other RPG’s before it) was about a team of heroes getting together and cooperating to rescue the damsel in distress. Or whatever other heroic mission the GM thinks up. It is a cooperative thing where the players are working together to all have fun. It’s not about trying to be the biggest jack-hole and laugh about ruining someone else’s fun.
The focus of PFO is not the traditional D&D experience. IT is a game about meaningful social interaction and building settlements and kingdoms. It's a sandbox game at it's core, which means the player are free to do what they want to mound the game. One of the natural evolutions of building kingdoms and competition of resources will be conflict. TO that end PvP is a tool. That means you can expect to fight other player to the death. But goblinworks is committed to making it so that you are fighting for a meaningful reason, and there will be very harsh consequences for those that play the "be the biggest jack-hole and laugh about ruining someone else’s fun" game.
That said, there will be monsters roaming the countryside, and if they are left alone too long the will escalate into a horde that will attack all surrounding settlements. Eventually, there will be traditional dungeon content put into the game as well, but that will be a long ways off.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
quick answers
* Not released, not beta, still in design phase. But the devs are giving out info and listening to ideas ("crowdforging").
* Buying the product before it is made is typical for kickstarter. The guilds you see are generally pre-existing ones. Screen names are so far only for forums. Discussions on production, bounties etc are all on the game design level. For many of us, having input in the game design is much more exciting that picking up a finished product (we're old enough that a year of waiting passes quickly).
* RPK = Random Player Killing (or Killer). ie killing people for no obvious reasons. What that includes is heavily debated.
* PvP vs stories: this is a very hot topic. There is general agreement that some conflict is needed to drive the game, but that large-scale cooperation will be critical to achieve big things. There is also agreement that when picked up by the mass market it will be flooded by mmo gamers (outnumbering the pathfinder fans).
The 'I wanna be evil' crowd is visible and loud, but not very big. In the correct amount they will be a great asset to the game - but in overdose they will kill it. What the correct amount is, is also heavily debated.
EDIT: flat-footed by Imbicatus. Gotta get higher init bonus.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Welcome! I'm sure someone handier than I am with links will be along in a bit, but rather than let you site around waiting, a few words from the non-techie, non-PvP side of the playerbase:
(1) No, PfO hasn't been released yet. They're working on it, and alpha should be starting sometime in 2014 with "beta" (we're calling it Early Enrollment, as there will be no character wipe at the end of it) following some time afterward, although hopefully still in 2014.
(2) You're seeing a lot of guild formations, names and so forth because most of the posters here backed at least one of the Kickstarters which funded PfO's deveopment, and that gives us both the chance to reserve a character name (nothing's official yet, but we're taking the chance to introduce ourselves thusly) and a spot in Early Enrollment. And since PfO will be heavily group-oriented, it makes a lot of sense to start organizing those groups now.
(3) I am very definitely a non-PvPer, and I'm still excited about the game. I think there will be a role for people like me - and keep in mind that as long as you don't wander around in the wilderness alone, you will have backup in the event you are attacked. (Which is a selling point for being either very valuable to everyone, and thus unlikely to be ganked, or to be part of an active guild, and thus be guaranteed a group to hang out with).
Check out the GoblinWorks blog - the latest one is linked in a thread on this page of the forums - and continue to ask questions. We like seeing new "faces"!
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
You've got several answers ahead of me, so I'll just add another welcome. We hope you'll stick around to learn and discuss.
If you've missed it, the thread [link follows]Community-Greetings-Guild-Recruitment--you'll see it referred to as the Nihimonicon, after its creator and maintainer--is a great place to start getting basic and important info. Deianira's idea is a great one: start with [another link follows]the blog, and you'll see the official word on many aspects. If you want to learn in the order we did, start at the bottom and work up.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
You've got several answers ahead of me, so I'll just add another welcome. We hope you'll stick around to learn and discuss. If you've missed it, the thread [link follows]Community-Greetings-Guild-Recruitment--you'll see it referred to as the Nihimonicon, after its creator and maintainer--is a great place to start getting basic and important info.
Deianira's idea is a great one: start with [another link follows]the blog, and you'll see the official word on many aspects. If you want to learn in the order we did, start at the bottom and work up.
Ah hah! I knew a linky-adept would show up eventually!
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
{I am using my brothers account for this. He suggested I look through the forum to see if I was interested. }
Sorry if some of this was asked/stated before, but I have some difficulty figuring out some of this.
- Pathfinder Online – This is not actually released yet. Correct? Any schedule when?
- Beta - Has a beta been released yet? If so, how do I get involved?
- If no to beta, I really don’t understand much of what I’m reading. Have I got this correct that people are reserving their screen names, guild names, blood feuds, bounties, guild rules, ‘owned’ map territory, alliances, enemies, production chains, etc… before they’ve seen the product. That seems a bit bass-ackward to me, but ok I guess.
- What does ‘RPK’ stand for? I have seen that in several conversations used as an insult but am not familiar with that one. (If it is just abbreviations for cursing, I don’t really need the details.)
- Biggest question. Is the game really just going to mostly be PvP or prep support for others to do PvP?
To me Pathfinder (like D&D and most other RPG’s before it) was about a team of heroes getting together and cooperating to rescue the damsel in distress. Or whatever other heroic mission the GM thinks up. It is a cooperative thing where the players are working together to all have fun. It’s not about trying to be the biggest jack-hole and laugh about ruining someone else’s fun.
By no means all of them, but more and more of the posts I’ve read today seem to be that. “I’m going to be evil and wander around stomping on anyone I can get away with. If they’re not good enough and can’t handle it that’s their problem.” That really doesn’t sound like a lot of fun to me. And it doesn’t sound like an environment where I want to spend a lot of time. In fact it sounds pretty emotionally corrosive.
I play RPG’s to escape from the pressures and drags of daily life not to add to them. Certainly not to become them. Not saying I won’t give it a try, but some of this is not sounding promising.
Welcome :)
Some new posters have found Guild Recruitment & Helpful Links helpful. The list of Goblinworks Blogs gives a quick description of each that might help you quickly find what you're most interested in.
___________________________________________________________
Early Enrollment is basically a Paid Beta with limited access. Open Enrollment is the full launch, when the cap on the number of new players allowed per month will be lifted.
Our current plan is that we'll begin Early Enrollment in Q3 of 2014, and Open Enrollment in Q1 of 2016.
The Fulfillment Tool will allow folks who missed the Kickstarter to get into Early Enrollment. There is no real schedule for it, but I would imagine it will be available before Early Enrollment begins.
You MAY be able to buy an account with Destiny's Twin when we open the Fulfillment Tool. This is envisioned as a way to allow people who missed the Kickstarter to get some (but not all) of the benefits we offered to Kickstarters directly. It is a virtual certainty that at some point we will start removing options from the Fulfillment tool, and by the time we get to Early Enrollment, many benefits, almost certainly including Destiny's Twin, will be unavailable.
___________________________________________________________
RPK stands for Random Player Killer. Most RPKers like to argue that it's not "random" but most people understand the term pretty well. The reason it's an important topic is because one of the major aspects of Pathfinder Online is its focus on minimizing that kind of behavior, and funneling players into more meaningful PvP.
Ryan Dancey, Goblinworks CEO, highlighted this post of Andius's on the front-page of the Kickstarter. It's still there.
4. More Than A Gankfest- Unlike other Open World PVP MMO's currently on the market, Pathfinder Online actively discourages meaningless PVP. A meaningful alignment system that actually offers mechanical advantages to lawful and good aligned organizations, and a functional bounty system that allows the player to choose which players and organizations can collect the bounties they set discourages random and meaningless killing. Beyond this, the admins are taking a hard stance against 'griefing', in which players specifically seek to ruin the experience of other players, often through using game mechanics in ways that weren't intended. Griefing in PFO can be a bannable offence.
I think you're 100% right when you call it "emotionally corrosive". And I think Ryan Dancey agrees with you, and it's why he's spent so much effort trying to make people understand his vision for "meaningful" PvP. Yes, there are a lot of folks who like to brag about being jerks, and they're very vocal with their doom-and-gloom predictions about how Ryan will fail to minimize that kind of meaningless PvP, but there are always jerks on internet forums and it's best just to ignore them. (A tall order, certainly)
Here's a very recent statement of Ryan that really captures the essence of it all:
The reputation system inflicts collective punishment for the behavior of individuals. Since the quality and nature of the structures in your Settlement is dependent on your reputation, and the abilities of your characters are dependent on the quality and nature of the structures in your Settlement, if a character is eroding your reputation and thus degrading the quality and nature of the structures in your Settlement, every character in the Settlement is affected.
So reputation will drive the collective to expel people who refuse to conform to the collective's will with regard to reputation.
The alignment system segregates players. It drives players with similar playstyles together. If we do a good job of making you make meaningful choices with regard to things like Settlement building selection and how grouping works at various scales, people who want to play an alignment in one corner of the graph will have a very hard time being in the same Settlement as people in the opposite corner of the graph.
Therefore, characters who behave in a manner consistent with CE will tend to group together. CE behavior will be consistent with low reputation. Low reputation Settlements will produce characters that are disadvantaged vs. other kinds of Settlements because the quality and nature of the structures in CE Settlements will suck.
We're creating a funnel that pushes people who act like jerks into a situation where they are stuck playing with other jerks, and one cost for being a jerk is that they are less powerful than people who are not jerks. If some non-jerks who want to be CE "just because" get swept up in that funnel, frankly, I'm ok with that. I'd rather have a very good and effective jerk funnel that unfortunately traps a few non-jerks than a wide open playing field for jerks that relies solely on moderation and community peer pressure to control bad behavior.
(And frankly, I think it will be reasonably hard to be CE and not be a jerk)
___________________________________________________________
Again, welcome to the forums. Reading your questions and the things that interest you, I think you'll fit in very well. Feel free to ask any questions; there are lots of folks around who are interested in answering them in a friendly manner. Or feel free to PM me, I'm practically obsessed with trying to answer questions in a friendly manner :)
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Biggest question. Is the game really just going to mostly be PvP or prep support for others to do PvP?
To me Pathfinder (like D&D and most other RPG’s before it) was about a team of heroes getting together and cooperating to rescue the damsel in distress. Or whatever other heroic mission the GM thinks up. It is a cooperative thing where the players are working together to all have fun. It’s not about trying to be the biggest jack-hole and laugh about ruining someone else’s fun.By no means all of them, but more and more of the posts I’ve read today seem to be that. “I’m going to be evil and wander around stomping on anyone I can get away with. If they’re not good enough and can’t handle it that’s their problem.” That really doesn’t sound like a lot of fun to me. And it doesn’t sound like an environment where I want to spend a lot of time. In fact it sounds pretty emotionally corrosive.
I play RPG’s to escape from the pressures and drags of daily life not to add to them. Certainly not to become them. Not saying I won’t give it a try, but some of this is not sounding promising.
There is certainly a risk that this game becomes all about who can kill each other the most. But there are significant portions of the community dedicated to 'Being the heroes'. Some of the bigger organizations are actually dedicating themselves to providing safe regions that feel more like the collaborative Pathfinder TT experience.
If no to beta, I really don’t understand much of what I’m reading. Have I got this correct that people are reserving their screen names, guild names, blood feuds, bounties, guild rules, ‘owned’ map territory, alliances, enemies, production chains, etc… before they’ve seen the product. That seems a bit bass-ackward to me, but ok I guess.
Our early dedication is largely excitement and also to help build the game hype up as it comes along. Some discussion has already led to changes in the approach to some aspects of the game. Other discussions are largely cheerleading the developers.
Screen names - not really reserving, but many of us have our initial character names and personalities in mind. Much as you would create a character for Pathfinder before sitting at the table.
Blood Feuds/Enemies/Allies - Potentially. Our discussion gets us into mindsets of how each other wishes to play and where our natural in-game conflicts and areas to cooperate may arise.
Guild Rules - Flexible based on final game design, but having them helps serve as a guideline for how the group will function which can be critical for recruitment.
'Owned' map territory - Again, no one is reserving anything yet. Though large groups of kickstarter backers will be able to have some first picks when the Landrush system kicks in.
Production Chains - We talk a lot about what they might look like and who may wish to fit in where, but we are not reserving any yet.
A lot of these plans are very, very fluid. As news comes out of the development teams, all of the above is able to shift to accommodate.
... The 'I wanna be evil' crowd is visible and loud, but not very big. ...
I hope you are correct. I've tried other games where everyone assured me that 'those guys' were the minority. But they were enough to make me give up on the game.
...Therefore, characters who behave in a manner consistent with CE will tend to group together. CE behavior will be consistent with low reputation. Low reputation Settlements will produce characters that are disadvantaged vs. other kinds of Settlements because the quality and nature of the structures in CE Settlements will suck....
Ok, to me this is really intriguing. I've not seen anything like it before as far as I can remember. Sounds like an excellent idea. I hope it works well in practice.
-------------------------------------
Thanks for all the responses. Sounds better than I feared from my initial read through reactions.
I'm not sure I could hold onto the enthusiasm of you pre-adopters for what looks to be years before the product comes out. Good on you...
I think I'll lurk around abit more. Maybe check into the "Fulfillment Tool" to see if I might want in.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Fill your boots, my friend, on these very introductionary/high-level places to form a context of the game and details you requested in general:
Video (Ryan Dancey, CEO of Goblinworks): PaizoCon Pathfinder Online Presentation
Goblinworks FAQ page: PFO FAQ
How is Pathfinder Online different from World of Warcraft or any other fantasy MMO?
Most fantasy MMOs, including World of Warcraft, are "theme park" games. In theme parks, you're expected to work your way through a lot of scripted content until you reach the end, and then you play end-game content while you wait for the developers to release more theme park content so you can continue to advance your character.
The other end of the MMO spectrum is the "sandbox" game. In sandboxes, you're given a lot of tools and opportunities to create persistency in the world, then turned loose to explore, develop, find adventure, and dominate the world as you wish. You and the other players generate the primary content of the game by struggling with each other for resources, honor and territory. There is no "end game" and no level cap.
Pathfinder Online is a sandbox game with theme park elements. You'll be able to create your own place in the world of Golarion, complete with complex social and economic systems. You'll form ad-hoc or permanent groups ranging in size from small parties to large settlements and even huge nations, and interact with others in your world in a realistic, unscripted fashion. You'll also be able to participate in scripted adventures, though, with the outcome of those adventures helping to determine the shape of your world.
Also this email exchange answers your implicit question within the actual question asked, it's really worth reading to understand why the choices made from making a TT game to making video-game for massively-multiplayer online entertainment were made in summary:
Tabletop to Desktop: Making Wizards Work in Pathfinder Online
Greg Tito, Warcry: Pathfinder Online is obviously based on the tabletop RPG from Paizo, but it is a videogame first and foremost. How are you guys balancing those two very different styles of games?
Ryan Dancey, CEO of Goblinworks: There are four differences that we have to address.
The first is realtime vs. tabletop. On the tabletop players can take an arbitrarily long time to make a decision. This creates a syndrome sometimes known as "packing 20 minutes of fun into 4 hours". The upside is that each player can take the time to cross-reference rules, talk about strategy with other players, and make use of very complex interdependent game mechanics. Online, the players have to act in near-realtime. They have to be able to make decisions quickly, which means that the options we can present them have to be limited. They also need to be reasonably sure that whatever they attempt to do will work, that they won't just be wasting their opportunity to act while someone with a more comprehensive grasp of the game mechanic beats them down.
What we've sought to do is preserve the classic "six seconds" of game time mechanism. On the tabletop, each combat "round" is assumed to take 6 seconds (regardless of how much realtime is consumed). Online, we're building our game mechanic around the idea that your character can do something meaningful every six seconds, which is a fast enough pace to keep the game fluid and interesting, but slow enough to give players time to make interesting tactical decisions and to avoid the "whoever is fastest on the trigger wins" problem. You'll still have to act quickly, and with precision, but you'll have enough time to make interesting choices rather than just mash buttons as fast as possible.
The second is scale. On the tabletop the game consists of a small number of players who are assumed to be responsible for a small number of characters. The size of the player social graph and character social graph is very constrained. Online, that social graph explodes. Suddenly we have to accommodate dozens, up to hundreds and potentially thousands of social interactions. On the tabletop it is ok if a character can deliver overwhelming force because they have to in order to facilitate small group success against large numbers of opponents. Online, that rapidly unbalances the game, so each character's power needs to be moderated. The solution to overcoming large numbers of opponents is to assemble and equally large opposing force. Managing the kinds of interactions required to make that work requires all sorts of systems not present in the tabletop game. Tabletop games have "groups", but the Online game adds persistent chartered companies, settlements, armies and kingdoms as well. Each of those social structures requires new management tools and interesting game mechanics to enable them to function.
The third is scope. The tabletop game is focused on adventuring heroes who typically engage in what we would call "PvE" experiences. The Online game is a superset of that, and brings in a wide and diverse range of new character archetypes: crafters, harvesters, diplomats, spies, leaders of large social organizations, etc. The Online game focuses on meaningful human interactions - which some would reduce to "PvP" (although frankly, that's a very narrow view of the concept and one we tend to reject as being too small for our vision). The tabletop game has few rules that govern interactions between players so we need to design those systems for the Online game. The Online game has to provide as diverse and interesting a range of game mechanics for all those new character types as it does for the classic adventurers. Essentially what we are doing is removing most of the NPCs from the game world and replacing them with player characters, and in order to make that experience satisfying for those players we have to invest in game development of systems and content that reward them for their investment of time in the game.
The last is length. The tabletop game is designed to allow you to advance a character from "normal peasant farmer" to "god" in about a year and a half of regular weekly play. Moving through the various ranges of power presents opportunities for the tabletop game to present players with interesting new experiences on a regular basis, and then when a given character has reached full potential, to be gracefully retired and for the cycle to begin all over again with a new group of characters. The Online game is designed around the idea that you will play the same character for many years of time, you'll never want to retire one, and that you'll be interacting with many characters much younger (in game experience) than yours, without you gaining a material mechanical advantage that overwhelms those less experienced characters. This requires us to operate the game in a much more narrow power band than the tabletop game. Instead of "+1" bonuses, we're going to be working in fractions of "1", and that has lots of effects on the underlying math of the game systems.
In the end what we want is for someone who is familiar with the tabletop game to be quickly able to familiarize themselves with the Online game, and for much of their knowledge about how the game system works to be useful to them in understanding the Online game. They should have a sense that they're still well within a comfort zone while playing the Online game, especially the closer they get to playing a tabletop-style adventuring hero in a small group. We also want people who are coming to the game from an MMO background to find nothing lacking, and to be delighted at our approach to solving the kinds of problems that have been challenges in previous sandbox MMO experiences.
Greg Tito, Warcry: Adaptation is hard. Are you attempting to deliver the "spirit" of the original Pathfinder game?
Ryan Dancey, CEO of Goblinworks: Yes, that's exactly what we're focusing on. The rules of D20 and the mechanics of the tabletop just aren't suited for the Online environment. But we can absolutely capture much of the "spirit" in the way we approach the design of the Online game.
Comparisons have been made to the Kingmaker Campaign Adventure Path of Pathfinder, notably, also from the TT/PnP pov. For the pov of a MMORPG you could also read: EVE Online and the meaning of 'sandbox'
To discuss further would go beyond the scope of introduction as it's already "information overload". ;)