Am I the only one who thinks the basic concept of the Hunter is pretty well covered by the Summoner?Don't forget Druid, Ranger, Inquisitor and Cavalier either.
In their current design, Hunters are much worse than any of those classes... Except, maybe, Cavaliers.
Wait, since when can Inquisitors get a pet? Aside from Eldritch Heritage, I mean.
Animal domain
Thanks. I forgot Inquisitors could take domain powers, and not just Inquisitions...
Animal domainThanks. I forgot Inquisitors could take domain powers, and not just Inquisitions...
Or Feather Domain, which also gives them a huge bonus to Perception.
Now the Inquisitor adds half his level to Intimidate, Sense Motive, Perception and, possibly, Knowledge checks as well. :D
We ran one playtest with a 5th-level Hunter, and the Hunter stole the show. She was built with 17str, 14dex, 14con, 10int, 14wis, 10cha; mithril breastplate and Tribal Scars feat for 35-ft speed; the Andoran Captain's Blade trait for Acrobatics; scythe for main weapon; a tiger companion; and the precise strike teamwork feat. With the Hunter and tiger both being fairly speedy and acrobatic, they easily got into flank with one another, and once they were there they just ripped things to shreds.
There definitely needs to be more teamwork feats to chose from... too many of them are designed for adjacent fighting rather than flank-buddy fighting. We had fun with the flavor of the scythe... made the Hunter a cloaked Death figure and the tiger more of a black puma... but I do think it makes sense to widen the weapon choices, and of course being able to wear metal armor but not metal shields is just silly. All in all though it was a fun class, and I think well worth giving up the wildshape.
Can you elaborate? You say stole the show; what were the other classes? Was it a combat situation only? Did you try not combat situations? What were the enemies that you were facing? Tricks taught?
Thanks in advance! It's important that the Hunter is explored from both a battle and a non-combat perspective. Many of the Paizo APs are approximately half investigation/explorations and half combat.
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We ran one playtest with a 5th-level Hunter, and the Hunter stole the show. She was built with 17str, 14dex, 14con, 10int, 14wis, 10cha; mithril breastplate and Tribal Scars feat for 35-ft speed; the Andoran Captain's Blade trait for Acrobatics; scythe for main weapon; a tiger companion; and the precise strike teamwork feat. With the Hunter and tiger both being fairly speedy and acrobatic, they easily got into flank with one another, and once they were there they just ripped things to shreds.
There definitely needs to be more teamwork feats to chose from... too many of them are designed for adjacent fighting rather than flank-buddy fighting. We had fun with the flavor of the scythe... made the Hunter a cloaked Death figure and the tiger more of a black puma... but I do think it makes sense to widen the weapon choices, and of course being able to wear metal armor but not metal shields is just silly. All in all though it was a fun class, and I think well worth giving up the wildshape.
This is exactly the kind of playtest report I feared seeing.
Let me ask the obvious question:
What did you get from being a Hunter over, say, a Druid? It looks to me like it was only Precise Strike. So, because you had fun flanking with your tiger, you think a teamwork feat was well worth trading Wildshape? I just want this to be in context--+1d6 damage when flanking was worth losing spells and wildshape? Especially considering that you could have just taken Precise Strike with your normal feats...
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This is exactly the kind of playtest report I feared seeing.
Let me ask the obvious question:
What did you get from being a Hunter over, say, a Druid? It looks to me like it was only Precise Strike. So, because you had fun flanking with your tiger, you think a teamwork feat was well worth trading Wildshape? I just want this to be in context--+1d6 damage when flanking was worth losing spells and wildshape? Especially considering that you could have just taken Precise Strike with your normal feats...
Hunters get Orisons and Spells, the highest they can cast is 6th level spells.
Hunters get Orisons and Spells, the highest they can cast is 6th level spells.This is exactly the kind of playtest report I feared seeing.
Let me ask the obvious question:
What did you get from being a Hunter over, say, a Druid? It looks to me like it was only Precise Strike. So, because you had fun flanking with your tiger, you think a teamwork feat was well worth trading Wildshape? I just want this to be in context--+1d6 damage when flanking was worth losing spells and wildshape? Especially considering that you could have just taken Precise Strike with your normal feats...
Yes, exactly, so they lose both 3 levels of spells and the speed of the Druid's spell progression.
I thought...
-Druid class feature
For class image, Nature sense and Trackless step should be added.
Spontaneous Casting may so.
-There should be mystical linkage between Hunter and her Companion.
Empathic link, Speak with master, and Scry on companion (like familiar).
Life link, Bond sense, Master's Call(maker's call), Eidolon's link.
At 11th level, companion may gain some template like Paladin's mount.
-Animal Focus
Rat -> fort save
Fox -> ref save
Vermin -> will save
Turtle -> natural armor
Hedgehog -> CMD
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-Hunter's feat
Quick Focus: three times per day, Hunter may take on or change her Animal Focus ability as immediate action.
We ran one playtest with a 5th-level Hunter, and the Hunter stole the show. She was built with 17str, 14dex, 14con, 10int, 14wis, 10cha; mithril breastplate and Tribal Scars feat for 35-ft speed; the Andoran Captain's Blade trait for Acrobatics; scythe for main weapon; a tiger companion; and the precise strike teamwork feat. With the Hunter and tiger both being fairly speedy and acrobatic, they easily got into flank with one another, and once they were there they just ripped things to shreds.
There definitely needs to be more teamwork feats to chose from... too many of them are designed for adjacent fighting rather than flank-buddy fighting. We had fun with the flavor of the scythe... made the Hunter a cloaked Death figure and the tiger more of a black puma... but I do think it makes sense to widen the weapon choices, and of course being able to wear metal armor but not metal shields is just silly. All in all though it was a fun class, and I think well worth giving up the wildshape.
Having a built-in flank buddy may undo 2 lost points of BAB at low levels but that ain't gonna fly later on, especially when the animal companion starts falling behind in HD too.
I would say (and have said!) that giving the Hunter more betterer flanking bonuses or some equivalent would be a good idea. But hey: bow people get all antsy in their pantsy when you say that (though I have also suggested sort of flanking-like bonuses that can be achieved evene at range).
But yeah: that does sound like a pretty good level 5 build now that you mention it.
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So, a 5th level Hunter vs. a 5th level Druid with identical stats (and even assuming the Druid does not want to wildshape in combat):
Both have:
Identical BAB, two good saves (I won't even point out that Will is better to have than Ref), same HP, same skills, same armor/weapon proficiencies, Wild Empathy, Woodland Stride, and an identical pet.
Hunter has:
-Two uses of a short buff that is duplicated by a much longer duration spell both classes can cast anyway and by items both could afford
-One teamwork feat and the ability to treat the animal as having it, too
-+2 to Survival rolls to track
-One additional 1st level spell
Druid has:
-+2 to all Survival and Knowledge: Nature rolls
-Trackless Step
-Extra resistance to Fey stuff and plant spells
-Wildshape, which doesn't necessarily have to be used in combat, but can easily outdo the non-combat uses of Animal Aspect by getting a climb, swim, or fly speed with ease that lasts hours instead of minutes as well as allowing scouting and stealth
-The ability to cast a 3rd level spell, which can provide a significant buff or utility effect
-The ability to spontaneously turn any spell slots into summoned creatures for some more firepower if needed or some specific solution they group needs (short duration scouting, burrowing, flying, etc.).
All I'm saying is that the character that stole the show would have stole the show as a Druid as well, possibly moreso thanks to their 3rd level spell and utility Wildshaping.
As it stands now, I just don't see the point of this class--everything it does can be done with a Druid with the sole exception of the teamwork thing. Sure, it's stronger than pretty much every class that doesn't have 6th or higher level spells, but that's a symptom of magic>everything else, and doesn't mean the class is worthwhile at the moment.
This is an honest question:
Does anyone in this thread think that the teamwork feats/hunter's tactics are equal in value to better spell progression and wild shape (even if you only use Wildshape for utility)?
I honestly doubt it Mpl.
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I believed I mentioned this earlier but a name change to something more evokative of an animal trainer (aka beastmaster) converting the character to a more support role while making the animal the combat heavy is also something people seem to be digging.
Also since people seem to be digging on it now I'm going to say it again, magical beast, aberration, and dragon options that have 2 Int. Let them have those special abilities like a basilisk with it's gaze or a drake with some breath weapons would be awesome. Hell even letting normal animals take like half dragon templates would be cool. On the new creatures front the initial page cost wouldn't be too bad since they wouldn't have to reprint the old growth sheet for animal companions since they have mentioned before that they are assuming customers already have the PFC. All you have to do is print out about a dozen simple magical beast stat blocks like they did in the pfc for normal ACs and mention that you use d10's, a Fighters BAB, and the changed saves and you're fine.
I believed I mentioned this earlier but a name change to something more evokative of an animal trainer (aka beastmaster) converting the character to a more support role while making the animal the combat heavy is also something people seem to be digging.
Also since people seem to be digging on it now I'm going to say it again, magical beast, aberration, and dragon options that have 2 Int. Let them have those special abilities like a basilisk with it's gaze or a drake with some breath weapons would be awesome. Hell even letting normal animals take like half dragon templates would be cool. On the new creatures front the initial page cost wouldn't be too bad since they wouldn't have to reprint the old growth sheet for animal companions since they have mentioned before that they are assuming customers already have the PFC. All you have to do is print out about a dozen simple magical beast stat blocks like they did in the pfc for normal ACs and mention that you use d10's, a Fighters BAB, and the changed saves and you're fine.
I sort of like the teamwork feat direction in that the hunter "buffs" by fighting with the animal companion. It is just not enough buff.
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I sort of like the teamwork feat direction in that the hunter "buffs" by fighting with the animal companion. It is just not enough buff.I believed I mentioned this earlier but a name change to something more evokative of an animal trainer (aka beastmaster) converting the character to a more support role while making the animal the combat heavy is also something people seem to be digging.
Also since people seem to be digging on it now I'm going to say it again, magical beast, aberration, and dragon options that have 2 Int. Let them have those special abilities like a basilisk with it's gaze or a drake with some breath weapons would be awesome. Hell even letting normal animals take like half dragon templates would be cool. On the new creatures front the initial page cost wouldn't be too bad since they wouldn't have to reprint the old growth sheet for animal companions since they have mentioned before that they are assuming customers already have the PFC. All you have to do is print out about a dozen simple magical beast stat blocks like they did in the pfc for normal ACs and mention that you use d10's, a Fighters BAB, and the changed saves and you're fine.
I'm talking about including the teamwork feats on top of the improvements I've discussed above. As it stands the teamwork feats we have aren't that substantial and the design team has already talked about adding more. I would love to see us not only get some more feats that allow hunters to fire into the mayhem their animal companion is in but maybe also allowing them to treat others as if they have their teamwork feats in order to activate them.
I'm talking about including the teamwork feats on top of the improvements I've discussed above. As it stands the teamwork feats we have aren't that substantial and the design team has already talked about adding more. I would love to see us not only get some more feats that allow hunters to fire into the mayhem their animal companion is in but maybe also allowing them to treat others as if they have their teamwork feats in order to activate them.I sort of like the teamwork feat direction in that the hunter "buffs" by fighting with the animal companion. It is just not enough buff.I believed I mentioned this earlier but a name change to something more evokative of an animal trainer (aka beastmaster) converting the character to a more support role while making the animal the combat heavy is also something people seem to be digging.
Also since people seem to be digging on it now I'm going to say it again, magical beast, aberration, and dragon options that have 2 Int. Let them have those special abilities like a basilisk with it's gaze or a drake with some breath weapons would be awesome. Hell even letting normal animals take like half dragon templates would be cool. On the new creatures front the initial page cost wouldn't be too bad since they wouldn't have to reprint the old growth sheet for animal companions since they have mentioned before that they are assuming customers already have the PFC. All you have to do is print out about a dozen simple magical beast stat blocks like they did in the pfc for normal ACs and mention that you use d10's, a Fighters BAB, and the changed saves and you're fine.
I still like firing into melee being locked behind feats. It is one of the things that balances the might of ranged fighting (full attacking all the time) against melee.
Maybe you will like something I suggested earlier: granting attack (and maybe damage) bonuses for the animal companion and Hunter, granted that the hunter and animal companion has landed an attack on the targeted enemy in the last two turns. (sort of analogous to improved flanking but it works for melee and ranged attacks)
I'm talking about including the teamwork feats on top of the improvements I've discussed above. As it stands the teamwork feats we have aren't that substantial and the design team has already talked about adding more. I would love to see us not only get some more feats that allow hunters to fire into the mayhem their animal companion is in but maybe also allowing them to treat others as if they have their teamwork feats in order to activate them.I sort of like the teamwork feat direction in that the hunter "buffs" by fighting with the animal companion. It is just not enough buff.I believed I mentioned this earlier but a name change to something more evokative of an animal trainer (aka beastmaster) converting the character to a more support role while making the animal the combat heavy is also something people seem to be digging.
Also since people seem to be digging on it now I'm going to say it again, magical beast, aberration, and dragon options that have 2 Int. Let them have those special abilities like a basilisk with it's gaze or a drake with some breath weapons would be awesome. Hell even letting normal animals take like half dragon templates would be cool. On the new creatures front the initial page cost wouldn't be too bad since they wouldn't have to reprint the old growth sheet for animal companions since they have mentioned before that they are assuming customers already have the PFC. All you have to do is print out about a dozen simple magical beast stat blocks like they did in the pfc for normal ACs and mention that you use d10's, a Fighters BAB, and the changed saves and you're fine.
This is a real problem for playtesting. If they are going to add a bunch of really sexy teamwork feats, alright. I mean, what would a fighter look like without being able to see fighter specific feats and limiting to only the core rulebook. We have only a handful of teamwork feats and most are so focused that they don't really stack well.
If teamwork feats are getting a big injection of awesome, then it changes how this class reads (as well as makes cavaliers and inquisitors better). Its like trying to talk about a spell list without seeing the spells and just seeing the progression.
But even if teamwork feats are twice as good in this book than they were before... you still lose too much from druid to make this class stand up as a real serious option. I don't mind it being weaker than druid. Druids are amazing and Tier 1 without question, but since they are SO similar, it is hard to find a reason to take this class instead.
If the Hunter did not have spells, and was created with a more martial focus, then I could probably see where the trope would be, but with Boon Companion the class is once again invalidated by the Ranger.
There really needs to be a serious distinction between the Hunter and its parent classes. Frankly, there have been a lot of people asking for or homebrewing a shapshifter class... and I wonder why this was the direction they went....
I also know that a lot of Rangers see their companion as a bit of a liability at higher levels and would like a better replacement (since the other hunters bond option is pretty yucky)
I am just struggling to see where this class fits. If it is a druidic version of Summoner... it is WAY behind in power, in options, in strength of theme and in flavor.
This is a real problem for playtesting. If they are going to add a bunch of really sexy teamwork feats, alright. I mean, what would a fighter look like without being able to see fighter specific feats and limiting to only the core rulebook. We have only a handful of teamwork feats and most are so focused that they don't really stack well.If teamwork feats are getting a big injection of awesome, then it changes how this class reads (as well as makes cavaliers and inquisitors better). Its like trying to talk about a spell list without seeing the spells and just seeing the progression.
But even if teamwork feats are twice as good in this book than they were before... you still lose too much from druid to make this class stand up as a real serious option. I don't mind it being weaker than druid. Druids are amazing and Tier 1 without question, but since they are SO similar, it is hard to find a reason to take this class instead.
If the Hunter did not have spells, and was created with a more martial focus, then I could probably see where the trope would be, but with Boon Companion the class is once again invalidated by the Ranger.
There really needs to be a serious distinction between the Hunter and its parent classes. Frankly, there have been a lot of people asking for or homebrewing a shapshifter class... and I wonder why this was the direction they went....
I also know that a lot of Rangers see their companion as a bit of a liability at higher levels and would like a better replacement (since the other hunters bond option is pretty yucky)
I am just struggling to see where this class fits. If it is a druidic version of Summoner... it is WAY behind in power, in options, in strength of theme and in flavor.
I would slow your roll before calling the buff hunter's bond weak. You can cast a spell to make any enemy count as your favored enemy and then give that bonus to all your allies. Then--unlike a bard--you can actually be useful in the fight after the buffs go up. I always build for the buff unless I want a wolf friend.
And do people really think the animal companion is a liability after boon companion? That surprises me. You can get that guy pretty enchanted at higher levels. It is maybe suboptimal but I would definitely put it in the assets column.
An additional note on the summoner comparison: I think the hope is that the teamwork feats and better spell/armor/weapons list offsets the weaker companion (which I don't think it does).
Oh I would put it in the asset column as well, but I think the people who have discussed the ranger in this way have avoided making any investments into their companion. personally I love them. The other use of Hunters Bond isn't bad, but I like pets so I always go that route anyway.
I think that the issue has always been that archtypes that replace the AC never give enough in exchange, and I know there are players who don't want to use an AC and also don't like the Hunter's Bond buff option.
I also get that end. I mean, its only half your bonus, so when you get it at level 4, that is +1/+1 IF it is your enemy. At level 10, you can use instant enemy and provide up to +3/+3, but the duration is weak and a move action is sometimes prohibitive. Not a bad ability, but not as good as an AC IMO. Anyway I was just throwing out things I had seen on these boards. Search for wildshape focused homebrews, you will find quite a few. Search for a druid that focuses entirely on his AC as a homebrew... not a lot there.
As to the summoner comparison (which is sadly hard to avoid). The Hunter spell list is considerably worse than the summoner who gets a whole host of spells at earlier levels, and the eidolon is a beast.
Teamwork feats could maybe bridge this gap? But how can we know if we don't know what those mystery TBA teamwork feats are?
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I did a short mock adventure with a Hunter the other day. Nothing fancy, just a lvl 5 Hunter vs some goblins, goblin dogs and wolves.
I think the Hunter needs Wild Empathy, both its parent classes have it, and it fits the class.
Second: I'd rather see the Hunter gain Trapmaking than their wild aspect. Trapmaking woulod give the hunter some battlefield control and nifty tricks. It would also make the class more suited for "solo" play or smaller party play since it would have the Animal Companion, some battlefield control and some spells for buffs and heals.
A two-man party of a Hunter and Summoner should be able to play through an AP with relatively little trouble. Right now the Hunter has an unthematic ability.
Oh I would put it in the asset column as well, but I think the people who have discussed the ranger in this way have avoided making any investments into their companion. personally I love them. The other use of Hunters Bond isn't bad, but I like pets so I always go that route anyway.
I think that the issue has always been that archtypes that replace the AC never give enough in exchange, and I know there are players who don't want to use an AC and also don't like the Hunter's Bond buff option.
I also get that end. I mean, its only half your bonus, so when you get it at level 4, that is +1/+1 IF it is your enemy. At level 10, you can use instant enemy and provide up to +3/+3, but the duration is weak and a move action is sometimes prohibitive. Not a bad ability, but not as good as an AC IMO. Anyway I was just throwing out things I had seen on these boards. Search for wildshape focused homebrews, you will find quite a few. Search for a druid that focuses entirely on his AC as a homebrew... not a lot there.
As to the summoner comparison (which is sadly hard to avoid). The Hunter spell list is considerably worse than the summoner who gets a whole host of spells at earlier levels, and the eidolon is a beast.
Teamwork feats could maybe bridge this gap? But how can we know if we don't know what those mystery TBA teamwork feats are?
Well, there is Hunter's Howl before 10 and the duration of fights is usually not a problem once you have a headband to buff your Wisdom.
For the spell list: the summoner does get early haste and summons, I suppose. Maybe it would be cool to see the hunter get early Nature's ally (and also teamwork feats to the for free)? I am willing to call the Druid spell list pretty strong, though.
@dudemeister
I would rather a name change than trapmaking. I always found that option clumsy.
Oh I would put it in the asset column as well, but I think the people who have discussed the ranger in this way have avoided making any investments into their companion. personally I love them. The other use of Hunters Bond isn't bad, but I like pets so I always go that route anyway.
I think that the issue has always been that archtypes that replace the AC never give enough in exchange, and I know there are players who don't want to use an AC and also don't like the Hunter's Bond buff option.
I also get that end. I mean, its only half your bonus, so when you get it at level 4, that is +1/+1 IF it is your enemy. At level 10, you can use instant enemy and provide up to +3/+3, but the duration is weak and a move action is sometimes prohibitive. Not a bad ability, but not as good as an AC IMO. Anyway I was just throwing out things I had seen on these boards. Search for wildshape focused homebrews, you will find quite a few. Search for a druid that focuses entirely on his AC as a homebrew... not a lot there.
As to the summoner comparison (which is sadly hard to avoid). The Hunter spell list is considerably worse than the summoner who gets a whole host of spells at earlier levels, and the eidolon is a beast.
Teamwork feats could maybe bridge this gap? But how can we know if we don't know what those mystery TBA teamwork feats are?
Well, there is Hunter's Howl before 10 and the duration of fights is usually not a problem once you have a headband to buff your Wisdom.
For the spell list: the summoner does get early haste and summons, I suppose. Maybe it would be cool to see the hunter get early Nature's ally (and also teamwork feats to the for free)? I am willing to call the Druid spell list pretty strong, though.
@dudemeister
I would rather a name change than trapmaking. I always found that option clumsy.
The druid list is good, but the summoner is getting early access to a LOT of spells, often 2 levels earlier. That is a big fat deal right there. If they made a Hunter List, well then we can talk, but they are trying to avoid that, and doing so makes any 6 level caster weaker in this book than in previous books.
I did a short mock adventure with a Hunter the other day. Nothing fancy, just a lvl 5 Hunter vs some goblins, goblin dogs and wolves.
I think the Hunter needs Wild Empathy, both its parent classes have it, and it fits the class.
Yep, good reasoning. I agree.
Second: I'd rather see the Hunter gain Trapmaking than their wild aspect. Trapmaking woulod give the hunter some battlefield control and nifty tricks. It would also make the class more suited for "solo" play or smaller party play since it would have the Animal Companion, some battlefield control and some spells for buffs and heals.
A two-man party of a Hunter and Summoner should be able to play through an AP with relatively little trouble. Right now the Hunter has an unthematic ability.
I think yo u make another good point here. Wild aspect seems less base-theme and more archetypal, at least to me, whereas Trapmaking befits a "Hunter".
I think trapping is a great direction to take it, but I think they wussed out with the traps on the Ranger archetype. I think they were afraid to make it too good, so they made it kind of crappy. But there are very simple things that could be done to the traps to make them far more desirable, and if they did that, I would really enjoy it and might consider actually making a hunter.
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I did a short mock adventure with a Hunter the other day. Nothing fancy, just a lvl 5 Hunter vs some goblins, goblin dogs and wolves.
I think the Hunter needs Wild Empathy, both its parent classes have it, and it fits the class.
Second: I'd rather see the Hunter gain Trapmaking than their wild aspect. Trapmaking woulod give the hunter some battlefield control and nifty tricks. It would also make the class more suited for "solo" play or smaller party play since it would have the Animal Companion, some battlefield control and some spells for buffs and heals.
A two-man party of a Hunter and Summoner should be able to play through an AP with relatively little trouble. Right now the Hunter has an unthematic ability.
Actually they do get wild empathy, but at second level which feels really odd for a class so focused on animals and its animal companion. It feels like something they should not only get at first but something that should be vastly better then the regular, maybe allowing them to use it more then once per day on a creature or as a bluff or intimidate check as well.
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I have been watching both of their forum trackers (along with Stephen and Erik). They have said radical things like swapping or dropping classes entirely is out, as is completely changing a concept (like Warpriest to Priest). Name changes have not been specifically called out though.
Edit: Erik suggests that a good enough name will be considered in fact.
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Anyway this is off-topic.
I think if the class is a hunter it should get traps, I think it should work something like this:
Hunter's Traps (Ex) 3 + Wis Mod times per day: As a standard action a Hunter may lay a trap within 30 ft. This trap takes up a single 5 ft square. Any creature that steps into that square takes 1d6 + Hunter's Wisdom Modifier slashing/piercing or bludgeoning damage (chosen when trap is set). This damage increases by 1d6 at third level and every two levels thereafter. These traps can be disabled with a successful Disable Device check and 1d4 rounds of work. The DC is 10 + Hunter level + Wisdom Modifier. The hunter and his companion do not set off the trap. The trap lasts for an hour per level. A hunter may recollect the pieces of an unsparing trap as a full-round action.
Hunter's Talents At level 2 and every two levels thereafter the Hunter may choose a talent. (Some of these can be drawn from the skirmishes ranger), other ones can include changing the traps to energy damage. Making hidden traps, increasing the trap size and shape of the blast when activated and perhaps selective traps.
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Erik outranks Sean (and is more recent ;) )
The basic point is the concept and the name are opposites. This guy befriends animals, Tarzan and Cheetah. He isn't a Hunter. You can give him ways to become a hunter, like traps and that works.
Personally I like the concept as is and would rather change the name to fit it. The Slayer and Ranger are both far better at hunting.
I hunt and have a tiger friend, and I am preeeeeetty sure the tiger is the reason that I hunt. What is your point?
I hunt and have a tiger friend, and I am preeeeeetty sure the tiger is the reason that I hunt. What is your point?And your ram, auroch or giant frog companion?
Listen: I would never cheat on Mike with some other animal companion hussy.
What we have is special.
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What about expanding the shared teamwork feat benefit to include all feats the hunter knows. The companion whould have a boatload of feats this would increase his power while still honestly being less than the power of wildshape +7-9 lvl spells.
Greatsword Gorillas.
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I hunt and have a tiger friend, and I am preeeeeetty sure the tiger is the reason that I hunt. What is your point?And your ram, auroch or giant frog companion?
What about being friends with animals prevents you from also hunting other animals? Duck hunting, fox hunting, and falconing all spring to mind. As does the archetype of the wild man with the giant bear hunting the frozen north (translate that to the mountains, plains, or swamp for your examples). Tack onto that a bit of shamanistic magic, and you've got yourself exactly what was described in the flavor text for the class and a fitting concept for a "hunter".
I'm seriously having trouble understanding what's wrong with the name here.
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This class is all about forging a bond with one animal and working perfectly in tandem with that animal. It's class features gear it as being an animal handler. As a professional animal handler myself, this awesome. Nothing it does suggests hunting, it doesn't preclude it, vut compared to Ranger with their bonuses to tracking, their more scouting/hunting specific list of animal companions and favored enemy, or the Slayer with its focus on stealth and taking down a target...
Well, the Hunter will be in third place amongst base classes when it comes down to actually hunting. Arguably fifth if hunting humanoids since Investigator and Inquisitor are quite geared toward that.
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I'm seriously having trouble understanding what's wrong with the name here.
A ground of human hunters emerge from the woods. They do not appear to be holy men or thieves. They are neither running nor dallying. THEY DON'T HAVE A BUNCH OF DIRE TIGERS TAGGING ALONG AFTER THEM.
When I first read the class my impression was that the Hunter was some sort of wildling who mimicked natural predators for combat prowess. Being a general game hunter is easily covered by the Ranger class so in my head I imagined Hunter as someone who's power source is more feral.
From that standpoint some ideas;
1) Make Animal Focus DO something. It could easily be a quasi-were-shape kind of thing. Grow claws, grow fins, get pounce, run faster. Animal Focus is currently really piddly.
2)Make Animal Focus do something a lot. If the minute was not consecutive, Animal Focus could be a lot better. As is it is easily blown on one weak encounter. Its the closest thing it has to a signiture ability so really I'd like to do it more often.
3) Make Animal Focus or the Animal Companion limited to predators. Because it's the Hunter class. Bull and Frog can be replaced with Shark. Monkey can stay those things are vicious.
4) Seriously do something with Animal Focus. It vaguely looks modeled after Rage so go along those lines. Make a Focus rounds per day pool of 3+Whocares+2 each level. And give us Animal powers that we can take that apply while we're Foked. (using Animal Focus) I love the idea of Animal Focus because it's less messy than giving it Wild Shape but It could do so much more.
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Erik outranks Sean (and is more recent ;) )
Or maybe I said we're not changing the names because I want people to spend their effort on analyzing and playtesting the mechanics of the class, instead of trying to get its name changed. :p
There are many things in place for this playtest that may not apply to the final book (such as the no-multiclassing rule).
Heyas Sean,
Are there going to be redos like was done for the arcanist for the other classes?
It was hinted at, but just wondering whether to wait for mew mechanics to test, or do so with these?
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Heyas Sean,
Are there going to be redos like was done for the arcanist for the other classes?
Yep, as we mentioned in last week's design blog.
It was hinted at, but just wondering whether to wait for mew mechanics to test, or do so with these?
Any playtest feedback you can provide on the current version of the classes or the updated version is appreciated. :)
Heyas Sean,
Are there going to be redos like was done for the arcanist for the other classes?Yep, as we mentioned in last week's design blog.
It was hinted at, but just wondering whether to wait for mew mechanics to test, or do so with these?Any playtest feedback you can provide on the current version of the classes or the updated version is appreciated. :)
A redo eh? If it's able to be as extensive for the hunter as for the arcanist, may I suggest taking a gander at my Hunter Redesign I just posted in the homebrew forum?
(I'll post the write up here for ease of use, but it's probably best to keep comments irrelevant to the playtest in the homebrew thread)
Instinct Hunter
Alignment: Any neutral.
Hit Die: d10.
Alternate Classes: Gunslinger and Ranger.
Starting Wealth: 4d6 X 10 gp (average 140 gp).
Saves: Good Fortitude and Reflex, Poor Will.
Class Skills
The hunter’s class skills are Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Handle Animal (Cha), Heal (Wis), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (dungeoneering) (Int), Knowledge (geography) (Int), Knowledge (nature) (Int), Perception (Wis), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Spellcraft (Int), Stealth (Dex), Survival (Wis), and Swim (Str).
Skill Ranks per Level: 4 + Int modifier.
1 Animal Companion, Hunter, Instinct
2 Track, Wild Empathy, Hunt
3 Hunter Tactics, Teamwork Feat
4 Hunt
5 Woodland Stride, Favored Terrain
6 Hunt, Teamwork Feat
7 Trackless Step
8 Hunt, Swift Tracker, Shared Hunt
9 Teamwork Feat
0 Greater Hunts, Hunt
1 2nd Favored Terrain
2 Hunt, Teamwork Feat
3 Camouflage
4 Hunt
5 Teamwork Feat
6 Hunt
7 Hide in Plain Sight, 3rd Favored Terrain
8 Hunt, Teamwork Feat
9 Truest Companion
0 Master of the Hunt
Animal Companion (Ex): At 1st level, a hunter forms a bond with an animal companion. A hunter may begin play with any of the animals listed in Animal Choices (Core Rulebook 53). This animal is a loyal companion that accompanies the hunter on her adventures. The hunter’s effective druid level is equal to her hunter level.
If a character receives an animal companion from more than one source, her effective druid levels stack for the purposes of determining the statistics and abilities of the companion. If a hunter releases her companion from service or her animal companion perishes, she may gain a new one by performing a ceremony requiring 24 uninterrupted hours of prayer in the environment where the sought companion typically lives.
Hunter: At 1st level, a Hunter can, as a standard action denote an enemy as his Hunted target. If this target is not within his line of sight, he must be able to identify the target. This can be done by observing the target’s tracks, habitat, belongings, or similar. After observing, the hunter must make a Survival check with a DC equal to 10 + the targets Hit Die to succeed at identification. Whenever he is following the tracks of his Shared Hunt target, the Hunter and his animal companion can take 10 on his Survival skill checks while moving at normal speed, without penalty. In addition, both the Hunter and animal companion receive a +1 insight bonus on Attack and Damage, Bluff, Knowledge, Perception, Sense Motive, and Survival checks against the Shared Hunt. A Hunter can have no more than one Shared Hunt target at a time. He can dismiss this effect at any time as a free action, but he cannot select a new target for 1 hour. If the Hunter sees proof that his target is dead, he can select a new target on his turn using a standard action. At first level the bonus is +1, this increases to +1 at fifth level and every 5 levels thereafter.
Instinct: At the start of each day, a hunter gains a number of instinct points equal to her Wisdom modifier (minimum 1). Her panache goes up or down throughout the day, but usually cannot go higher than her Wisdom modifier (minimum 1), though feats and magic items can affect this maximum. A hunter spends instinct to perform hunts (see below), and regains instinct in the following ways.
Critical Hit against a Target: Each time the hunter confirms a critical hit against his hunted target while in the heat of combat, she regains 1 instinct point. Confirming a critical hit on a helpless or unaware creature or on a creature that has fewer Hit Dice than half the hunter’s character level does not restore instinct.
Killing Blow against a Target: When the hunter reduces their hunted target to 0 or fewer hit points while in the heat of combat, she regains 1 instinct point. Destroying an unattended object, reducing a helpless or unaware creature to 0 or fewer hit points, or reducing a creature that has fewer Hit Dice than half the hunter’s character level to 0 or fewer hit points does not restore any grit.
Hunts: Starting at 2nd level and every 2 levels thereafter, a hunter gains a Hunt to help them track down and combat their targets. A hunter cannot select an individual Hunt more than once. Typically, a hunter must spend instinct points to perform Hunts. Most Hunts grant the hunter a momentary bonus or effect, but some provide longer-lasting effects. Some Hunts remain in effect as long as the hunter has at least 1 instinct point. Unless otherwise noted, a hunt can be performed multiple successive times, as long as the appropriate amount of instinct is spent to perform the hunt.
Hunter da sea!: As long as a hunter has at least 1 point of Instinct, he gains a +4 bonus to swim checks. As a swift action, he may spend 1 point to gain a swim speed of 20 ft and the ability to hold his breath twice as long as normal for a number of minutes equal to his Wisdom modifer.
Rough and Tumble: As an immediate action, a hunter may spend 1 point of Instinct to reduce the effective distance of a fall by 5 feet per 2 levels. This stacks with the acrobatics check to reduce falling damage.
In the Jungle: As long as a hunter has 1 point of instinct, he gains a +4 bonus on acrobatics checks to cross narrow surfaces or uneven ground and jump. As a swift action, he may spend 1 point of instinct to gain a climb speed of 20 feet. This speed may be used to brachiate. By hanging beneath or within a canopy of trees (or similar structures with many limbs), the hunter can swing hand over hand and move at a speed equal to its climb speed. It follows the rules for climbing while moving in this fashion, but the base Climb DC for brachiation is 10. The trees that the hunter uses for this movement must have numerous limbs that can support its weight. Any tree that the hunter can climb without causing it to bend is suitable for brachiation.
Long Hunt: As long as a hunter has 1 point of instinct, he may go twice as long as normal without food or sleep. As a swift action, he may spend 1 point to remove an instance of the fatigued or exhausted condition from himself.
The Hunt Endures:As long as a hunter has 1 point of instinct, he is considered to have the Endurance feat. As an immediate action, he may spend 1 point to gain resistance to 5 to Fire and Cold for a number of rounds equal to his Wisdom modifier. At 10th level he may spend 2 points to gain Resistance 10 instead.
Night Owl: When a hunter has at least 1 point of Instinct (Grit) remaining they gain low light vision. They may spend 1 point to gain darkvision 30 feet for a number of minutes equal to their Wisdom modifier. If the hunter already possesses these vision types, their low light vision doubles in range and their darkvision increases by 30 feet.
Heightened Senses: When a hunter has at least 1 point of Instinct (Grit) remaining they gain a +2 bonus to perception checks. They may spend 1 point to gain scent for a number of minutes equal to their Wisdom modifier.
Rally: As a swift action, a hunter may spend 1 point of Instinct to grant their animal companion an additional move action on their next turn.
Tough Hide: As an immediate action, a hunter may spend 1 point of Instinct to grant their animal companion +2 Natural Armor for a number of rounds equal to their Wisdom modifier. If the hunter is adjacent to the companion, this bonus increases to +4
Track (Ex): At 2nd level, a hunter adds half her level to Survival skill checks made to follow tracks.
Wild Empathy (Ex): At 2nd level, a hunter can improve the initial attitude of an animal. This ability functions just like a Diplomacy check to improve the attitude of a person (see Chapter 4 of the Core Rulebook). The hunter rolls 1d20 and adds her hunter level and her Charisma bonus to determine the wild empathy check result. The typical domestic animal has a starting attitude of indifferent, while wild animals are usually unfriendly.
To use wild empathy, the hunter and the animal must be within 30 feet of one another under normal visibility conditions. Generally, influencing an animal in this way takes 1 minute, but as with influencing people, it might take more or less time.
The hunter can also use this ability to influence a magical beast with an Intelligence score of 1 or 2, but she takes a –4 penalty on the check.
Hunter Tactics (Ex): At 3rd level, the hunter’s animal companion is treated as if it possessed the same teamwork feats as the hunter for the purpose of determining whether the hunter or the companion receives a bonus from her teamwork feats. The hunter’s and companion’s positioning and actions must still meet the prerequisites listed in the teamwork feat for them to receive the listed bonus.
Teamwork Feat: At 3rd level, and every three levels thereafter, the hunter gains a bonus teamwork feat in addition to those gained from normal advancement. The hunter must meet the prerequisites of the selected bonus feat.
As a standard action, the hunter can choose to learn a new bonus teamwork feat in place of the most recent bonus teamwork feat she has already learned. In effect, the hunter loses the bonus feat in exchange for the new one. She can only change the most recent teamwork feat gained, and must meet the prerequisites for the newly selected feat. A hunter can change her most recent teamwork feat a number of times per day equal to her Wisdom modifier. Whenever she gains a new teamwork feat, the previous teamwork feat becomes permanent.
Woodland Stride (Ex): Starting at 5th level, a hunter may move through any sort of undergrowth (such as natural thorns, briars, overgrown areas, and similar terrain) at her normal speed and without taking damage or suffering any other impairment.
Thorns, briars, and overgrown areas that are enchanted or magically manipulated to impede motion will still affect her.
Favored Terrain: At 5rd level, a hunter may select a type of terrain from Table: Ranger Favored Terrains. The hunter gains a +2 bonus on initiative checks and Knowledge (geography),Perception, Stealth, and Survival skill checks when he is in this terrain. A hunter traveling through his favored terrain normally leaves no trail and cannot be tracked (though he may leave a trail if he so chooses).
At 11th level and every six levels thereafter, the hunter may select an additional favored terrain. In addition, at each such interval, the skill bonus and initiative bonus in any one favored terrain (including the one just selected, if so desired), increases by +2.
If a specific terrain falls into more than one category of favored terrain, the hunter's bonuses do not stack; he simply uses whichever bonus is higher.
Trackless Step: Starting at 7th level, a hunter leaves no trail in their favored terrains and cannot be tracked through them. She may choose to leave a trail if so desired.
Shared Hunt:At 7th level, a hunter may spend a point of instinct to grant her animal companion the benefit of her hunts for a number of minutes equal to her Wisdom modifier. The animal companion gains an Instinct pool equal to half their Hit Die. This pool may be refilled by the same methods as the hunter (using the hunter’s target), but cannot go above half their Hit Die. If this ability is used multiple times a day, the pool retains its previous values.
Swift Tracker (Ex): At 8th level, a hunter can move at her normal speed while using Survival to follow tracks without taking the normal –5 penalty. She takes only a –10 penalty (instead of the normal –20) when moving at up to twice normal speed while tracking.
Greater Hunts: At 10th level, and every two levels thereafter, a hunter can choose one of the following Greater Hunts in place of a Hunt.
Fierce animal: As a swift action, a hunter may spend 1 point of Instinct to grant their animal companion an additional attack when making a full attack action on their next turn.
Fast as the Wind: As long as a hunter has 1 point of instinct, she gains the benefit of evasion. As an immediate action, a hunter may spend 1 point of Instinct to gain a bonus to a Reflex save equal to her Wisdom Modifier.
Intuition:As an immediate action, a hunter may spend 1 point of instinct to act in a surprise round. A hunter is not flat footed even if they have not yet acted in the surprise round.
Here For You: After your animal companion makes a save, but before the results are revealed, the Hunter may spend 1 point of instinct to allow them to reroll the save and add the hunter’s Wisdom modifier to the roll. The second roll must be taken even if it is worse.
Trapper: As a full round action, a hunter may spend 1 point of instinct to lay one of the following traps. Traps occupy a single five foot square and typically require the enemy to make a save. The DC for this save is equal to 10 + ½ the hunter’s level + their Wisdom modifier.
Snare Trap: The trap constricts around a limb or other part of the triggering creature’s body (Reflex avoids). The creature cannot move from the location of the trap, unless the hunter included a “leash” when setting the trap, in which case the creature is limited to the length of the leash. The trapped creature can escape with an Escape Artist check (DC equal to the trap’s DC) as a full-round action. The trap or its leash has a number of hit points equal to 1/2 the hunter’s level, or can be burst as a full-round action with a DC 25 Strength check. The trap can hold up to a Medium creature; each extra daily use of the hunter’s trap ability spent when the trap is set increases the maximum size of creature the trap can hold. At the hunter’s option, if there is a tall object or structure nearby, she can have the trap lift the creature.
Pit Trap: This simple pit is covered over with leaves or appropriate materials for the area. It's 5 feet deep plus 5 feet for every 4 hunter levels. A victim that succeeds at a Reflex save doesn't fall into the pit. The hunter can typically only set this trap in terrain with soft ground.
Spike Trap: Often sharpened sticks, these short spikes are concealed in the ground. Any creature who steps on the spikes takes 1d6 points of damage for every 3 hunter levels and their speed is reduced by half. A succesful reflex save halves the damage and negates the speed reduction. A successful DC 25 Heal check removes the speed reduction, as does any magical healing.
Tripwire: A taut wire stretched between two vertical surfaces knocks the target prone unless it succeeds at a Reflex save. A running or charging creature takes a –6 penalty on its save.
Camouflage: A hunter of 12th level or higher can use the Stealth skill to hide in any of his favored terrains, even if the terrain doesn't grant cover or concealment.
Hide in Plain Sight: While in any of his favored terrains, a hunter of 17th level or higher can use the Stealth skill even while being observed.
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One thing that I think would help out the hunters AC is to modify the Armor Proficiency feat. AC's should not have to pay a feat tax to wear heavy armor. Animals are trained with the armor their Master selects for them. It makes no rational sense to make a AC learn to wear two types of armor it will never wear to be allowed to wear the armor it will ware.
Greater Share spells with Companion: All Buff and heal spells cast effect both the Hunter and the Hunters companion.
Give the Hunter Favored Terrain at 5th, 10th and 15th level but make it so the Bonuses effect both the hunter and the companion.
Reduce the level of Animal growth to 4th and strong jaw to 3rd as they are on the rangers spell list.
Give the Hunter Favored Target as a swift
and give the Hunter Bane vs favored target at 7th
Being able to use existing AC choices, but using a revised advancement chart that gets the AC up to 20 HD might be a good direction to go. In addition to teamwork feats, the hunter needs some kind of generally applicable bonus they can share with their companion, just as the cavalier has their banner, the ranger has favored enemy, and so forth.
Erik outranks Sean (and is more recent ;) )
The basic point is the concept and the name are opposites. This guy befriends animals, Tarzan and Cheetah. He isn't a Hunter. You can give him ways to become a hunter, like traps and that works.
Personally I like the concept as is and would rather change the name to fit it. The Slayer and Ranger are both far better at hunting.
So funny, I'm suggesting in the Slayer thread that the Slayer should lose the stalky stuff as the Hunter is more the …. Hunter.
Here I'm of the opinion that the Hunter shouldn't have an animal companion necessarily, as the name is Hunter, in much the same way I don't think the Slayer necessarily needs trapskills and sneak attack because he's a Slayer, not an ambusher….