An alternative might be to take toughness. That works even if you multi-class too.
No, you either get a hit point plus a skill point, or an alternate bonus. You can't mix and match.
Is there a FAQ or other rules source you can point me to to support your assertion?
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I believe it's there in the feats text. You get a hit point and and a skill point. That is the only option offered.No, you either get a hit point plus a skill point, or an alternate bonus. You can't mix and match.Is there a FAQ or other rules source you can point me to to support your assertion?
The feat text is:
Fast LearnerYou progress gain extra versatility.
Prerequisites: Int 13, human.
Benefit: When you gain a level in a favored class, you gain both +1 hit point and +1 skill rank instead of choosing either one or the other benefit or you can choose an alternate class reward.
I believe that you can choose alternate class and either of the hp or skillpoint
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I believe it's there in the feats text. You get a hit point and and a skill point. That is the only option offered.No, you either get a hit point plus a skill point, or an alternate bonus. You can't mix and match.Is there a FAQ or other rules source you can point me to to support your assertion?The feat text is:
Fast Learner
You progress gain extra versatility.
Prerequisites: Int 13, human.
Benefit: When you gain a level in a favored class, you gain both +1 hit point and +1 skill rank instead of choosing either one or the other benefit or you can choose an alternate class reward.I believe that you can choose alternate class and either of the hp or skillpoint
I would suggest, till an official ruling can be found, it is ALWAYS prudent to go with the conservative option.
Of course in this case it could only be spotted if you mention it or during a particularly in depth audit.
There have been a couple of discussions about this in the Rules forums and no definitive answer has ever been given. What the sentence says depends on how you parse it.I believe it's there in the feats text. You get a hit point and and a skill point. That is the only option offered.No, you either get a hit point plus a skill point, or an alternate bonus. You can't mix and match.Is there a FAQ or other rules source you can point me to to support your assertion?
Could you explain how this could be parsed to allow an alternate FCB and a hit point/skill point? I honestly don't see how you can get that, except maybe from just reading it too quickly.
Last sentence if the feat RDN.
There's only one sentence in that feat, and I've read over it several times. I really, truly, honestly don't see how you could parse that sentence to allow both an alternate FCB and a skill point/hit point. The only way to read that sentence that I can see is:
"When you gain a level in a favored class, [you gain both +1 hit point and +1 skill rank instead of choosing either one or the other benefit] OR [you can choose an alternate class reward.]"
If someone can demonstrate how you can read that differently, I'm all ears.
...Except that's not what the feat says to do. I could see how you would get that interpretation if you heard about the feat second-hand, but if you read the text, that's not how it's explained.
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The real problem is there is a lack of punctuation in the feat, there needs to be a comma, compare this:
Fast Learner
You progress gain extra versatility.
Prerequisites: Int 13, human.
Benefit: When you gain a level in a favored class,
you gain both +1 hit point and +1 skill rank instead
of choosing either one or the other benefit or you can
choose an alternate class reward.
to this:
Fast Learner
You progress gain extra versatility.
Prerequisites: Int 13, human.
Benefit: When you gain a level in a favored class,
you gain both +1 hit point and +1 skill rank instead
of choosing either one or the other benefit, or you can
choose an alternate class reward.
grammatically, the first doesn't make since. The feat specifically says however that you can do 1+2 instead of choosing 1 or 2 or you can do 3, no where does it say you can do 1+3 or 2+3.
From a design standpoint, doesn't the stricter reading make this feat, which has two pre requisites, objectively, hands down worse than toughness?
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From a design standpoint, doesn't the stricter reading make this feat, which has two pre requisites, objectively, hands down worse than toughness?
yes, except that toughness does not qualify you for
Improvisation (Human)
You can figure out how to do almost anything.
Prerequisites: Int 13, Fast Learner, human.
Benefit: You gain a +2 bonus on all skill checks for skills you have no ranks in. Furthermore, you can use all trained skills untrained.
From a design standpoint, doesn't the stricter reading make this feat, which has two pre requisites, objectively, hands down worse than toughness?
Many people agree with that actually.
Essentially it works like this. You build your character with class X. You take FCB Y (skill point, hit point, or other). Then you take the feat and take another FCB (hit point, skill point, or other).
I agree with this interpretation with a slight change and thats that you could not choose the same FCB twice per level.(HP+HP, SP+SP, ACB+ACB), but you could choose Hp+SP, Sp+ACB, HP+ACB.
If the alternate racial class bonus are equal to the other two FCB then this entire argument should be a non-issue. But many of us dont think all FCB are created equal(as evidenced by other threads).
I believe the reason why many folks are hesitant to say the orignal feat work that way (even the author) may be because some players were attempting to make the ACB+ ACB combo work to give their PC a faster mechanism to gain certain abilities.
The wording of the feat could have been a bit more clearer(simpler) for those within the community who may not have a higher understanding on the nuances of English grammar.
There have been a few previous threads on this:
Fast Learner
You progress gain extra versatility.
Prerequisites: Int 13, human.
Benefit: When you gain a level in a favored class, you gain both +1 hit point and +1 skill rank instead of choosing either one or the other benefit or you can choose an alternate class reward.
My read on it (and the way it's applied in the Tulsa area) is:
When you gain a level in a favored class, you gain:
a) both +1 hit point and +1 skill rank instead of choosing either one, or;
b) the other benefit or;
c) you can choose an alternate class reward.
Hopefully one of the devs will clarify.
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Maybe this will help make the text clearer. For reference, here's the existing text:
When you gain a level in a favored class, you gain both +1 hit point and +1 skill rank instead of choosing either one or the other benefit or you can choose an alternate class reward.
Now, see that phrase "instead of choosing either one or the other benefit"? That's clearly just reinforcing the "gain both" that came before it, and is therefore redundant - meaning we can remove it without changing the meaning. If you take it out, you're left with this:
When you gain a level in a favored class, you gain both +1 hit point and +1 skill rank or you can choose an alternate class reward.
See how clear that is now that you don't forget the structure of the first part by the time you get to the second part? You gain both X and Y or you can choose Z. That's it. You gain both X and Y or you can choose Z.
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There have been a few previous threads on this:
Fast Learner
You progress gain extra versatility.
Prerequisites: Int 13, human.
Benefit: When you gain a level in a favored class, you gain both +1 hit point and +1 skill rank instead of choosing either one or the other benefit or you can choose an alternate class reward.My read on it (and the way it's applied in the Tulsa area) is:
When you gain a level in a favored class, you gain:
a) both +1 hit point and +1 skill rank instead of choosing either one, or;
b) the other benefit or;
c) you can choose an alternate class reward.Hopefully one of the devs will clarify.
I am very curious what a PC actually gets if they choose option B under that reading.
That is not a valid parsing of that sentence. The phrase "the other benefit" has to be referring to something already introduced in the text, but you're treating it as being an alternative to the only thing that's been introduced so far. Your reading of the sentence is self-disproving.
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I'm curious, is "Alternate Class Reward" actually defined in any source?
Because if those exact words are not used in any other text, then by RAW, and thus in PFS, you cannot even choose your racial favored class bonus if you have this feat.
EDIT: Ok, the Core rulebook doesn't seem to use the text class reward, but the advanced players guide does.
I'm curious, is "Alternate Class Reward" actually defined in any source?
Because if those exact words are not used in any other text, then by RAW, and thus in PFS, you cannot even choose your racial favored class bonus if you have this feat.
EDIT: Ok, the Core rulebook doesn't seem to use the text class reward, but the advanced players guide does.
Unless I have miscited, p 77 of ARG. Corrections appreciated!
There have been a few previous threads on this:
Fast Learner
You progress gain extra versatility.
Prerequisites: Int 13, human.
Benefit: When you gain a level in a favored class, you gain both +1 hit point and +1 skill rank instead of choosing either one or the other benefit or you can choose an alternate class reward.My read on it (and the way it's applied in the Tulsa area) is:
When you gain a level in a favored class, you gain:
a) both +1 hit point and +1 skill rank instead of choosing either one, or;
b) the other benefit or;
c) you can choose an alternate class reward.Hopefully one of the devs will clarify.
I am very curious what a PC actually gets if they choose option B under that reading.
That is not a valid parsing of that sentence. The phrase "the other benefit" has to be referring to something already introduced in the text, but you're treating it as being an alternative to the only thing that's been introduced so far. Your reading of the sentence is self-disproving.
Jiggy,
Good catch!
My post should have read:
When you gain a level in a favored class, you gain:
a) both +1 hit point and +1 skill rank instead of choosing either one or the other benefit, or;
b) you can choose an alternate class reward.
I'll edit the original for clarity.
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My post should have read:
When you gain a level in a favored class, you gain:
a) both +1 hit point and +1 skill rank instead of choosing either one or the other benefit, or;
b) you can choose an alternate class reward.I'll edit the original for clarity.
Ah, okay. Yes, that would be the correct reading of the text. :)
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Unless I have miscited, p 77 of ARG. Corrections appreciated!I'm curious, is "Alternate Class Reward" actually defined in any source?
Because if those exact words are not used in any other text, then by RAW, and thus in PFS, you cannot even choose your racial favored class bonus if you have this feat.
EDIT: Ok, the Core rulebook doesn't seem to use the text class reward, but the advanced players guide does.
Alternate Class reward is mentioned on page 9, the feat is page 77.
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It makes no sense that one of the choices the feat would grant them is the alternate favored class reward, since PCs already have the option to take the alternate favored class reward. The only way the feat makes sense is if it's SP+HP, SP+AFCR, or HP+AFCR.
If the feat stopped after "you can gain both +1 HP and +1 skill", people would wonder if it took away the option of taking an alternate FCB, so they had to list that it was still an option.
It makes no sense that one of the choices the feat would grant them is the alternate favored class reward, since PCs already have the option to take the alternate favored class reward. The only way the feat makes sense is if it's SP+HP, SP+AFCR, or HP+AFCR.If the feat stopped after "you can gain both +1 HP and +1 skill", people would wonder if it took away the option of taking an alternate FCB, so they had to list that it was still an option.
Jiggy's got the history right!
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2p3m4?Fast-Learner
Alternate Class reward is mentioned on page 9, the feat is page 77.Unless I have miscited, p 77 of ARG. Corrections appreciated!I'm curious, is "Alternate Class Reward" actually defined in any source?
Because if those exact words are not used in any other text, then by RAW, and thus in PFS, you cannot even choose your racial favored class bonus if you have this feat.
EDIT: Ok, the Core rulebook doesn't seem to use the text class reward, but the advanced players guide does.
Thanks, Dylos! Was 50/50 on the page without the book handy ^_^
If my interpretation is incorrect, then that's fine. I just don't see it that way because if my interpretation is incorrect, the feat is just all kinds of bad.It makes no sense that one of the choices the feat would grant them is the alternate favored class reward, since PCs already have the option to take the alternate favored class reward. The only way the feat makes sense is if it's SP+HP, SP+AFCR, or HP+AFCR.If the feat stopped after "you can gain both +1 HP and +1 skill", people would wonder if it took away the option of taking an alternate FCB, so they had to list that it was still an option.
There are tons of really bad feats out there. Just because a feat looks practically useless, doesn't mean that's not how it works.
Besides, it could be useful for builds that are short on HP and skills, but don't need many other feats (like Sorcerers or Clerics).
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If my interpretation is incorrect, then that's fine. I just don't see it that way because if my interpretation is incorrect, the feat is just all kinds of bad.It makes no sense that one of the choices the feat would grant them is the alternate favored class reward, since PCs already have the option to take the alternate favored class reward. The only way the feat makes sense is if it's SP+HP, SP+AFCR, or HP+AFCR.If the feat stopped after "you can gain both +1 HP and +1 skill", people would wonder if it took away the option of taking an alternate FCB, so they had to list that it was still an option.
Yes, it is. You should always take Toughness instead, unless you either need it as a prereq or are planning to ALSO take Toughness. But that fact doesn't affect what the correct reading is.
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I have to agree with Jiggy on this... it is all kinds of versatile. Now, I wouldn't take the feat on a character that I know is going to be multiclassing, or that I will be taking advantage of the alternate favored-class feature (such as with a Sorcerer), but for any other human character that has 13INT, absolutely.
In fact, I wish I had taken it with both my Rogue and Gunslinger (the former I sort of messed up and left his STR at 13, while the former, I think I was going another way).
The fact that it stacks with Toughness is pretty great. And, it makes skill monkeys work without having to sacrifice HP. Really nice on my new Inquisitor to get 10 skill points per level!
Opening up the feat tree is nice, but may not be a big deal for most. Not going to be a big deal, either, for people that tank their INT (I rarely, if ever, do that... I LIKE skills!). Its all about the specifics. I think it is a really good feat, but others may not. It is no Power Attack/Deadly Aim, but definitely good. IMHO.
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It's not about the relative value of the options. It's about what the feat says.
The feat says you can either take both +1 HP and +1 skill rank or you can take a racial alternate.
That is what the feat says.
The thing that determines what a feat does is what the feat says, not what would fit into your understanding of Paizo's design philosophy. Only what the feat says.
What the feat says is that you either gain +1HP/+1skill or can choose an alternate.